T90 league ❤️

[nimanoe]

Using ATP rankings would be fine if majority of tournaments were open qualifiers as opposed to in our scene where many past tournaments have been invitational. So the rankings become a self fulfilling prophecy.

What tournaments have been invitational lately? Almost every big tournament has a qualifier for at least 50% of the total available spots.
What you said would be true a couple years ago, but I don't think it's correct anymore.

Looking at the upcoming and latest 1v1 S-Tier tournaments:
RBW Legacy: 50% qualified, 50% invitations based on tournament performance
RMS Cup 2: 100% qualified
Resurgence: 100% qualified
WWC: 100% qualified
KotD4: 50% qualified, 50% invited
Holy Cup: 50% qualified, 50% invited
RBW V: 21% qualified, 79% invited based on tournament performance

Even the tournaments with invitees generally have them invited based on performances in a previous iteration or on general tournament performance.

 

[IYIyTh]

What tournaments have been invitational lately? Almost every big tournament has a qualifier for at least 50% of the total available spots.
What you said would be true a couple years ago, but I don't think it's correct anymore.

Looking at the upcoming and latest 1v1 S-Tier tournaments:
RBW Legacy: 50% qualified, 50% invitations based on tournament performance
RMS Cup 2: 100% qualified
Resurgence: 100% qualified
WWC: 100% qualified
KotD4: 50% qualified, 50% invited
Holy Cup: 50% qualified, 50% invited
RBW V: 21% qualified, 79% invited based on tournament performance

Even the tournaments with invitees generally have them invited based on performances in a previous iteration or on general tournament performance.

Most recent major tournaments have had some element of invitation.

I think the point being made -- if I understand it -- is that nearly all of the recent data is predicated on that the invites were earned/justified. Thus the data is thus inherently influenced by invite-only/invite-in-part events which invariably likely see a number of folks bounced before the main event during tough qualifiers/any given series factors or a number who probably shouldn't have been there to begin with perform poorly on an invite. Nonetheless even the "new" seeding method will have those individuals remaining seeded higher based on having made the main event (invited as opposed to having to qualify,), when last in/first out area could typically see 20-30 different players on a given day based on the relative parity in skill at that nearly in level. T90 highlights the tournaments that were invitation in full/part in the video as a basis in part for the league.

Not sure there's a perfect solution but it's at least an understandable problem.

 

[robo]

I think the point being made -- if I understand it -- is that nearly all of the recent data is predicated on that the invites were earned/justified. Thus the data is thus inherently influenced by invite-only/invite-in-part events which invariably likely see a number of folks bounced before the main event during tough qualifiers/any given series factors or a number who probably shouldn't have been there to begin with perform poorly on an invite. Nonetheless even the "new" seeding method will have those individuals remaining seeded higher based on having made the main event (invited as opposed to having to qualify,), when last in/first out area could typically see 20-30 different players on a given day based on the relative parity in skill at that nearly in level. T90 highlights the tournaments that were invitation in full/part in the video as a basis in part for the league.

Not sure there's a perfect solution but it's at least an understandable problem.

That is part of the idea behind ATP, it allows players to work their way up the rankings by participating and performing well in any tournament. Obviously, S-Tier events are worth the most points, but performing well in smaller events, where there is presumably less competition, allows players to still climb up, even more than losing in the ro32/64 of an S-Tier event.

Take classicpro as an example, he is 17th on current Player Rankings, but 'only' 29th on current S-Tier Rankings. Only 1/4 of his points come from S-Tier events, while MbL is 20th and 11th respectively, and 95% of his points are from S-Tier events. Dragonstar is another example, with 16th & 35th as his rankings and 10% of his points coming from S-Tier events.

 

[IYIyTh]

That is part of the idea behind ATP, it allows players to work their way up the rankings by participating and performing well in any tournament. Obviously, S-Tier events are worth the most points, but performing well in smaller events, where there is presumably less competition, allows players to still climb up, even more than losing in the ro32/64 of an S-Tier event.

Take classicpro as an example, he is 17th on current Player Rankings, but 'only' 29th on current S-Tier Rankings. Only 1/4 of his points come from S-Tier events, while MbL is 20th and 11th respectively, and 95% of his points are from S-Tier events. Dragonstar is another example, with 16th & 35th as his rankings and 10% of his points coming from S-Tier events.

Right, but I think the point being made was that the implicit bias (from invite tournaments, regardless of what %,) is still baked in at inception is the point being made (probably mostly by those right against the edge of that fine line of where the invites typically stop,) -- not that it's not a long term generally fair-shot for anyone to move up over time.

I don't think anyone has dissed your baby, robo.

 

[JoshuaR]

Looks like a ton of fun.

Got to start placements somehow, and ATP or tournament-elo are good places to start. Once the league matures and we see subsequent seasons, the placements will work themselves out as players will advance through the divisions based on results.

The only conundrum is the RBW placement spot that's only available to the top division winner in season one, though almost certainly that winner wouldn't come out of the second group anyway.

Probably the real headache will be accounting for dropouts and re-joins in subsequent seasons (dropouts are easy because you just move the next person up, but then when that first player wants to re-join, it's a bit dicey to decide if they go to a lower division and play weaker opponents, which is unfair to both parties, or if you have to kick someone down, which also seems unfair).

 

[robo]

Probably the real headache will be accounting for dropouts and re-joins in subsequent seasons (dropouts are easy because you just move the next person up, but then when that first player wants to re-join, it's a bit dicey to decide if they go to a lower division and play weaker opponents, which is unfair to both parties, or if you have to kick someone down, which also seems unfair).

They will have to join the qualifier for the next season, then play in Gold if they qualify.

 

[DracKeN]

They will have to join the qualifier for the next season, then play in Gold if they qualify.

I think this is not well thought through. So, say if Hera won't play this time, he'll play qualifier and then gold league (aka tons of matches with 0 competition level)? And that will happen whenever any top10 player will skip a league - he won't play one and then play very low quality (for him) B League, so only getting the real competition on 3rd edition?

In my case, I'd not be too hyped to play Gold Edition, but I can't play in it anyways due to the timing of this event. So I should play qualifier next season (assuming I'll have time for it), then hoping to qualify in Gold League, to potentially join the Platinum League - which might be again hosted during summer when I have little chances to play a 5 week tournament? The issue with League System is, that say in football the players know when the matches will happen 1 year ahead. And it's also their living, it's not the same in AoE.
If someone has the time to play every single Season and will be high in Gold League, it's deserved that he advances higher. But there also has to be qualifier for every season, it's just common sense.

 

[robo]

I think this is not well thought through. So, say if Hera won't play this time, he'll play qualifier and then gold league (aka tons of matches with 0 competition level)? And that will happen whenever any top10 player will skip a league - he won't play one and then play very low quality (for him) B League, so only getting the real competition on 3rd edition?

Season 1: Player X is in the top 16 (ie not relegated out of Platinum) - 8 players will drop down and be replaced next season.
Before Season 2: Player X decides not to participate. Now 9 players will need to be promoted to fill the empty spot based on Season 1's results.
Season 2: No one else decides to drop out - 8 players will drop down and be replaced next season.
Before Season 3: Player X wishes to return. If they were to be placed straight back into Platinum League there would now be 25 players. So, either someone in Platinum who performed well enough to not be relegated has to be relegated, or someone in Gold who performed well enough to be promoted will not be promoted. Either way, someone else is punished because of Player X.

I don't think that is fair at all. I would much rather reward players who can commit to playing AoE2 and participate as part of the scene.

What I would like to see happen is;
Season 1: Player X is in the top 16 (ie not relegated out of Platinum) - 8 players will drop down and be replaced next season.
Before Season 2: Player X decides not to participate. Now 9 players will need to be promoted to fill the empty spot based on Season 1's results.
Season 2: No one else decides to drop out - 8 players will drop down and be replaced next season.
Before Season 3: Player X wishes to return. They participate in the SIlver Qualifier and qualify for Gold
Season 3: Player X makes it to top8 in Gold and is promoted to Platinum for the next season.
Season 4: Player X is back in Platinum.

Now to me, that is the fairest solution, but if a lot of people disagree I'm happy to hear why and discuss solutions.

The issue with League System is, that say in football the players know when the matches will happen 1 year ahead. And it's also their living, it's not the same in AoE.

That is something that we are trying to change in small increments. The first 2 seasons (now and early next year) are already funded, and assuming they perform reasonably (ie players wish to play and viewers wish to watch) I don't see why they shouldn't be funded again for the next year (at similar dates). Maybe the prizes go up, or they become more regular as well.
A few $100 obviously isn't enough to make a living (for most players), but maybe it's enough to spend a few extra hours playing each fortnight, and improve a player's skill level, which would hopefully lead to larger payments in future events.

But there also has to be qualifier for every season, it's just common sense.

There will be a qualifier before every season (except this first one) to replace 8 players relegated out of Gold, or more than 8 if any players wish to not participate in the coming season.

 

[OnArtu]

I am really hyped for this, I think both viewers and expexially players needed some kind of long term perspective and stability that hopefully this league will deliever.

On the other hand, while overall I like the format, I'm not a fan of this relegation system. If I understand correctly, 8 players get automatically relegated from platinum to Gold without any kind of playoff system that matches them against gold league players that are candidate for promotion. 8 relegation out of 24 is a huge number and I fear that this might lead to a lower overall level in season 2 Platinum with potentially better players replaced by lower level ones, and at the same time having some big fish who gets relegated too easily, potentially even due to a harsh bracket, who stomps gold league in season 2. To prevent this, i would prefer to see a playout system where candidates to relegation gets matched with candidates to promotion to fight for a spot in next season Platinum, or maybe a mixed system with 4 automatic relegation and 4 playoff spots. That would be very nice to watch aswell

 

[Mollask]

The problem with a relegation system is, that it leads to additional matches that cannot be planned for - a player does not know beforehand if he has to play the relegation. Also, the switch-up is part of the system. Maybe the bottom 8 players of plat league are stronger than the top 8 players of gold league - but obviously they could not compete for the top spots, so why not give some more players the chance to shoot for this, train and improve?

@robo This is a question every organizers of league system faces, I know this myself. And taking another players spot away is certainly no solution. However, I would like to point out some reasons why it is really harsh that a players has to fight all the way back

1) If I understand correctly, you plan to do the games at fixed times. This is naturally good for viewership, but keep in mind that you do not have complete control over all dates in your life. There might be the wedding of your best friend. The birth of your child. Whatever. And then, for one time that you cannot compete in the league, you are completely out and have to wait for 1,5 years before being back in plat league. If you are unlucky, players might decide that is just not worth it.

2) While grinding back through competetively not really counting matches, this player de facto also takes spots from players who might have earned them otherwise

3) You cannot compare it to football or any other team sport. The reason being: In a team sport, you can be replaced if you cannot attend once. But if it is individual, this is not possible. Thats probably the reason why there are very few league systems for individuals - to be honest, I am not aware of a single one

So - is there a solution? First, it might be a good idea not playing on fixed dates for every group, but to decide it for every group in accordance with the players (naturally with a final ruling of the organizer). I know, this makes it probably a bit more problematic, but then at least you do not have to forfeit 3 seasons because you cannot play a single one. This might already lower the rate of drop outs.

To include a drop out in the league again, I would propose the following system:
He can re-enter directly one league below what his original league was. This would drastically reduce the number of non-competitive matches, but not take any spots from players fighting in the to league. Also, it allows an extension of the league system without rethinking everything - what happens if it is a great success and maybe you would like to extend it to 5 leagues instead of only 3?
So - don't we have an additional player then in the gold league? First, not necessarily. He might be allowed, for example, to take the spot of another drop out in this year. Or, if a plat player drops out, the gold league receives one additional spot to be taken. If absolutely no spot is available, one group is required to play with one more player and then 3 players will be relegated from this group except of 2. Also not completely fair, but at least everyone has a real chance to fight and not be the third. Also, if a spot opens above, the additional player being relegated from this group always should have priority for the spot.

 

[DracKeN]

The first 2 seasons (now and early next year) are already funded, and assuming they perform reasonably (ie players wish to play and viewers wish to watch) I don't see why they shouldn't be funded again for the next year (at similar dates). Maybe the prizes go up, or they become more regular as well.

Yeah, so if you are used to have like 2 weeks off during the summer, it doesn't make sense to play that league at all, as all you can achieve is to perform well in Gold League which is kind of A- tier tournament. Kinda sux to know you can't play in 2 S tier events each year, hope other players don't struggle with it. I've explained my thought process, I think the best solution is to make a qualifier for every season to fill few spots, otherwise you're arguably decreasing the level of the competition.

Either way, wish you a good luck with the event.

 

[Elvaenor]

Yeah, so if you are used to have like 2 weeks off during the summer, it doesn't make sense to play that league at all, as all you can achieve is to perform well in Gold League which is kind of A- tier tournament. Kinda sux to know you can't play in 2 S tier events each year, hope other players don't struggle with it. I've explained my thought process, I think the best solution is to make a qualifier for every season to fill few spots, otherwise you're arguably decreasing the level of the competition.

Either way, wish you a good luck with the event.

A solution could be to demote 6 players to gold league then, and have number 7 and 8 be able to fight it out in open qualifiers? However, the gold league does make much less sense then, since people would just want to fight in the qualifier anyway so their performance in the gold league is not as essential.

 

[DracKeN]

A solution could be to demote 6 players to gold league then, and have number 7 and 8 be able to fight it out in open qualifiers? However, the gold league does make much less sense then, since people would just want to fight in the qualifier anyway so their performance in the gold league is not as essential.

Well, unless you're able to play basically every season, this league doesn't make sense to participate in in case there isn't open qualifier. My changes for the format would be:
Season 1: Top12 stay in Platinum, bottom 12 going to Gold League. Top8 from Gold League goes to Platinum, bottom 12 from Gold League out.
Before season 2: 1 open qualifier for 4 spots (+x players from top12 of Platinum that won't play next season) for anyone who's not in Platinum League already. Platinum has 24 players for Season 2.
Gold League has seed 9th - 12th from previous season + 12 from Platinum, remaining top spots in qualifier join remaining Gold League spots (this number can slightly vary).

So overall there are 2 leagues + 1 qualifier before them, more changes in Platinum League each season, players have chance to join Platinum even if they didn't play previous season but have to go through difficult qualifier.. Removing prizes for 13-24th in each league would also make it possible to have funds for qualifier, increasing prize money per set won in both leagues, etc.

 

[robo]

1) If I understand correctly, you plan to do the games at fixed times. This is naturally good for viewership, but keep in mind that you do not have complete control over all dates in your life. There might be the wedding of your best friend. The birth of your child. Whatever. And then, for one time that you cannot compete in the league, you are completely out and have to wait for 1,5 years before being back in plat league. If you are unlucky, players might decide that is just not worth it.

Only the playoffs will have set times. All group stage games can be freely scheduled by players (only on weekdays for this season). But even the playoffs can be played earlier and cast as recs if necessary.

So if a player is unable to play for a week or 2 in the group stage, that isn't a huge issue, as long as they can be flexible to ensure the games are played in the other 3/4 weeks of the group stage.

To include a drop out in the league again, I would propose the following system:
He can re-enter directly one league below what his original league was. This would drastically reduce the number of non-competitive matches, but not take any spots from players fighting in the to league. Also, it allows an extension of the league system without rethinking everything - what happens if it is a great success and maybe you would like to extend it to 5 leagues instead of only 3?
So - don't we have an additional player then in the gold league? First, not necessarily. He might be allowed, for example, to take the spot of another drop out in this year. Or, if a plat player drops out, the gold league receives one additional spot to be taken. If absolutely no spot is available, one group is required to play with one more player and then 3 players will be relegated from this group except of 2. Also not completely fair, but at least everyone has a real chance to fight and not be the third. Also, if a spot opens above, the additional player being relegated from this group always should have priority for the spot.

That is essentially what happens at the moment. Assuming they are able to get through qualifiers (which they should be able to if they were Platinum level), then they will join back in Gold League. This isn't ideal for whoever they face in the qualifier, but that is something that will happen.

I'm not in favour of adding extra players per group as that adds a burden on the players to play more matches in the same amount of time, and also messes up the prize distribution.

Yeah, so if you are used to have like 2 weeks off during the summer, it doesn't make sense to play that league at all, as all you can achieve is to perform well in Gold League which is kind of A- tier tournament. Kinda sux to know you can't play in 2 S tier events each year, hope other players don't struggle with it.

See above about free scheduling if you're able to make up missing games.

 

[paradox303]

Well, unless you're able to play basically every season, this league doesn't make sense to participate in in case there isn't open qualifier. My changes for the format would be:
Season 1: Top12 stay in Platinum, bottom 12 going to Gold League. Top8 from Gold League goes to Platinum, bottom 12 from Gold League out.
Before season 2: 1 open qualifier for 4 spots (+x players from top12 of Platinum that won't play next season) for anyone who's not in Platinum League already. Platinum has 24 players for Season 2.
Gold League has seed 9th - 12th from previous season + 12 from Platinum, remaining top spots in qualifier join remaining Gold League spots (this number can slightly vary).

So overall there are 2 leagues + 1 qualifier before them, more changes in Platinum League each season, players have chance to join Platinum even if they didn't play previous season but have to go through difficult qualifier.. Removing prizes for 13-24th in each league would also make it possible to have funds for qualifier, increasing prize money per set won in both leagues, etc.

I think you've really missed the point of the league. What you're suggesting is a completely different format.

 

[LowEloNobody]

LEAGUES WITHIN LEAGUES WITHIN LEAGUES

 

[IYIyTh]

LEAGUES WITHIN LEAGUES WITHIN LEAGUES

Inception Horn Sound Effect HD (Angry Boat)

Cinematic Inception Horn

www.youtube.com

You forgot the above.

 

[DracKeN]

See above about free scheduling if you're able to make up missing games.

Ok, that's making it significantly more possible to play for range of players. I'd change some things, I'm curious if the system can work on the level you're expecting, but it's going to be interesting to find out, gl.

 

[Mollask]

@robo I think there was some confusion about the open qualifier. Because you called it "Silver League", it was (at least by me) automatically assumed to take place at the same time as the Plat/Gold League. But if it takes prior to them and you can qualify for the same seasons gold league, this removes a lot of the concerns. Maybe just don't call it Silver League then?

Together with the more flexible scheduling of the group stage I think everything is good and I can give my approval (which, I am sure, was terribly important for you )

Ok, seriously: Looks very good and I am really excited for it.

 

[Loris]

As i said in the other post.
So actually the Silver League is just a qualifier and furthermore it wont take place in season 1 so many good players who can fight their spot for the Gold League cant even try it.

Still a great event and thank you for that but this is quite disappointing

 

[nimanoe]

I think the point being made -- if I understand it -- is that nearly all of the recent data is predicated on that the invites were earned/justified. Thus the data is thus inherently influenced by invite-only/invite-in-part events which invariably likely see a number of folks bounced before the main event during tough qualifiers/any given series factors or a number who probably shouldn't have been there to begin with perform poorly on an invite. Nonetheless even the "new" seeding method will have those individuals remaining seeded higher based on having made the main event (invited as opposed to having to qualify,), when last in/first out area could typically see 20-30 different players on a given day based on the relative parity in skill at that nearly in level. T90 highlights the tournaments that were invitation in full/part in the video as a basis in part for the league.

I get the point being made, but the post I replied to said most tournaments didn't have open qualifiers, which simply isn't true

Besides that, I think the ATP rankings are very forgiving to lower level players, so while getting an invite certainly helps a player get some ATP points, if they don't act on it, they won't get that many points from it.

The ATP rankings are imo also very generous to A and B-Tier events, thus making activity in those events more important than over just performing well in S-Tier events. The amount of points gained from S-Tier events is 57165, while the total points is 119450, so not even half the points are given out based on the performance in S-Tier events and that includes the qualifiers for those events.

As a conclusion: Yes, you are correct in saying that invites influence the data, however with all 1v1 S-Tier tournaments having qualifiers, the people who are invited generally being based on previous performance, not just because of their reach, viewer numbers or sponsor's preference (except HOLY Cup) and the amount of points given to A and B Tier events, I don't think it's a huge influence.

 

[JoshuaR]

Now to me, that is the fairest solution, but if a lot of people disagree I'm happy to hear why and discuss solutions.

It's certainly the fairest solution for the individual player and in the spirit of the competition/league. The only thing that becomes unfair is a situation like Hera moving to LoL for a while, or Viper resting his wrist for a while, and then coming back in Gold instead of Platinum. This isn't unfair to Hera or Viper, it's unfair to the other gold competitors/viewers.

There isn't a great solution, though. You could consider the inevitable Platinum Sit Outs (for life reasons) as Open spots for prior Sit Outs. E.G. Two people sit out. Rather than raising 10 Gold to Platinum, you raise the original 8 and replace the two sit outs with prior sit outs. I'm not sure one method is better or worse, just raising the potential problem ahead of time.

 

[Festivus]

What I would like to see happen is;
Season 1: Player X is in the top 16 (ie not relegated out of Platinum) - 8 players will drop down and be replaced next season.
Before Season 2: Player X decides not to participate. Now 9 players will need to be promoted to fill the empty spot based on Season 1's results.
Season 2: No one else decides to drop out - 8 players will drop down and be replaced next season.
Before Season 3: Player X wishes to return. They participate in the SIlver Qualifier and qualify for Gold
Season 3: Player X makes it to top8 in Gold and is promoted to Platinum for the next season.
Season 4: Player X is back in Platinum.

Now to me, that is the fairest solution, but if a lot of people disagree I'm happy to hear why and discuss solutions.

I think there is a lot to like about this approach, I also think JMB does some things well that could be blended with this approach to make it better. JMB is designed to increase activity in the 1v1 ladder, and the top 8 on the ladder who register get to play. Since this tournament is already using the ATP you could use that in a similar way, and I think that would make since in terms of making sure the best competition in this league. Say for Platinum league the top 8 players in ATP rankings could be given direct invites. So for season 2 onward, platinum league is made up from:

1. Top 8 registered players ranked by ATP
2. Top 8 players from previous season platinum league not already qualified under #1
3. Top 8 players from previous season gold league..

Now there is likely to be some serious overlap between #1 and #2 so it doesn't really change things too much, but it does make sure that top competition doesn't have to waste a season if life gets in the way for someone.

Personally, the biggest issue that I see with the system is that 8 players get promoted to platinum league in season 2 without having to prove themselves against any competition from the platinum league. If you would entertain suggestions that are perhaps a bit further away from the current plan, I would suggest that there be some form of between season last chance qualifier where the top players from gold league and the bottom players from platinum league face off in a mini tournament for those last platinum league spots. That way those spots are earned. The league shouldn't just be a revolving door for players #17-24 with #25-32. In my eyes if player #25 beats player #30 he hasn't proven worthy of a spot in the top 24. If he can do well in gold league, and then do well in some sort of group round with players #17-24 he has proven worthy of that top 24 spot. Similarly, if player #17 struggles against the top, but still wipes the floor with players #25-32 he should stay in platinum league. Hopefully I am not understanding the settings incorrectly, but I really strongly suggest that the promotions/relegations between gold/platinum go through some form of a last chance qualifier system, pretty much every system format I know of has something similar. Here are 2 potential options.

1. The bottom 4 players from platinum are relegated to gold. The top 4 players from gold are promoted to platinum. The next 4 lowest from platinum and the next 4 highest from gold face off in an 8 person mini tournament / last chance qualifier for the last 4 platinum league spots.
2. The bottom 8 players from platinum and the top 8 players from gold face off in a 16 person last chance qualifier for 8 spots.

I really really love any sort of league idea such as JMB and this and I can't wait for this, thanks to t90 all involved its going to be a blast.

 

[willdbeast]

That way those spots are earned. The league shouldn't just be a revolving door for players #17-24 with #25-32. In my eyes if player #25 beats player #30 he hasn't proven worthy of a spot in the top 24. If he can do well in gold league, and then do well in some sort of group round with players #17-24 he has proven worthy of that top 24 spot. Similarly, if player #17 struggles against the top, but still wipes the floor with players #25-32 he should stay in platinum league

I agree that what you've identified is an issue on paper, but I think with how the skill distribution is in aoe2 it's not as big a problem as it might be, since imo the #16-32 players are somewhat close in skill (which is why making ranking lists is so hard 11) and most or all of them have fairly decent swings in their level between events so I don't think it will lead to big seesaws in how competitive it is or anything.

 

[TheCapybara]

Having promotion based on qualifiers against those potentially getting relegated seems unnecessary. I like seeing players get relegated/promoted outright, means there's something meaningful to play to achieve/avoid each season and makes it a little more cut-throat. Whether the number being promoted and relegated is right might be up for debate, but the principle is solid.