AOE-II DE Some balance changes I'd like to see

[slothismysin]

Man-at-arms​

• Upgrade time reduces from 40s to 20s in Castle Age

Long Swordsman​

• Upgrade time reduces from 45s to 25s in Imperial Age

Two-handed Swordsman​

• Upgrade time from 75s to 60s

Champion​

• Upgrade time from 100s to 80s

It's hard to switch to infantry.

Fast Fire Ships​

• Bonus damage vs buildings: +3 -> +1
• Bonus damage vs standard buildings: +0 -> +2

This ensures a minimum of 2 damage vs buildings even when masonry is researched (otherwise Fast Fires do the same damage as Fire Galleys).

Fishing Ships​

• Can drop off at Town Centres.

Useful for amphibious terrain.

Aztecs​

• Jaguar Warrior: upgrade cost from 1000f,500g to 800f,800w
• (Elite) Jaguar Warrior: Line of sight from 3(5) to 4(6)
• Elite Jaguar Warrior: creation time from 12 seconds to 10 seconds

This niche counter unit could be made a bit easier to use. The Aztecs have the weakest castles, so the creation time bump is especially helpful.

Bohemians​

• (Elite) Hussite Wagon: Fixed the bug where cancelling an attack before the additional shots are fired causes the primary shot of the next attack to be replaced with a (low damage) secondary attack.
• (Elite) Hussite Wagon: attack delay reduced from 0.93 to 0.6

Annoying bug. Would make the units a bit easier to use.

Bulgarians​

• Bagains: cost from 900f,450g to 800f,400g

Infantry is hard to justify, but cheaper UTs would make it an easier sell.

Burmese​

• Team bonus (vision of relics) changed to civ bonus
• New team bonus: infantry +2 LoS

Currently the Vietnamese TC vision bonus is a civ bonus (but their allies get it thanks to shared vision), which makes the Burmese team bonus seem a bit lackluster.

Celts​

• Siege weapons fire bonus from 25% to 15%/25% in Castle Age / Imperial Age
• Stronghold: additionally affects Town Centres, and causes units garrisoned in buildings heal 8× faster.
• Herbal Medicine is no longer available.

Underutilised tech. Herbal Medicine gives 6x, so this would be like Herbal Medicine+

Huns​

• (Elite) Tarkan: Attack rate from 2.1 to 2

This puts them on the same attack speed as camels, elephants, lancers, and scout/light cav, but they still attack slower than knights, hussars, etc.

Incas​

• Andean Sling: additionally removes the attack delay for Skirmishers and Slingers
• Andean Sling cost from 200f,300g to 200f,300w

This tech currently isn't really worth it.

Khmer​

• Houses garrison heal rate: from 0 to 6 HP/min (same as a TC/tower).

intuitive behaviour - seems like an oversight.

Malians​

• Tigui: additionally increases TC damage by 1

This tech isn't picked up much. Malians lack bracer, so this puts them on par with other civs in Imperial Age.

Mongols​

• Nomads: changed from just affecting houses to affecting all buildings which grant population space
• Nomads: research time from 40 seconds to 5 seconds

This tech currently isn't great - it could be better if it was a panic button to stop you from getting housed when you are about to lose a castle.

Slavs​

• Druzhina: cost from 1200f,500g to 900f,450g

Infantry is hard to justify, but cheaper UTs would make it an easier sell.

Spanish​

• Missionary: can pick up relics, but moves at the speed of a monk when carrying a relic (has to dismount to pick them up)

This unit isn't seen much. My alternative idea is to make them a bit cheaper and quicker to create.

Teutons​

• Crenellations: cost from 600f,400s to 600f, 400g

The stone cost is ugly.

Vietnamese​

• Chatras: HP bonus from 100 to 70
• New civ bonus: Battle Elephants gain 30 HP

A little push toward elephants with the "Saracens treatment".

 

[Vossn]

These mainly are decent suggestions, as far as I can see...
North-Korea though.

Some notes:
-Making it easier to techswitch into infantry, without strengthening the M@A powerspike. Probably not a bad change, though it would probably be mainly a nerf to eagles, since the rest of infantry problem are inherent to the units, not the upgrades. Making the time to tech into them earlier by 1min15 is quite a lot though. I don't think the 2HS, or champ research time necessarily need to be lowered as well, but what do I know?
-I don't remember ever seeing Jaguar warriors, not a bad idea.
-I don't think Bohemians need a good UU. What they have now is quite weak, yet they're still a strong civ, with multiple lines of play. If you buff it, I think you need to nerf their other lines. Some has given suggestions of general eco nerfs, such as removing the last mining upgrades, but I'm unsure if that's enough if their UU is made viable.
-Burmese civ bonus would now also apply to team, since the recent change. LOS bonuses are underrated, and +2 LOS fits in with other LOS team bonuses. Not a bad change, I'd think.
-Giving a herbal-medicine-like effect to celt UT seems a bit odd. Strongholds should probably be altered. I would've perhaps changed it to a team bonus, but Celts don't really need such a buff. Giving the bonus to tc's as well is a nice touch as well.
-I think the Khmer bonus is enough as is, healing would make it too strong, always thought that was the reason, not an oversight, wouldn't support that change.
-I think missionary's are fine as they are. If they could pick up relics, why even make monks with Spanish, except for the extra range? True, they are not seen a lot, but competitively I'd think that that's a)because Spanish isn't seen unless on Nomad, which is often quite messy, and b) I think it's an underrated unit.

I've mentioned all changes I wanted to say something on, I think the rest looks quite decent, at least better than some other suggestions for balance changes we have seen...

 

[Paint]

These are all reasonable actually.

 

[KolyaKrasotkin]

Funny how one reads the thread title and automatically assumes that the equalizer has been striking again.
Live is full of pleasant surprises.

 

[LowEloNobody]

Pretty reasonable suggestions overall. Wouldn't be upset if any of these happened

 

[amazing_knight]

Please change the goths bonus of killing boars faster. Don't need boars dying 10 miles away from my TC.

 

[Progeusz]

When i saw the meme flag i thought it's another alt account of certain user who loves to make balance changes posts but it turns out this one is really well thought out. The changes sound really good and i'd love to see them implemented. The only one I disagree with is Khmer, it certainly wasn't an oversight, it was a conscious decision and a good one. That said, it would be interesting to see how things would play out if the regen was implemented, Khmer aren't as dominant as they were a year or two ago.

 

[Progeusz]

-I think missionary's are fine as they are. If they could pick up relics, why even make monks with Spanish, except for the extra range?

For the extra range. Lack of range is main reason why missionaries suck. Ability to pick up relics is a secondary concern. Monks would still be a better unit for conversions, even if missionaries could pick up relics. Keep in mind extra range also means longer line of sight. Monks see enemy units faster and know whether to convert or return to safety. Difference in speed isn't enough to equalize that crucial flaw of missionaries. Missionaries aren't really a mobile unit, they can't keep up with cavalry armies and they die to ranged units as easily as monks (more hp but less range).

 

[slothismysin]

When i saw the meme flag i thought it's another alt account of certain user who loves to make balance changes posts but it turns out this one is really well thought out

Thanks, I also post on reddit

submitted by slothismysin

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Please change the goths bonus of killing boars faster. Don't need boars dying 10 miles away from my TC.

I'm not too phased about that one (it usually doesn't impact things too much and Goth are kinda fine), but I have heard a cool idea to replace it:

• Villagers don't need to drop off food when hunting.

i.e. like Khmer don't need to drop off food while farming. Might be a bit too OP (e.g. esp on black forest), idk

 

[Lokalo]

• Villagers don't need to drop off food when hunting.

i.e. like Khmer don't need to drop off food while farming. Might be a bit too OP (e.g. esp on black forest), idk

Lyx would pick goths all the time and eat enemy boars in every team game unless players lure boars min 2 haha

 

[Davion]

Vietnamese​

• Chatras: HP bonus from 100 to 70
• New civ bonus: Battle Elephants gain 30 HP

Thanks for leaving the Waytoodank Elephants as they are

 

[USC_kiky]

I feel that the training time of eagle scouts is too long to be useful for the Meso civs. Maybe we should reduce their training time from 60s to 50s, which is still significantly longer than their training time in the castle age (35s).

 

[Lokalo]

I feel that the training time of eagle scouts is too long to be useful for the Meso civs. Maybe we should reduce their training time from 60s to 50s, which is still significantly longer than their training time in the castle age (35s).

Well they are overall quite useless in feudal age in my opinion due low speed super kiteable and works only if there are pure skirms, overall not even close to scouts. Although issue is that they are quite broken in castle age, there are tons of games where people win just spamming that dumb unit with no eco and win. I mean is not neccessary super OP as per say, but it's very strong compared as easy is to spam 1 unit.

Well it's a bit off topic, but what I mean is that I would agree with a little buff of them in feudal, however then there should be some debuff overall, for example long spoken about food cost increase. None of mezo civs need a buff, so even though EW in feudal is trash it doesn't make those civs weak.

 

[kalpit00]

Give missionaries 8 range instead of 7 and they will be hugely impacted. Just that 1 range can make a difference because most ranged and siege units have 7 range in castle age. Currently, we add monks to convert knights because they cannot be sniped as easily by mangonels or xbows (7 vs 9 range). And don't forget, in monk battles, timing is everything. Just +3/+3 armor or some hp on bengali/aztec monks makes them crazy strong because they can survive 1 or 2 hits more, which makes all the difference in whether a unit is converted or not. And with missionaries speed, we might even convert and runaway with them from knights, a perfect utility unit

 

[kalpit00]

Well they are overall quite useless in feudal age in my opinion due low speed super kiteable and works only if there are pure skirms, overall not even close to scouts. Although issue is that they are quite broken in castle age, there are tons of games where people win just spamming that dumb unit with no eco and win. I mean is not neccessary super OP as per say, but it's very strong compared as easy is to spam 1 unit.

Well it's a bit off topic, but what I mean is that I would agree with a little buff of them in feudal, however then there should be some debuff overall, for example long spoken about food cost increase. None of mezo civs need a buff, so even though EW in feudal is trash it doesn't make those civs weak.

its 2023 and devs still haven't nerfed eagles. Not much we can do, it's just a unit which is so super broken at mid-semi decent level just because of their cheap dirt cost and utility. The fact they counter xbows, and also produce at 3:1 rate (cost wise, 20f vs 60f for a kt) means any decent player who has an understanding of the game can win vs most civs on arabia, bc they know the opponent cannot make army at the required time (like if he is going kts, eagle player knows he just needs to idle gold and is gg, don't matter if u are 1 tc or not, or if he is going xbow or CA, again eagle player can choose the poison to kill, either patrol and macro behind to imp, or make him fwd siege and make him react in 3-4 spots).

This is the difference tho, a lot of 2k3+ pros know of this deadly play, (even then aztec mayans are 1st picks for arabia) and so they have to play the game with a certain caution - no slipups because the comeback potential is huge for mesos. But at the 16-17xx level, its so op because thats a level where players might be 100% in one spot, but 75-75 in 2 spots, and even lower in 3-4 spots, so vs eagles where u have to constantly micro in 2-3 places, macro at the same time and react vs small eagle group raiding, it becomes an impossible task.

I am gonna link a very classic set from Viper vs Liereyy which should tell you how crazy Viper was in this game (G4) to win.

Time Stamp: 1:38:00

TheViper vs Liereyy | Best of 7 | $300 Showmatch

A showmatch put together by T90. Best of 7 on different maps._________________________________________________Join my channel with a Channel Membership ► htt...

www.youtube.com

 

[slothismysin]

its 2023 and devs still haven't nerfed eagles

the problem with nerfing eagles is that if they are nerfed too hard then meso civs won't be very viable. I don't think the unit itself is that broken, but rather that Aztecs and Mayans have strong ecos - Incan Eagles just imply the same threat.

 

[kalpit00]

the problem with nerfing eagles is that if they are nerfed too hard then meso civs won't be very viable. I don't think the unit itself is that broken, but rather that Aztecs and Mayans have strong ecos - Incan Eagles just imply the same threat.

well true but thats part of the problem. The eagle cost being so cheap and the fact that you can pull off such bs aggression with 6 on food and 20 on gold. aztec and mayan are better than incas, but eco is not the only thing. Aztec have strong monks, and mayans have the ranged units. Incas don't really have any special tech until imperial age with fabric shields. I don't think nerfing eco is the way, just make eagles cost a bit more food and should be fine

 

[SouFire]

You shouldn't touch eagle cost, that unit was designed by the masterminds of ensemble studios not FE and co, meso civs have no camels, eles no knights or steppe lancers and less shrivamsha rider, eagle already cost too much gold for what it offers compared to shrivamsha rider or steppe lancer.

You guys clearly don't and probably will never understand that without eagles being accesible those civs will go to waste, any civ would counter meso civs hard with just skirms and that would be pathetic.

We are not in aoc times, infantry units were buffed a lot, even the two hands swordman got buffed in terms of stats and cost reduction with supplies, without mentioning the addition of super stupid units like the obuch.

Aztecs have been nerfed to a point that they are really weak outside arena and mayans have been pushed out from the top 5 like 15 civs ago, so don't bother with the meso civs again.

 

[Rissen]

its 2023 and devs still haven't nerfed eagles

It's 2023 and people still haven't cut the bullshit about nerfing eagles. None of the eagle civs have 60% w/r, yet, you keep acting as if they do

 

[Paint]

It's 2023 and people still haven't cut the bullshit about nerfing eagles. None of the eagle civs have 60% w/r, yet, you keep acting as if they do

you are stupid if you think a civ needs 60% win rate to be OP, that would mean they would win 20% more then there opponent... that is like Cumans release levels of winning.

 

[Rissen]

Most of these changes are good. But the problem I have with the swordsman line, is that after m@a feudal rush, there's rarely anything they're good against until post-imp trash wars (excepting eagles and huskarls for instance). They need a new target unit they're good against (e.g having an attack bonus), and this target unit also should emerge on its own merit as a valid option.

For example think of it as a new melee Axeman-line that appears in Feudal Age in the barracks. This Axeman must be countered by the militia-line, but has some useful trait that makes it usable in all available ages; this could be either a good raiding unit, or a soft counter to cavalry and/or archers, or high damage but weak, or low damage but cheap, etc. Anything that makes this hypothetical unit useful, would also make it popular, and thus make the militia-line a more viable in the metagame

 

[Rissen]

you are stupid if you think a civ needs 60% win rate to be OP, that would mean they would win 20% more then there opponent... that is like Cumans release levels of winning.

You simply don't know how to play against eagles. They're not OP but they're needed, and they do not need a nerf, no matter how much you come crying to the forums to vent your frustrations

 

[Paint]

You simply don't know how to play against eagles. They're not OP but they're needed, and they do not need a nerf, no matter how much you come crying to the forums to vent your frustrations

I don't care about eagles but your 60% comment was just stupid

 

[Uselessaurus Rex]

You guys clearly don't and probably will never understand....

How far up your own arse do you need to be to write this?

 

[Progeusz]

How far up your own arse do you need to be to write this?

So far he's coming out on the other side.