T90 Docks needs changing video

[DanMT]

Firstly to say that I 100% agree that the dock with 2 pages and the (fire galley) upgrade are amongst the hardest things to even notice when you are a new player. I have some suggestions:

A separate dock for civilian and warship units, maybe called a dock and wardock, or port and dock I don't know about the names, but the idea is that it allows all warships to be on one page and all non aggression ships to be one page (which you will need as I also think we need more variety of ships). Also on a boomy map like black forest you would only make the civilian dock in your pond which maybe could be a cheaper building than the wardock? This would likely also increase strategic diversity on what type of dock to go for and where. Obviously they would need some kind of different building visual.

Another idea that I have heard is having a docksmith/shipwright building for techs like careening which would work similar to a blacksmith, I like this as when I started playing it took me a long while to realise fletching affected galleys for example, this building would streamline where to go for ship upgrades and maybe enable some more upgrades to be put into the game, Faster firing, movement speed, area of effect etc other people will probably have different and better ideas about what techs would be useful/fun.

On to making the water maps more diverse and fun, I think we need some more types of ships and options on the water, I would introduce a builder boat in the civilian dock to let you build some form of water tower which could either be just for vision similar to an outpost or have an attack like a watch tower etc ( the strength and cost of which would need to be determined over time) plus you might actually see heated shot researched in a game! I like this idea as it gives you a way to maintain vision over a section of water much like on land , and to potentially help in defence. Some form of pontoon wall could be interesting as well and would help lower elo players defend their fish, although I think this would need a relatively high cost to stop it becoming OP. With regards to warships some form of mangonel ship would be a great addition to let you have a comeback mechanic against large balls of galleys or longboats much like on land when you try to comeback against a ball of archers, also I would like to see a ramming ship which has a charge attack on it's first attack and then significantly reduced damage after that it would also be a great ship for taking down enemy docks as after your opponent has researched masonry this can be quite difficult to do with the current ships.

I know that you might think having more types of ship would make it more difficult to learn, but I think having them in two different clearly labelled buildings (3 with the docksmith) and enabling some form of defensive walling and watchtowers, would make water maps more low elo friendly whilst enabling some varied and interesting strategies and gameplay at a higher level on what currently is most players least favourite types of maps. Also it gives the devs options for more civ unique techs and options with regards to water, which in my opinion can only be a good thing as currently we have a very small pool of civs to pick from on the various water maps.

 

[Lokalo]

Well renaming that war galley tech is kind of must. However all rest maybe could be just solved if devs could make bigger "UI" if that name makes sense so there are 24 instead 18 squares. What bothers me most that when I want to do fast fires I need to press on dock, then press V and only then can order units and in the end often missclick stuff. Maybe is possible to queue them while being in first dock page and I just don't know? But that thing that you need to scroll through dock to queue very common units is very annoying.

Having 2 separate docks would mess up all build orders and also would make it super predictable from scouting what exactly you are doing, so not too fan about it. It also seems quite complicated especially for hybrid maps if you need multiple buildings for water and land

 

[Potkeny]

Maybe is possible to queue them while being in first dock page and I just don't know?

Can't you make them with hotkey if its a different hotkey from the first-page ones?

Disclaimer: not a water player

 

[DanMT]

Well renaming that war galley tech is kind of must. However all rest maybe could be just solved if devs could make bigger "UI" if that name makes sense so there are 24 instead 18 squares. What bothers me most that when I want to do fast fires I need to press on dock, then press V and only then can order units and in the end often missclick stuff. Maybe is possible to queue them while being in first dock page and I just don't know? But that thing that you need to scroll through dock to queue very common units is very annoying.

Having 2 separate docks would mess up all build orders and also would make it super predictable from scouting what exactly you are doing, so not too fan about it. It also seems quite complicated especially for hybrid maps if you need multiple buildings for water and land

It would change build orders although I don't see that as a bad thing. The complicated for hybrid maps is a fair point though. With regards to scouting rewarding scouting is surely a good thing?

 

[dodageka]

Can't you make them with hotkey if its a different hotkey from the first-page ones?

Disclaimer: not a water player

AFAIK that works - doesn’t help of course when using grid hotkeys

 

[T-West]

If only the William Wallace narrator had an iconic line about building stuff on the second page of the Dock. "The English are crossing the shallows again! Teach them a lesson with your new Heavy Demolition Ships!"

 

[LockeAoC]

If only the William Wallace narrator had an iconic line about building stuff on the second page of the Dock. "The English are crossing the shallows again! Teach them a lesson with your new Heavy Demolition Ships!"

Reminds me of this set (G5):

Hidden Cup 4 | Le Loi vs John the Fearless (Best of 5)

One of the best Hidden Cup matches to have ever happened. Who will win this explosive battle?Twitch ➤ https://twitch.tv/t90officialMerch ➤ https://teespring....

youtu.be

 

[Lightysword]

Can't you make them with hotkey if its a different hotkey from the first-page ones?

Disclaimer: not a water player

You can. And once you know this, this is less of a pain.

 

[-R-]

AFAIK that works - doesn’t help of course when using grid hotkeys

I use, in general, grid hotkeys, just changed the hotkey for transports in order to make fires with it. After all, transports and CG are ultra situational and I really do not resent having to click them manually.

Not to sound overly categorical, but I think this is a huge non-issue.

 

[-R-]

As regards to the OP, I don't think the best way to go about this is pulling random types of ship out of our arses in order to make water play more similar to Arabia play (water walls, water towers, water mangonels? might as well have water men-at-arms). And *three* different types of docks strikes me as completely bizarre, not to mention counter-productive. I can only see any of this being even remotely viable in a "40 minute treaty team islands deathmatch NO NOOBS" lobby.

 

[Huehuecoyotl22]

While I would be interested in more ship types and water civ bonuses, changing the war galley upgrade button (name) and a bigger interface for buildings would be really good anyway.
For me the “war galley upgrades fire galleys" was never a problem, because I read about it when it was changed and never read the button descriptions in-game, because I just know what it does, and it was not important for me what exactly it was called (I started playing the game in German and switched to English with FE, because the German translation was quite bad, and I never really bothered remembering the unique tech names which were added after FE) . But for new players it indeed is a problem.

Not a fan of water walls and towers though. Weak barricades or some swimming production/repair building would be the furthest. But nothing that can easily block a whole passage or even attack far like a tower.

 

[otw_Da]

Why do scorpions not counter ships? Scorpion shot and design looks like a natural ship counter to me. But is useless against ships.
Your ideas seems way to trollish - people cry alot about water. I like it and after 20 years I still enjoy it.
Maybe one other ship options would be nice something that makes you board other ships? Or hold them with ropes?

When you are a new player and not able to discover second page because you lack sense of discovery then maybe older games are nothing for you.

 

[T90Official]

Why do scorpions not counter ships? Scorpion shot and design looks like a natural ship counter to me. But is useless against ships.
Your ideas seems way to trollish - people cry alot about water. I like it and after 20 years I still enjoy it.
Maybe one other ship options would be nice something that makes you board other ships? Or hold them with ropes?

When you are a new player and not able to discover second page because you lack sense of discovery then maybe older games are nothing for you.

While I agree we can’t overhaul the game to the wishes of newcomers, I still believe the dock is overly confusing & can be reworked to make everyone happy. As I stated in the video a lot of the things we are used to is very unintuitive. I don’t believe in keeping it just because we had to get used to it ourselves or because our game is old.

There’s no reason it can’t be easier to understand for beginners while also maintaining what we’ve grown used to. Reworking the pages & renaming “war galley” is a must & would have next to no affect for those of us who know our stuff.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

How would you guys rename war galley upgrade? I was thinking about something something navy but it sounds a bit lame xd

 

[-R-]

"Improved warships" or something silly and generic like that.

 

[DanMT]

Could we not have individual upgrades in castle age for fires demos and galleys?

 

[Min]

How would you guys rename war galley upgrade? I was thinking about something something navy but it sounds a bit lame xd

"(Advanced) Naval warfare" is the first thing that comes to mind that doesn't sound completely horrible.

 

[The Bloodless]

Please not these aoe4 names that sound so generic and unsatisfying. (E.g., advanced naval warfare). It doesn't have to be particularly accurate. Just add a line to the description if it's an incorrect description. I don't even hardly remember the name "War Galley" but it sounds better than these suggestions, so let's just keep it as is. After all, Galley is upgraded into War Galley (or whatever it's called) and Fire Galley is upgraded into Fire Ship, which does mean that all "Galleys" are upgraded. So even if it's unintuitive, it does make some sense as is. Now the fact that Demolition Rafts are upgraded into Demolition Ships remains unintuitive for sure but a new player can easily enough look in the two pages of the dock and find that there's no other applicable upgrade, so that one upgrade must be the one that makes all attacking ships better.

It's a nice UI improvement that the devs could easily do and shouldn't be hard... Just add a line clarifying what the upgrade actually does.

I don't think there's an easy way to fit all techs on one page so we can just leave that be. As for the new ship ideas etc, a boarding ship could be kind of cool and more historically accurate. Other than that, no need to change much. We're not talking about making a new game, there should only be minor tweaks at this point or just go ahead and make aoe5.

 

[Potkeny]

I don't even hardly remember the name "War Galley" but it sounds better than these suggestions, so let's just keep it as is.

I think I saw it under the YT video, but "War Ships" for making galleys into War galley, fire galleys into fire ships, demo raft into demo ships includes all 3, just even more generic 11

 

[kalpit00]

OP I actually am in favor of most of your ideas but if there's one thing to know about the AoeII community, is that we don't perceive such major gaming changing features very well. Most of the playerbase is so used to the "classical settings" that bringing new gimmicks and features which may drastically impact the meta will always be treated with a fair bit of criticism at first. And not to mention the inevitable infinite number of bugs that will come alongside such a massive water balance update.

I think if there was a mod of this first, then people can choose to download it and see how it plays out, then this will be received with a lot more positivity.
I have always wanted to diversify water meta, by including gimmicks like "ships move slower in shallows/normal but faster in deep water, take a bit more damage on shallows than in deep water (This is to "nerf" ships vs land units too and give more comeback potential to defender if water is already "lost", like a demo hit/fire galley release would be more devastating on shallows near enemy docks than in middle of the sea)

water hills (not really this sucks as it makes it a campfest but still is cool :P)

New ships and dock buildings sound good on paper, but again it will depend how much people will actually like the units.
A docksmith sounds reasonable to me, especially for ship armor and cost upgrades
A building boat is a really interesting concept, but its success will greatly depend if water walls or water towers actually work or not. I dont mind water walls, just make them expensive on wood, and give fire galley bonus vs them, so they can punch through them in reasonable time. Water towers however, can be really meta changing. You would need a separate ship in castle age to siege it as well, like maybe a shorter range version of cannon galleons which shoots somewhat fast can work. Like Water Mangonel :D. And also Water Ram if you want a siege warship to take down docks and water towers faster - altho they would melt vs fires and demos, whereas the water mangonel would struggle vs war galleys/projectiles

Thats about it my man, I am still not sold on all these new ships, need a lot of testing and positive feedback.

 

[OnArtu]

I don't understand how can this be confusing, there's written anything you need to know

 

[Potkeny]

there's written anything you need to know

People don't read, that's the problem.

 

[robo]

People don't read, that's the problem.

I wish it wasn't a problem that affected so many areas of our community

 

[RobChang]

While I agree we can’t overhaul the game to the wishes of newcomers, I still believe the dock is overly confusing & can be reworked to make everyone happy. As I stated in the video a lot of the things we are used to is very unintuitive. I don’t believe in keeping it just because we had to get used to it ourselves or because our game is old.

There’s no reason it can’t be easier to understand for beginners while also maintaining what we’ve grown used to. Reworking the pages & renaming “war galley” is a must & would have next to no affect for those of us who know our stuff.

I dont like the split into a civilian and a war building. It barely solves more on water than having too pages in one building. Because you would just mostly make the second building from feudal on. The snowbally nature of water would not be changed.

I would rather split it into a feudal age dock with civilian ships and light war ships and a castle age port with middle and heavy war ships. Then you also get rid of the second page in the dock, but you use the feudal dock more than just for refishing. Also with requiring a new building and splitting the galley line you make the transitions less snowbally and not the one who spams most docks and gets age up earliest wins. Because you cant just upgrade your navy lead from feudal to a even bigger lead in castle age. It could be a strat to go more navy in feudal age, or skip to castle age to get access to knight like heavier warships who can deal well with a good mass of underaged ships but it depends on the exact execution and numbers. Generally, interrupting the snowball allows for some interactive play and comeback potential, which is severely needed for water.


Splitting ships into light and heavy als deals with the war galley upgrade. Also can the entanglement of navy viability and access to bracer be removed in a sense that only light war ships benefit from bracer but others have their own techs in the port for instance. In that way the tech tree requirements for water get less uniform, which also introduces diversity in water.

 

[Zbyszek]

interesting idea. it would make water trade more of a thing even if they changed trade unit behaviour back to normal but it would make water play completely deifferent from aoe 2. so maybe something for DE but not a good thing for the standard game.