AOE-II DE Spanish Buff - free inquisition as civ bonus, imp U tech gives vils military stances/patrol

[lecracheursagacite]

Bruh, this is a medieval game, stop making Spanish even more out of time as they already are.

While tercio are clearly early modern rather medieval he has to be forgiven a bit for thinking this way considering the entire Spanish civ is designed thematically around their early modern identity.

 

[Bourne2Die]

You are supposed to go full mbl walls, fast castle, 1tc conqs+sw into castle drop his main tc cancer and suddenly half the civs feel like civ loss against spanish.

since when is playing a civ to its strength cancer? should franks always go archers, britons cav and magyars for siege?

 

[crashDismounted]

since when is playing a civ to its strength cancer? should franks always go archers, britons cav and magyars for siege?

It should be obvious that it is specifically Castle dropping the main TC and other forward building strategies that are considered "cancer" (and he's probably joking, too).

 

[Bourne2Die]

It should be obvious that it is specifically Castle dropping the main TC and other forward building strategies that are considered "cancer" (and he's probably joking, too).

so dropping castles is only allowed defensively? No matter how it is ment, the word „cancer“ is used wrongly.

 

[Pinch3Terneira]

Make conquis great again, they just need more accuracy.

 

[Faultier321]

You could make Horse Collar and Heavy Plow give Food to already existing Farms, so you can delay those upgrades up to a point shortly before the Farms run out

 

[Memeluke]

Ok, understood, I'll call it tumor playstyle instead.

 

[An Fitheach]

Oh, boy, as a Spaniard frustrated with how much his own civ sucks this topic touches me. First of all, a couple of disclaimers:

• I appreciate how many TG players would be frightened of buffing Spanish due to how good they are as a pocket nowadays. However, I don't think this is a strong enough justification to not buff them. Spanish are way worse than the other comparably good pockets in pretty much every 1v1 format, as civ win rates prove. As a worst case scenario, if any buffs aimed at buffing Spanish in 1v1 overpower them in TGs, nerfing their trade bonus further or even the construction speed bonus would be justified.
• It's true that conq-mango feels so strong in certain situations... but the idea behind buffing Spanish is making the civ move away from just being good in 1 niche strat. This would be similar to how Koreans can execute well more strats than trushing nowadays, or to how not many people play Bulgarians just to FC-Krepost drop-Konniks.
• Spanish, same as Indians or Goths, are poorly designed though. In an ideal world the civ design would take more from the medieval Spanish history and be a Western European cav civ with a larger skirm/anti cav flavour. This would be inspired on how Spanish kingdoms' armies had to adapt to fight the Berber and Andalusian armies first, using units like jinetes/genitours, almogávares... and then start projecting some power across Western and Southern Europe from the 1300. However, we have to work with what we have.

Those things considered, Spanish could do with an eco bonus and possibly a military one too in order to make them interesting to play in 1v1.

• Eco bonus: it has surely been suggested before by other balance theorists, but I think that longer lasting huntables would be an appropriate buff. Similarly to Tatars, the capacity to delay farms would make life easier for Spanish at a time when they actually need help. Besides, it makes thematic sense, considering the traditional importance of hunting in Spain and how Spanish cuisine is able to use pretty much all the parts of certain animals ('Del cerdo, hasta los andares' = 'even the walking (can be eaten) of the pork').
• Military bonus: several interesting options have been thrown here and there, but all have their pluses and minuses. Free cav armour or discounted bloodlines could make sense, but risks making scout and knight pushes a bit too powerful (particularly the former). Receive xbows... would thematically make sense, but Bulgarians have proven than the lack of xbows is not what is holding Spanish back. Some form of buff to conqs... Conqs are already great in their role, and this would be just digging deeper the grave that the Conq niche means for Spanish. A slight food discount to some land units could be viable, but risks being too powerful in certain circumstances, so it should be balanced very well. My alternative suggestion would be give a slight anti cavalry bonus to Spanish stable units. Obviously this should be quite small, perhaps even a +1 would suffice. However, the positive implications to scout-knight rushes would be obvious and thematically it would make sense (Spanish armies have been traditionally good at anti-cavalry innovations, as their dealings with the Berber mobility or the introduction of tercio formations as partially a response to French heavy cav shows). This bonus would obviously make the trade bonus nerf compulsory though, as it would risk make them too OP in TGs, and I'd probably leave it on hold and see if just the eco bonus suffices.

Tl;dr: give Spanish longer lasting huntables and perhaps a slight anti cavalry bonus to their cavalry. Perhaps nerf trade bonus and potentially construction speed bonus if rebalance is needed.

 

[crashDismounted]

Spanish armies have been traditionally good at anti-cavalry innovations, as their dealings with the Berber mobility or the introduction of tercio formations as partially a response to French heavy cav shows

Could a buff to their pikeman-line be a thematically suitable idea?

 

[Bourne2Die]

I appreciate how many TG players would be frightened of buffing Spanish due to how good they are as a pocket nowadays. However, I don't think this is a strong enough justification to not buff them. Spanish are way worse than the other comparably good pockets in pretty much every 1v1 format, as civ win rates prove. As a worst case scenario, if any buffs aimed at buffing Spanish in 1v1 overpower them in TGs, nerfing their trade bonus further or even the construction speed bonus would be justified.

Why is it not justified to not want another broken civ for TGs that has to be picked in order to have a real chance in balanced TGs? Because you prefer 1v1? Or because your patriotism makes you feel like Spanish should be (one of) the strongest civ?

give Spanish longer lasting huntables and perhaps a slight anti cavalry bonus to their cavalry. Perhaps nerf trade bonus and potentially construction speed bonus if rebalance is needed.

Horrible ideas for multiple reasons:

what is one of the biggest strength of tatars? Going FC, because longer lasting food sources make that so easy. So you would basically push Spanish more towards fc conq play.

What could you do vs conq + mango? Potentially your own mangos or some cav to snipe the siege. Since Spanish will have a stable for upgrades anyway, this would just buff conq play further and also make Spanish a pretty broken pocket civ.

So why not leave a civ, that is really good in TGs and also has its spots in 1v1s as it is, since there are tons of viable civs for almost any map in 1v1s?

 

[An Fitheach]

Could a buff to their pikeman-line be a thematically suitable idea?

It would be more suitable for the AoE3 timeline, as the tercio formation developments didn't start until very late within the AoE2 timeframe. Considering the inclusion of conqs though, it may be suitable?

Why is it not justified to not want another broken civ for TGs that has to be picked in order to have a real chance in balanced TGs? Because you prefer 1v1? Or because your patriotism makes you feel like Spanish should be (one of) the strongest civ?




Horrible ideas for multiple reasons:

what is one of the biggest strength of tatars? Going FC, because longer lasting food sources make that so easy. So you would basically push Spanish more towards fc conq play.

What could you do vs conq + mango? Potentially your own mangos or some cav to snipe the siege. Since Spanish will have a stable for upgrades anyway, this would just buff conq play further and also make Spanish a pretty broken pocket civ.

So why not leave a civ, that is really good in TGs and also has its spots in 1v1s as it is, since there are tons of viable civs for almost any map in 1v1s?

Just replying to some of your points.

• It's not just me who wants a Spanish buff that impacts their 1v1 performance. Look at Hera's tier lists, or at their 1v1 performance (among the least picked and with a lower win rate civs) or the simple fact that this and other recent balance posts have been mentioning them very often lately. You can consider it funded or not, but there's a case to at least suggest a buff.
• This is the problem of making assumptions online of people who you don't know. I am actually a European unionist, not a Spanish nationalist at all, so your implication is just incorrect.
• Look at my post again. I mention several times that buffs should be balanced, and potentially countered by nerfs impacting their TG performance. It's common sense. They are already a very good TG civ, although not in all circumstances. Look at for example how they are being drafted in Pool 2 way more often than Pool 1 in Two Pools. This doesn't happen at all with any of the other good pocket civs. They are not broken in TG at the moment.
• A really common point raised when talking about Spanish bonuses is that they need something on the eco side. If I follow your reasoning, no eco bonuses could be given to Spanish because absolutely any eco bonus would potentially make FC easier for them than it is in the current balance. Delayed farms can be used for a smoother FC, of course... but they can also be used to get up a blacksmith earlier and add early aggro, or to add a range slightly earlier if you open scouts and need to switch to skirms.
• I agree with your implication that FC conqs is occasionally just too strong and their only real option... so you need to give them something to be able to have a smoother, more normal early game. That's what I try to do with my suggested buffs. Of course they can be horrible ideas, I haven't spent 40 hours testing how these would impact the game balance... but they are at least ideas that could give them more options.
• If the civ 'had its spots in 1v1' this topic wouldn't be open. In 1v1 it's a bottom tier civ or close in most formats, and its viability is reduced to a gimnicky strat. If these are not signs that the civ is unbalanced as it is and needs an enhancement, I don't know what they are.
• On your last point... Yeah, that's of course an option. I get that you don't think that Spanish need a buff. Fair enough. But... I am just the post #33 in this thread, why not say it to OP for example? I am just replying to the debate that OP opened, I am not the first person here saying that Spanish need a buff.

 

[Bourne2Die]

It would be more suitable for the AoE3 timeline, as the tercio formation developments didn't start until very late within the AoE2 timeframe. Considering the inclusion of conqs though, it may be suitable?


Just replying to some of your points.

• It's not just me who wants a Spanish buff that impacts their 1v1 performance. Look at Hera's tier lists, or at their 1v1 performance (among the least picked and with a lower win rate civs) or the simple fact that this and other recent balance posts have been mentioning them very often lately. You can consider it funded or not, but there's a case to at least suggest a buff.
• This is the problem of making assumptions online of people who you don't know. I am actually a European unionist, not a Spanish nationalist at all, so your implication is just incorrect.
• Look at my post again. I mention several times that buffs should be balanced, and potentially countered by nerfs impacting their TG performance. It's common sense. They are already a very good TG civ, although not in all circumstances. Look at for example how they are being drafted in Pool 2 way more often than Pool 1 in Two Pools. This doesn't happen at all with any of the other good pocket civs. They are not broken in TG at the moment.
• A really common point raised when talking about Spanish bonuses is that they need something on the eco side. If I follow your reasoning, no eco bonuses could be given to Spanish because absolutely any eco bonus would potentially make FC easier for them than it is in the current balance. Delayed farms can be used for a smoother FC, of course... but they can also be used to get up a blacksmith earlier and add early aggro, or to add a range slightly earlier if you open scouts and need to switch to skirms.
• I agree with your implication that FC conqs is occasionally just too strong and their only real option... so you need to give them something to be able to have a smoother, more normal early game. That's what I try to do with my suggested buffs. Of course they can be horrible ideas, I haven't spent 40 hours testing how these would impact the game balance... but they are at least ideas that could give them more options.
• If the civ 'had its spots in 1v1' this topic wouldn't be open. In 1v1 it's a bottom tier civ or close in most formats, and its viability is reduced to a gimnicky strat. If these are not signs that the civ is unbalanced as it is and needs an enhancement, I don't know what they are.
• On your last point... Yeah, that's of course an option. I get that you don't think that Spanish need a buff. Fair enough. But... I am just the post #33 in this thread, why not say it to OP for example? I am just replying to the debate that OP opened, I am not the first person here saying that Spanish need a buff.

i said the same thing regarding 1v1 civs and the not needed buff for Spanish earlier in this thread, just repeated it, cause it suited here.

The issue with eco bonus for Spanish is, that in that case you have to need conqs. At the moment conq + mango is a really strong combo, but it also is somewhat of an all in strat. If they get in the position to do the same, while having an eco bonus, you will suddenly have a civ, that might potentially OP (remember the times of cheaper and stronger arambai). And people will always try to get to conqs with Spanish, since it is such a powerful unit. If that is easier, you will not switch the focus from conqs, it will just happen even more often.

So you either have to take the civs identity, or you need to accept, that Spanish are only a situational civ for 1v1s, while being strong in TGs.

BTW: Spanish were drafted a few times in HC4, while a lot of other civs were not. So there clearly are even pro players out there, that see Spanish as a top civ for certain map types.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I am actually a European unionist, not a Spanish nationalist at all, so your implication is just incorrect.

Someone can be a European unionist while still having a soft spot for their own nationality and when you start your post by saying this you do leave that impression:

as a Spaniard frustrated with how much his own civ sucks

I think the comment about your bias was still a bit unfairly worded however.

 

[Shakal]

BTW: Spanish were drafted a few times in HC4, while a lot of other civs were not. So there clearly are even pro players out there, that see Spanish as a top civ for certain map types.

"A few times" = once in main event. They were used on quarry, a map which is not even similar to any map that commonly appears in ranked map pool and they lost even that one game

 

[lecracheursagacite]

"A few times" = once in main event. They were used on quarry, a map which is not even similar to any map that commonly appears in ranked map pool and they lost even that one game

Civs can be drafted but not used right? So drafted multiple times but only played once is possible.

 

[Steggy Dinosaur]

Maybe a buff to skirms? 25% faster RoF, +2 Bonus vs Spears, +2 Bonus vs Villagers?

Something in this direction. Spanish were famous for their javelineers. And would also buff their early game only and not their conq play.

 

[crashDismounted]

Maybe a buff to skirms? 25% faster RoF, +2 Bonus vs Spears, +2 Bonus vs Villagers?

Something in this direction. Spanish were famous for their javelineers. And would also buff their early game only and not their conq play.

"Skirmishers attack 25% faster" sounds reasonable

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Maybe a buff to skirms? 25% faster RoF, +2 Bonus vs Spears, +2 Bonus vs Villagers?

Something in this direction. Spanish were famous for their javelineers. And would also buff their early game only and not their conq play.

Maybe could just give them access to Genitours instead of ahistorically making that a Berber unique unit.

 

[An Fitheach]

Someone can be a European unionist while still having a soft spot for their own nationality and when you start your post by saying this you do leave that impression:

I think the comment about your bias was still a bit unfairly worded however.

Yeah, that's true. My bad. Maybe I should have omitted that first line, it was confusing and brought nothing to the topic. There's a significant gap though between 'having a soft spot for your own nationality', which surely the vast majority of us have even acknowledging their country's own issues, and being a patriot.

i said the same thing regarding 1v1 civs and the not needed buff for Spanish earlier in this thread, just repeated it, cause it suited here.

The issue with eco bonus for Spanish is, that in that case you have to need conqs. At the moment conq + mango is a really strong combo, but it also is somewhat of an all in strat. If they get in the position to do the same, while having an eco bonus, you will suddenly have a civ, that might potentially OP (remember the times of cheaper and stronger arambai). And people will always try to get to conqs with Spanish, since it is such a powerful unit. If that is easier, you will not switch the focus from conqs, it will just happen even more often.

So you either have to take the civs identity, or you need to accept, that Spanish are only a situational civ for 1v1s, while being strong in TGs.

BTW: Spanish were drafted a few times in HC4, while a lot of other civs were not. So there clearly are even pro players out there, that see Spanish as a top civ for certain map types.

Each of us has different points of view, and that's fine. I understand what you mean about the civ identity, and your concerns make a lot of sense.

The reason behind my train of thoughts is that, if the 1v1 identity of Spanish is sucking in almost all formats and only be viable for a gimnicky strat, that identity sucks and should be reformulated. Maybe my proposals were wrong and some form of early aggro bonus, like the skirm attack speed buff suggested above, would do the trick.

I don't think that civs with massive FC-UU potential have to be left without eco bonuses. Mayans have it and FC Plumes is not that common because they have other viable game plans, for example.

I also don't think that being a good pocket civ has to imply that we can accept that said civ has to be subpar in 1v1. By that rule of thumb, why aren't we nerfing Franks or Lithuanians to oblivion in 1v1?

As Shakal said, Spanish were only used once in HC4 and in a map very prone to the gimnicky strat we are talking about. I don't think that this pick implies anything good about Spanish balance.

Nothing else to add here, apologies if I've sounded too harsh sometimes!

Maybe could just give them access to Genitours instead of ahistorically making that a Berber unique unit.

This would be another valid option. There's a couple of points to think about though. On the one hand, if we are making them historical Portuguese should get them too. On the other hand, if we want to make genitour/jinete historical, they should actually be an anti cavalry unit, not anti archer. This would have balance implications.

 

[Surf_Meal]

Give the missionaries a matchlock pistol.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Yeah, that's true. My bad. Maybe I should have omitted that first line, it was confusing and brought nothing to the topic.

No I think it was fine. You are just humorously acknowledging something that will likely be thought by anyone who recognizes your profile flag. It is a nice way to ease into the post imo.

There's a significant gap though between 'having a soft spot for your own nationality', which surely the vast majority of us have even acknowledging their country's own issues, and being a patriot.

There is. I think he was just not being precise with his wording. Patriot can technically function as shorthand for that idea even though this meaning is typically lost because it is loaded with all the connotations you allude to here.

This would be another valid option. There's a couple of points to think about though. On the one hand, if we are making them historical Portuguese should get them too. On the other hand, if we want to make genitour/jinete historical, they should actually be an anti cavalry unit, not anti archer. This would have balance implications.

Well I am of the opinion that Portuguese are redundant with Spanish and aren't really needed, which I would say is a topic for another thread if I were not curious to hear your opinion on that. (I know there are distinct languages but they are broadly very very similar and feel identical thematically in AoE2.) Assuming Portuguese are kept however they definitely should have access to these as well; whichever post I read that told me jinete were not exclusively Berber did directly mention Portuguese as well as Spanish, and anyways it seems logical Portuguese kingdoms would have used them heavily too considering their similarities with the Spanish ones 11

As for anti-cavalry rather than anti-archer I would be completely fine with that idea even if balance implications need to be resolved. I personally think that light cavalry are generally not nearly susceptible enough to projectiles.

 

[An Fitheach]

Well I am of the opinion that Portuguese are redundant with Spanish and aren't really needed, which I would say is a topic for another thread if I were not curious to hear your opinion on that. (I know there are distinct languages but they are broadly very very similar and feel identical thematically in AoE2.) Assuming Portuguese are kept however they definitely should have access to these as well; whichever post I read that told me jinete were not exclusively Berber did directly mention Portuguese as well as Spanish, and anyways it seems logical Portuguese kingdoms would have used them heavily too considering their similarities with the Spanish ones 11

As for anti-cavalry rather than anti-archer I would be completely fine with that idea even if balance implications need to be resolved. I personally think that light cavalry are generally not nearly susceptible enough to projectiles.

It is an interesting topic indeed, which is a consequence of the design choice of making Spanish mostly a Modern Age, very late game civ. This comes from The Conquerors, obviously. To sum up, I think that it depends of if we are looking at these civs from a Middle or Modern Ages perspective, but in a vacuum I'd agree with you.

If the Middle Ages are used as the threshold to split Spanish and Portuguese, I fully agree with you, they are redundant.
The concept of Spain was different at that time. The idea of Hispania, meaning the whole peninsula and all the Christian kingdoms within it, was inherited from the Roman times. It was mostly a political construct at that time though, used by the most powerful kings to claim legitimacy over the whole peninsula. For example, Alfonso VI, the 'bad guy' in the El Cid campaign (history is more complex though) crowned himself as Imperator Totius Hispaniae after conquering Toledo. The Kingdom of Portugal was part of this idea, it was just one of the political entities in Hispania.
You could argue that they were culturally different to the other kingdoms... but any other kingdom can argue exactly the same. Portugal had significant cultural differences with Navarre exactly like Aragón had significant cultural differences with León. Portugal was, before its independence, the way to expand southwards and settle for Galicians, and was most of the time under Leonese political control (by the way, talking about 'patriotism'... my hometown. Those were the good old times for us), so it had significant influence of those regions. Portugal wasn't, in a vacuum, that culturally different to the other kingdoms to justify their own civ, I'd say. Funny that you mention the languages. During the middle ages, Portuguese was just starting branching out from Galician anyways.

If you design the civs purely around the early Modern Ages, as it was the original idea, it's justified that they are separate civs though. By that time the politics and cultures had diverged enough to justify this decision. I know this is a tiny paragraph compared to the others, but there's not much else to add here, it just makes sense.

Personally, I'd love to see just one civ that captures well the middle ages in Hispania and is more relevant to the AOE2 period. One umbrella civ that covers Portugal, León, Castile, Navarre and Aragón (and Catalonia, and Murcia, and Galicia, and Valencia...). This ideal civ should probably keep the good naval and gunpowder options that the current civs would have. The Iberian Peninsula was one of the first parts of Europe where gunpowder was important in warfare, and Castilian and Portuguese fleets started being quite successful in the late middle ages. However, the civ should move away from the memey conqs and missionaries that Spanish have (and the Portuguese organ guns) and focus, as their military core, on cavalry and javelineers/skirms, as these were the most defining traits of the peninsular warfare. Jinetes (ideally as a ranged anti cavalry cavalry unit) would make sense as a team UU, and either almogávares (although the idea behind these could be well covered by a military bonus to skirms, as suggested above) or some form of heavy cav related to the military orders, to reflect their importance during the late middle ages, would give more historically significant UUs that organ guns or conqs. However, this would imply a massive redesign that isn't going to happen, so this is just wishful thinking.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

This was very interesting reading thank you for that.The history of Iberia during the Middle Ages seems quite complex and I don't feel I ever learned it very well.

If the Middle Ages are used as the threshold to split Spanish and Portuguese, I fully agree with you, they are redundant.
The concept of Spain was different at that time. The idea of Hispania, meaning the whole peninsula and all the Christian kingdoms within it, was inherited from the Roman times. It was mostly a political construct at that time though, used by the most powerful kings to claim legitimacy over the whole peninsula. For example, Alfonso VI, the 'bad guy' in the El Cid campaign (history is more complex though) crowned himself as Imperator Totius Hispaniae after conquering Toledo. The Kingdom of Portugal was part of this idea, it was just one of the political entities in Hispania.
You could argue that they were culturally different to the other kingdoms... but any other kingdom can argue exactly the same. Portugal had significant cultural differences with Navarre exactly like Aragón had significant cultural differences with León. Portugal was, before its independence, the way to expand southwards and settle for Galicians, and was most of the time under Leonese political control (by the way, talking about 'patriotism'... my hometown. Those were the good old times for us), so it had significant influence of those regions. Portugal wasn't, in a vacuum, that culturally different to the other kingdoms to justify their own civ, I'd say. Funny that you mention the languages. During the middle ages, Portuguese was just starting branching out from Galician anyways.

Echoes of the HRE in Alfonso VI. Something I was never aware of but after hearing about it all I can think is "of course." If there was this unified concept throughout the Middle Ages (even if it was more a way for the various kings to stroke their egos) and such strong baseline similarities then I think that is a pretty solid argument for one civ personally. The Teutons more or less represent the same situation in Germany.

If you design the civs purely around the early Modern Ages, as it was the original idea, it's justified that they are separate civs though. By that time the politics and cultures had diverged enough to justify this decision. I know this is a tiny paragraph compared to the others, but there's not much else to add here, it just makes sense.

Personally, I'd love to see just one civ that captures well the middle ages in Hispania and is more relevant to the AOE2 period. One umbrella civ that covers Portugal, León, Castile, Navarre and Aragón (and Catalonia, and Murcia, and Galicia, and Valencia...). This ideal civ should probably keep the good naval and gunpowder options that the current civs would have. The Iberian Peninsula was one of the first parts of Europe where gunpowder was important in warfare, and Castilian and Portuguese fleets started being quite successful in the late middle ages. However, the civ should move away from the memey conqs and missionaries that Spanish have (and the Portuguese organ guns) and focus, as their military core, on cavalry and javelineers/skirms, as these were the most defining traits of the peninsular warfare. Jinetes (ideally as a ranged anti cavalry cavalry unit) would make sense as a team UU, and either almogávares (although the idea behind these could be well covered by a military bonus to skirms, as suggested above) or some form of heavy cav related to the military orders, to reflect their importance during the late middle ages, would give more historically significant UUs that organ guns or conqs. However, this would imply a massive redesign that isn't going to happen, so this is just wishful thinking.

Yep this is exactly the problem. Ensemble went against their own original design philosophy when they released the first expansion. I have never thought that Conquerors was a well done expansion and if the game had not been known for so long as AoC then I think it would be more commonly held opinion. Early modern identity can serve as guideline for the imperial age theme but the civs themselves need to have been established earlier since the game as you point out is centered thematically on the high middle ages, not on the early modern period. The changes you describe sound very interesting and seem like they would make Spanish (or whatever you would want to rename the civ to - Hispanians I guess?) far more interesting than they currently are in the Castle Age. You are obviously right that these would never be considered which is sad to me. I don't think there is any inherent reason not to consider bigger scale redesigns. The game has diverged so much from AoK at this point it is hard to find any concern about "changing things too much" a very compelling argument.