Suggestions for balance changes

[Tommutjah]

Sicilians
- Bonus damage reduction: 50% --> 33%
- Buildings castles and TC's faster: 50% 100%--> 33% 66%

Bohemians
- Feudal and castle mining upgrades free --> only feudal mining upgrades free

 

[HelloWorld]

Looks good! Except that give Sicilians some weak eco bonus in dark/feudal age. Like vills carry +3 food from deer/sheep. That way they have something going on in their dark to feudal age.

Bonus damage reduction could just be 25% in my opinion, but 33% is a good start.

 

[Tommutjah]

Looks good! Except that give Sicilians some weak eco bonus in dark/feudal age. Like vills carry +3 food from deer/sheep. That way they have something going on in their dark to feudal age.

Bonus damage reduction could just be 25% in my opinion, but 33% is a good start.

I think because of their strong scout opening with the bonus damage reduction they compensate the lack of an early eco bonus. Maybe give them extra LOS on their lumbercamps/mills/mining camps(/houses?) as a team bonus instead of the one they have right now?

Most important thing is that they don't have the Hauberk cavalier they have now, a unit that some civs just not seem to have a counter for. Arbalesters do almost nothing and mass halberdier doesn't work as well as it should, while mass halberdiers can be easily countered by the Sicilian player. For me, that works against the principle that every unit should have a clear weakness that can be exploited by the right counter unit.

 

[LowEloNobody]

I'm not sure why anyone would want to nerf Sicilians when they have the 7th lowest win-rate of 39 civs

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

Remove magic sergeant spam from Sicilians and give them the Chinese team bonus; that would further cement their long lasting farms and be a little early eco bonus.

Bohemians should lose free stone mining upgrades, otherwise they're totally fine. Give that to another civ with a bad win rate

 

[LowEloNobody]

Remove magic sergeant spam from Sicilians and give them the Chinese team bonus; that would further cement their long lasting farms and be a little early eco bonus.

Bohemians should lose free stone mining upgrades, otherwise they're totally fine. Give that to another civ with a bad win rate

Why give them another farm bonus that doesn't pay off until early castle age? That's not where they are weak.

Interesting how Malians had the castle age gold mining upgrade taken away because it was too strong, but it's totally fine for Bohemians to have it

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

Why give them another farm bonus that doesn't pay off until early castle age? That's not where they are weak.

Interesting how Malians had the castle age gold mining upgrade taken away because it was too strong, but it's totally fine for Bohemians to have it

I generally think civs that are good late game need to have a slower start. It's a bit simplistic, but Sicilians' reduction of bonus damage makes them tricky to deal with late game, so people should be able / allowed to get on top of them early with good play.

Only reason I can think that bohemians should get both and not Malians is because Malians also have the building discount. Or maybe the devs just wanted things to be neater and to give all of any upgrade line to a civ rather than just the first.

 

[Leonidas91]

Pls Nerf War Wagons

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Pls Nerf War Wagons

What's that?

 

[LowEloNobody]

I generally think civs that are good late game need to have a slower start. It's a bit simplistic, but Sicilians' reduction of bonus damage makes them tricky to deal with late game, so people should be able / allowed to get on top of them early with good play.

Only reason I can think that bohemians should get both and not Malians is because Malians also have the building discount. Or maybe the devs just wanted things to be neater and to give all of any upgrade line to a civ rather than just the first.

But people already ARE getting on top of them early with good play. That's why they have a 46% win rate. Poles/Goths/Sicilians are all crap civs until they have a full boom and good farming eco. That's when you punish them. Now you want to nerf their late game as well so that they are crap early game and crap late game. That makes no sense.

Malians get a building discount, but so do bohemians. Bohemians are saving 100 wood on their blacksmith, and another 200 wood in castle age.
Malians save 100-125 wood in dark age and another 100-125 wood in feudal, so the bonuses aren't that far off.

 

[TheCapybara]

I'm not sure why anyone would want to nerf Sicilians when they have the 7th lowest win-rate of 39 civs

They have too many bonuses which are just downright unfun and obnoxious and also mean certain civs have incredibly limited options. Hauberk cavalier with reduced bonus damage means too many compositions fail against it. 100% faster building TCs/castles is completely broken in a lot of defensive and offensive situations (see TheMax-Vinchester from KotD4 qualifiers for a great example). First Crusade is so out of character with the rest of the game, it fundamentally doesn't feel like AoE2.

Civ statistics don't tell the full story. A civ could be the worst in the game statistically, but still have certain mechanics which merit nerfing (see for example how arambai were nerfed for Burmese). Sicilians are partly a victim of the overwhelming number of civs in the game and the difficulty of making a unique and balanced civ to fit with the other 38, but they probably need some adjustments to fit in better.

 

[LowEloNobody]

They have too many bonuses which are just downright unfun and obnoxious and also mean certain civs have incredibly limited options. Hauberk cavalier with reduced bonus damage means too many compositions fail against it. 100% faster building TCs/castles is completely broken in a lot of defensive and offensive situations (see TheMax-Vinchester from KotD4 qualifiers for a great example). First Crusade is so out of character with the rest of the game, it fundamentally doesn't feel like AoE2.

Civ statistics don't tell the full story. A civ could be the worst in the game statistically, but still have certain mechanics which merit nerfing (see for example how arambai were nerfed for Burmese). Sicilians are partly a victim of the overwhelming number of civs in the game and the difficulty of making a unique and balanced civ to fit with the other 38, but they probably need some adjustments to fit in better.

I think nerfing the faster building castles is totally fine, nerfing faster building TC's is just a hit to their eco more than anything else (since they already lost the bonus for nomad starts).
The anguish over hauberk cavalier is misplaced IMO. They still die to halb, and aren't even close to cav-aphracts like people claim. No one is running around crying about burgundian early/fast/cheap paladin which is an objectively better unit, with a good eco to back it up.

I also think first crusade is a dumb ass gimmick and shouldn't exist.

 

[Oli King]

War Wagons: remove +4 bonus damage against buildings.

With 6 pierce armor and 150 hp it can already 1v1 a fully garrisoned TC. No need to give saracen bonus on steroids to them

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

Now you want to nerf their late game as well so that they are crap early game and crap late game. That makes no sense.

I don't want to nerf their late game. I think they're fine. I'm saying maybe they should be buffed a little early game to balance them a bit.

I just hate the instant unit mechanic, including the revolution

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I'm not sure why anyone would want to nerf Sicilians when they have the 7th lowest win-rate of 39 civs

Because if you don't ever see them then you can pretend they're not in the game.

 

[ffviplayer]

Stop nerfing Sicilians, I just bought the DLC few weeks ago. PunOko

 

[hellhammer]

Oh man I saw this post and nobody even talks about Poles??
Insane folwark farm eco, probably the best farm economy for arena in 1v1, plus the 30G Cavalier spam (See Shades game casted by T90: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOc8er9avM8) and the Obuch makes Poles quite OP on several cases.

Obuch in particular needs to be a bit more expensive, like +5 gold cost, and remove 1 Pierce Armor from them (like the Leitis nerf) so they still are great in melee fights, but they die harder to arbalests and other ranged units.

And where is the Houfnice nerf, a better bombard cannon with extra speed and siege engineers, plus greater blast radius is just too much, and in conjunction with the other bohemian units (especially with their nasty halbs), is quite overpowered for late games in bf/arena and similar, the AoE should be reduced, and remove Siege Engineers.

To put in comparison, Burgundians, Spanish, and Turks have strong Bombard Cannons but they all lack Siege Engineers to offset the advantages, while Bohemians don't.

 

[SouFire]

Oh man I saw this post and nobody even talks about Poles??
Insane folwark farm eco, probably the best farm economy for arena in 1v1, plus the 30G Cavalier spam (See Shades game casted by T90: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOc8er9avM8) and the Obuch makes Poles quite OP on several cases.

Obuch in particular needs to be a bit more expensive, like +5 gold cost, and remove 1 Pierce Armor from them (like the Leitis nerf) so they still are great in melee fights, but they die harder to arbalests and other ranged units.

And where is the Houfnice nerf, a better bombard cannon with extra speed and siege engineers, plus greater blast radius is just too much, and in conjunction with the other bohemian units (especially with their nasty halbs), is quite overpowered for late games in bf/arena and similar, the AoE should be reduced, and remove Siege Engineers.

To put in comparison, Burgundians, Spanish, and Turks have strong Bombard Cannons but they all lack Siege Engineers to offset the advantages, while Bohemians don't.

Sadly balancing is just not going anywhere, they are about to release stronger units and more OP bonuses that would make irrelevant poles eco and army composition and the same for bohemians, the devs already know about the disgusting meta for WW, organ gun, housite wagon, etc but they aren't fixing it, ont he contrary they are going to release new counters for those units, forcing you to buy the upcoming DLC's.

All the attention and reflectors are still on aoe4, it has been 4 patches without a single balance change.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Oh man I saw this post and nobody even talks about Poles??
Insane folwark farm eco, probably the best farm economy for arena in 1v1, plus the 30G Cavalier spam (See Shades game casted by T90: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOc8er9avM8) and the Obuch makes Poles quite OP on several cases.

Obuch in particular needs to be a bit more expensive, like +5 gold cost, and remove 1 Pierce Armor from them (like the Leitis nerf) so they still are great in melee fights, but they die harder to arbalests and other ranged units.

And where is the Houfnice nerf, a better bombard cannon with extra speed and siege engineers, plus greater blast radius is just too much, and in conjunction with the other bohemian units (especially with their nasty halbs), is quite overpowered for late games in bf/arena and similar, the AoE should be reduced, and remove Siege Engineers.

To put in comparison, Burgundians, Spanish, and Turks have strong Bombard Cannons but they all lack Siege Engineers to offset the advantages, while Bohemians don't.

You want to nerf a civ because they farm well on 1 certain map?

 

[Tommutjah]

Bohemians:
- Remove Siege Engineers

Burgundians:
- Stable technologies cost reduction: 50% --> 33%

 

[dodageka]

To put in comparison, Burgundians, Spanish, and Turks have strong Bombard Cannons but they all lack Siege Engineers to offset the advantages, while Bohemians don't.

And Italians, Portuguese, and Ethiopians all have strong bombard cannons with siege engineers, so that isn’t an argument either way

 

[YoungPanda95]

And Italians, Portuguese, and Ethiopians all have strong bombard cannons with siege engineers, so that isn’t an argument either way

Sadly Italians don't have siege engineers

 

[dodageka]

Sadly Italians don't have siege engineers

True, mixed that up. My point still stands though with the other two. Also, I am not disagreeing with the idea that houfnice is too strong, just didn’t like the comparison

 

[Lokalo]

Yup, I kept saying they either gotta nerf Hauberk, either make 25% anti counter dmg, early imp those cavs are just insane, also hauberk probably should be more expensive too.

As for win rate, well most people do not know how to play with them and do not even get heavy plow early, although if they get to imp I'm usually fooked without much of chance. Remember losing even with italian genoise, they did not cut that well, which they supposed to kill. Also tried to win early, but castle dropping Sicilians didnt go too well xD I'm not sure what you supposed to do with civs like vikings there, zerks might be decent, but good luck getting to them. pikemen wont do anything even with cheeftains, and sicilian can get some arbalest himself and arbalests to hauberk do same as skirms.

Also most people play random civ, also if stats are taken from aoe.net (aoenexus takes stats from there) there is a bug where many civs are taken as aztecs for some reason.

 

[Pinch3Terneira]

Nerf mayans to burmese level.