T90 Titans League | Announcement

Michaerbse · Jun 21, 2022

Giuseppe551 said:
I want the fairest, simplest, and most time tested method to determine who's allowed to play in the league, which is a qualifier.

Just want to point out that this is a questionable take. Qualifiers are mostly single elimination (it should be obvious that huge qualifiers with group stages / round robin or whatever are not realistic). This means that a qualifier is highly dependend on seeding - yes, you also need a seeding for a qualifier. And it means that e.g. having one bad day or matching up against someone with a playstyle that does well against your playstyle may screw you over, even if you are an overall better player and would stand a much better chance in the actual league later on.
I don't think that letting people qualify based on previous tournament results is in any way less fair than a qualifier (seperating this point from the discussion around whether the ATP rankings are able to capture these tournament results in a meaningful way).

Giuseppe551 · Jun 21, 2022

Hold multiple qualifiers. RMS cup is doing just that. Or make them double elim like Starcraft mostly does.

@paradox303 @_Donatello_ Am I to understand that you think Major League Baseball, founded in 1876, is not a league just because it doesn't have a dumb relegation system?

TheCapybara · Jun 21, 2022

Influenza said:
dont the leagues in every other country also have like 2-3 competitive teams and like 10 ass ones that have no chance to win

Depends on the league and the sport.

_Donatello_ · Jun 22, 2022

Giuseppe551 said:
@paradox303 @_Donatello_ Am I to understand that you think Major League Baseball, founded in 1876, is not a league just because it doesn't have a dumb relegation system?

Yes it is a leauge, but outside of 4-5 American sports there are 10 000 leauges with a relegation system so its not so strange to include it here, infact looks like its exactly what T90 wanted.

And yes normaly there are a few teams dominating but depends on alot of factors like leauge and sports like ^mentioned

and if we got same 16 players here every season still it will prob be dominated by a few players anyway with some rare upsets, its imo healthy to switch the player base and good for more players to be able to got something to play for

Degaussed · Jun 22, 2022

_Donatello_ said:
Yes it is a leauge, but outside of 4-5 American sports there are 10 000 leauges with a relegation system so its not so strange to include it here, infact looks like its exactly what T90 wanted.

And yes normaly there are a few teams dominating but depends on alot of factors like leauge and sports like ^mentioned

and if we got same 16 players here every season still it will prob be dominated by a few players anyway with some rare upsets, its imo healthy to switch the player base and good for more players to be able to got something to play for

A few teams dominating, such as Viperchester United, Yo City, Liereyy Athletic and Club Hera :wink:

SotallyTober123 · Jun 22, 2022

You can check by players name in the list. I was curious about Sitaux. I am posting Sitaux's tournament results in the last one year here. If you don't count the TG results (which you shouldn't ofcourse for 1v1s), he does not seem to have the greatest year (except KOTD4) and hence his low rank in the ATP list.

We all know he's a great player and he deserves a spot in "top 24" players but this list is for "Tournament" points and people need to understand that.

I wonder if there would have been such a hue and cry if the RBW invitation was not a part of this league. People would have played and moved to their "deserved" leagues in the next one.

SouFire · Jun 22, 2022

jbr_aoe said:
Some minor points but Euro Rumble isn't included in the ATP points because it was more than a year ago. Secondly, both F1Re and Sitaux played in World Rumble (with Sitaux also in Visible Cup I believe).

I'm not saying that Sitaux isn't deserving of a place in the platinum league (I think he is) but I can make a case for about 40 players deserving a place.

ATP ranking is one of a few options that could have been used. It rewards participation and success in events at a variety of levels. People have been offering alternatives all day and suggesting that having to play smaller events will lead to burnout whilst suggesting that they should use the ladder (so make every single game they play matter to their tournament seedings). The hosts have chosen this. They are going to go ahead with it I expect, regardless of people suggesting that other similar systems are better (because that system favours one player or another).

Saying that anyone on the list is "far too weak" is incredibly disrespectful to everything they have achieved in the last 12 months.

Participating and trying to win are different things, they just sign up and play without studying maps or rivals, if they win those events they will get few beers for some days, but if they lose nothing happens, we have seen players doing terrible in such events(which is sad),but at some point it is understandable, preparation requieres time, the price pool of such events isn't worth the time and everyone should keep that on mind before thinking that playing lots of low profile events is comparable to compete in high cash/prestige events.

Disrespect is what we all are going to witness during the games if they don't fix things, but whatever if you are defending such system you probably can't judge unfairness.

Miral · Jun 22, 2022

I remember in some tournaments, players seeded each others.

Sincerely, that gave the more accurate seeding ever. Still, I undersand you want something objective, but it is far from being objective as there are a lot of discussion about the weight we give to the different tournaments.

OctavianAoe · Jun 22, 2022

Everything that was discussed the previous sites of this Thread, has brought down from Dave and Bulletchen in the Last Episode on their Podcast. Dave was mentioning that is somehow not fair to Reward Players that are more or less invisible to the scene over more than half a year, with the Top Seeds in a tournament based on Results they made couple of years ago. And Players that are regulary playing ladder, participating in lower tier Tournaments, and keeping the Competitive Scene alive getting always hammered, by the Players who show up to 2 Tournaments a year, feels also wrong imo.
Its never that easy and there will be always people upset or feeling treated unfair, whether you take this system or the previous.
@OGN made a pretty good statement when he said that it will take a lot of committement, not only from Hosts, Casters, and Sponsors also from Players. And now we are going to reward those who are showing that committement and not those Players who are showing up every now and then.
And ofcourse there are Players that have a lot to do in Privat, whether it is work, family, or other stuff and its not meant to be to offend them, and its acceptable and understandable, that they might just sign up for the tournaments that give the most money. But on the other hand you just cant ignore and not reward those who are thriving the Scene, by Playing on daily basis, and participating a lot in smaller events aswell.

TopperHarley · Jun 22, 2022

Just because Sitaux has won French Cup 2021, we shouldn’t act as if he’s the next Viper.

Yes, there were some upsets in Kotd4, but other than that there is no indication that he is consistently stronger than guys like Bruh, Valas, F1re, Saymyname etc

zShades · Jun 22, 2022

Seedings are just completely random. i feel very sorry for the people who spent a lot of time trying to make a numbered list of the partecipating players. but everything is extremely wrong. it doesnt make any sense to see players like Bact with almost no games in the recent months, he is listed 15. it makes 0 sense. Sitaux is almost out of the platinum league. 0 sense again. How can players like The Bloodless, getting almost platinum? A decent player, but still 2100 player cannot get a top 30-40 seeding. It's impossible, it doesnt make any sense; the same as Kozmonot. I never saw Bloodless or Kozmonot in any major tournament, but their Ranking is insane. Rubestock seeding like 5 spots above me. seriously? do u have any idea how complex and hard is to kill rubestock in tournaments? he has been playing amazingly in the BOA. then for me, personally, it seems like almost getting in KOTD4 main event is not counted as it should. Around 2200 for most of the times, and being absolutely destroyed in seeding by random ladder players. For me it's frustrating to see that, even if i cannot partecipate in this edition of t90 league. I just would like to clarify some things.

OctavianAoe · Jun 22, 2022

zShades said:
Seedings are just completely random. i feel very sorry for the people who spent a lot of time trying to make a numbered list of the partecipating players. but everything is extremely wrong. it doesnt make any sense to see players like Bact with almost no games in the recent months, he is listed 15. it makes 0 sense. Sitaux is almost out of the platinum league. 0 sense again. How can players like The Bloodless, getting almost platinum? A decent player, but still 2100 player cannot get a top 30-40 seeding. It's impossible, it doesnt make any sense; the same as Kozmonot. I never saw Bloodless or Kozmonot in any major tournament, but their Ranking is insane. Rubestock seeding like 5 spots above me. seriously? do u have any idea how complex and hard is to kill rubestock in tournaments? he has been playing amazingly in the BOA. then for me, personally, it seems like almost getting in KOTD4 main event is not counted as it should. Around 2200 for most of the times, and being absolutely destroyed in seeding by random ladder players. For me it's frustrating to see that, even if i cannot partecipate in this edition of t90 league. I just would like to clarify some things.

The ATP Sheet says Bact Participated in 19 Events the last 12 Months, Sitaux played 7 Events.
And it seems that you only participated in 2 Events that count to that the Ranking. So yes i understand it may be frustrating but it has a logic in it which is clear its benefiting those who are active.

paradox303 · Jun 22, 2022

zShades said:
Seedings are just completely random. i feel very sorry for the people who spent a lot of time trying to make a numbered list of the partecipating players. but everything is extremely wrong. it doesnt make any sense to see players like Bact with almost no games in the recent months, he is listed 15. it makes 0 sense. Sitaux is almost out of the platinum league. 0 sense again. How can players like The Bloodless, getting almost platinum? A decent player, but still 2100 player cannot get a top 30-40 seeding. It's impossible, it doesnt make any sense; the same as Kozmonot. I never saw Bloodless or Kozmonot in any major tournament, but their Ranking is insane. Rubestock seeding like 5 spots above me. seriously? do u have any idea how complex and hard is to kill rubestock in tournaments? he has been playing amazingly in the BOA. then for me, personally, it seems like almost getting in KOTD4 main event is not counted as it should. Around 2200 for most of the times, and being absolutely destroyed in seeding by random ladder players. For me it's frustrating to see that, even if i cannot partecipate in this edition of t90 league. I just would like to clarify some things.

Well the players you mentioned above like BacT, Koz and Bloodless still enter a lot of other tourneys outside of the top events, but I wouldn’t expect you to know that as you barely enter any yourself according to LP. These tourneys are not even big constraints in terms of time, most of them are a set a week (mostly always BO3) and there’s very little reason for top players not to be playing if you’re currently active in the game.

You don’t see a tennis player just play the majors every year. You wouldn’t see a golfer play the majors every year either. There is a large quantity of events for players to play and there is also that in aoe2.

I have absolutely no idea why you’re bringing up Ruben’s BOA performance in a team game tournament. It’s completely irrelevant 11

zShades · Jun 22, 2022

my comment had the purpose to highlight the performance. quality is always better than quantity. How can Rubestock be listed 70 and then he carries againt the best players in the world. same for Sitaux who has been playing solid 2k5 for so long. Playing b tier tournament should not be able to get more points than s tier. If i reach top 16 in a s tier i should get 10x times the points a player get being top 4 in a A or B tier event.
you can play 30 lower tournaments, it doesnt matter. When i played the Hera's colosseum i won undefeated against 2k2 players while i was 2k. did i get any points? no cuz the tournament was not classified in a tier, and that is completely fine and correct. now players get points everywhere with arena tournaments or with custom map tournaments. Only S tier events are meant to create a Tournament Ranking imo. one for 1vs1 and one for TG. that's how it is supposed to work.
does it makes sense to have 5 arena tournament per year and consider them S or A tier? absolutely 0 sense. in this way, people get a better or worse seeding, that does not reflect their real skills.

Potkeny · Jun 22, 2022

zShades said:
If i reach top 16 in a s tier i should get 10x times the points a player get being top 4 in a A or B tier event

And others think that if the A/B tier event has 4 top-10 players in the top4, it should count somewhat more than 1/10th of an "S" tier event.

Michaerbse · Jun 22, 2022

zShades said:
it doesnt make any sense to see players like Bact with almost no games in the recent months, he is listed 15. it makes 0 sense.

I mean just this sentence shows how little effort you put into considering facts. BacT still plays pretty much every tournament out there and - despite being quite inconsistent - he performs quite decent in some of them.

zShades said:
my comment had the purpose to highlight the performance. quality is always better than quantity. How can Rubestock be listed 70 and then he carries againt the best players in the world. same for Sitaux who has been playing solid 2k5 for so long. Playing b tier tournament should not be able to get more points than s tier. If i reach top 16 in a s tier i should get 10x times the points a player get being top 4 in a A or B tier event

The point about Rubenstock is pretty simple: He barely plays 1v1 tournaments and doesn't perform well in them. He didn't beat a single 2k+ player in a 1v1 tourney within the last year. He is certainly better than that but no rating system in the world is able to just "imagine" his actual rating/rank out of nowhere. TG performance is not considered in this rating (and not in any rating that is being used for seeding so far) and it mostly wouldn't make much sense to do so.
For Sitaux I think few people disagree that he is underrated.

Degaussed · Jun 22, 2022

zShades said:
it doesnt make any sense to see players like Bact with almost no games in the recent months, he is listed 15.

the ATP takes the past 12 months of tournaments into account. In that time, BacT has:

played in every S tier tournament
played in half the A tier tournaments
played in 6 out of 17 B tier tournaments
Of the 168 players who have participated in a tournament this year, only two players have entered MORE than BacT (Dragonstar and Classicpro)

it makes 0 sense. Sitaux is almost out of the platinum league. 0 sense again.

Sitaux has played in 7 tournaments. Based on the average score he's earned per tournament, he would be a top 20 player. But ATP rewards participation.

The Bloodless, getting almost platinum? A decent player, but still 2100 player cannot get a top 30-40 seeding.

He gets that rank 39 because he's entering tournaments and getting good results (semi final of an Arena tournament beating Slam and Jon Slow, top 32 of The Resurgence before losing to Yo).

It's impossible, it doesnt make any sense; the same as Kozmonot. I never saw Bloodless or Kozmonot in any major tournament, but their Ranking is insane

He's rank 62, which he earned through playing in tournaments.

Rubestock seeding like 5 spots above me

Rubenstock hasn't played many 1v1 tournament in the last 12 months.

doacid · Jun 22, 2022

Anything that is new is always trashed by some. That is specially so in old games such as this one, where people grow accustomed to their own narrow ways. If we had to follow or agree with the constant crying of some of you we'd still be playing Huns wars in aoc.

So I'll repeat this once again. There isn't a single way in the whole universe to measure player skill. It simply doesn't exist.

ATP DOESN'T MEASURE SKILL, IT MEASURES TOURNAMENT PERFORMANCE. Stop looking at a certain player that you think is very good and crying about their position in the ranking.
It doesn't matter how good you perceive X or Y player to be. They have to show that in tournaments.

And you can't play just 6 tournaments in one year. That's not a competitive/pro player, that's a part time player. So if you are only part time in the competitive scene you can't expect to be rated highly.

Battle for Scotland, a B tier $600 tournament finished yesterday. Not a single big or even medium size channel streamed the final.

Some of the players who participated:
F1re
Tatoh
Dragonstar
BacT
Capoch
ACCM
dogao
Margougou
FreakinAndy

If you think you (or others) are badly represented by the ATP ranking, you could have a look at your own results in these supposedly easy B tier tournaments and start winning them.
There's a big part of the community (Twitch channels, hosts, organizers, admins, etc) that are putting money and effort into creating a few tournaments every month. If you decide to ignore that part of the competitive scene and only follow/participate in the 3 or 4 big tournaments that happen each year... you're missing out big time.

Aten · Jun 22, 2022

doacid said:
Anything that is new is always trashed by some. That is specially so in old games such as this one, where people grow accustomed to their own narrow ways. If we had to follow or agree with the constant crying of some of you we'd still be playing Huns wars in aoc.

So I'll repeat this once again. There isn't a single way in the whole universe to measure player skill. It simply doesn't exist.

ATP DOESN'T MEASURE SKILL, IT MEASURES TOURNAMENT PERFORMANCE. Stop looking at a certain player that you think is very good and crying about their position in the ranking.
It doesn't matter how good you perceive X or Y player to be. They have to show that in tournaments.

And you can't play just 6 tournaments in one year. That's not a competitive/pro player, that's a part time player. So if you are only part time in the competitive scene you can't expect to be rated highly.

Battle for Scotland, a B tier $600 tournament finished yesterday. Not a single big or even medium size channel streamed the final.

Some of the players who participated:
F1re
Tatoh
Dragonstar
BacT
Capoch
ACCM
dogao
Margougou
FreakinAndy

If you think you (or others) are badly represented by the ATP ranking, you could have a look at your own results in these supposedly easy B tier tournaments and start winning them.
There's a big part of the community (Twitch channels, hosts, organizers, admins, etc) that are putting money and effort into creating a few tournaments every month. If you decide to ignore that part of the competitive scene and only follow/participate in the 3 or 4 big tournaments that happen each year... you're missing out big time.

You do know that a lot of those players, including Tatoh streamed their POV right?

Tatoh streaming the final got around 1k viewers - solidly putting it at the top end of aoe2 content.

doacid · Jun 22, 2022

Aten said:
You do know that a lot of those players, including Tatoh streamed their POV right?

Tatoh streaming the final got around 1k viewers - solidly putting it at the top end of aoe2 content.

Thank you. I actually watched the POV. I meant to say "cast" rather than "stream".

siestes · Jun 22, 2022

doacid said:
IT MEASURES TOURNAMENT PERFORMANCE.

Not really tho, it measures sort of a mix between tournament performance and regularity in tournament participation, with emphasis on the later rather than the former.

doacid · Jun 22, 2022

siestes said:
Not really tho, it measures sort of a mix between tournament performance and regularity in tournament participation, with emphasis on the later rather than the former.

As I already said, and very much like in tennis, It's designed to measure full time professionals, not part time players.

paradox303 · Jun 22, 2022

doacid said:
Battle for Scotland, a B tier $600 tournament finished yesterday. Not a single big or even medium size channel streamed the final.

Some of the players who participated:
F1re
Tatoh
Dragonstar
BacT
Capoch
ACCM
dogao
Margougou
FreakinAndy

If you think you (or others) are badly represented by the ATP ranking, you could have a look at your own results in these supposedly easy B tier tournaments and start winning them.
There's a big part of the community (Twitch channels, hosts, organizers, admins, etc) that are putting money and effort into creating a few tournaments every month. If you decide to ignore that part of the competitive scene and only follow/participate in the 3 or 4 big tournaments that happen each year... you're missing out big time.

Hey! We peaked at 50 viewers on my channel! COPIUM

Really though the support from the Spanish speaking community on the event was awesome and was a real eye opening experience of how large that community is and that breaches over onto YouTube too. As Aten said Tatoh had POV stream for nearly 1k and also some others on YT. JMB was on last night too which greatly reduced the chances of someone else taking it up on the open streaming on the English speaking side.

In all seriousness though, yes the level at these B tiers can be VERY good. You can even add Ubetnir, Boo, rmcoo and a few others that also played well (Mettiu was the true goat finishing second in his group despite being one of the lowest seeds).

I'd really love to see some more players 'farm' points in these smaller events.

doacid said:
As I already said, and very much like in tennis, It's designed to measure full time professionals, not part time players.

But we can also safely say that if you're active on AOE, competing in these A/B tier tourneys should not add too much of a workload as mainly one set a week, which is usually always 3 games. Very small time investment in general terms.

Degaussed · Jun 22, 2022

doacid said:
If you think you (or others) are badly represented by the ATP ranking, you could have a look at your own results in these supposedly easy B tier tournaments and start winning them.
There's a big part of the community (Twitch channels, hosts, organizers, admins, etc) that are putting money and effort into creating a few tournaments every month. If you decide to ignore that part of the competitive scene and only follow/participate in the 3 or 4 big tournaments that happen each year... you're missing out big time.

Long term, if ATP becomes standardised hopefully it would encourage more participation in A and B tiered events which could be a good thing for the competitive scene.

DracKeN · Jun 22, 2022

doacid said:
Battle for Scotland, a B tier $600 tournament finished yesterday. Not a single big or even medium size channel streamed the final.

Some of the players who participated:
F1re
Tatoh
Dragonstar
BacT
Capoch
ACCM
dogao
Margougou
FreakinAndy

There would be more high level players if they'd consider that the tournament isn't only for scottish players btw.

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