Retitled: "AoE2:DE's Multiplayer will be server-based" - Cysion

[Überrushung]

After watching the video I noticed many of the changes and new features they're adding to the game help simplify the game and help prevent 'stupid' mistakes. From a pro player standpoint I'm worried that they might oversimplify the game to the point where the ceiling (skillcap) is drastically lowered. I've always loved the fact that no matter how good you are (or think you are) there is always something that you can improve on. I'm not saying these features are bad, in fact i'm a fan of most of them, but I really hope we can hang on to somewhat of a high ceiling to really push players to keep on practicing and improving.

Viper shows all the pros a new ceiling at every tournament. I don't think anyone has to worry.

 

[Michaerbse]

I don't think adding quality of life automation features for simple tasks dumbs down the game, rather making the player perform simple tasks repetitively is more likely to turn them into an ass. einstein didn't become a ***** because his wife washed his dishes for him whilst he was working on a paper.

Bad example. Didn't Einstein have a rather repetitive job at the patent office?

 

[_Mr_St4rk_]

I Share the same concern as Hera regarding that matter...

 

[MaSmOrRa]

At first glance the game looks amazing hands down! The graphics are stunning and the layout is clean and easy to follow.

After watching the video I noticed many of the changes and new features they're adding to the game help simplify the game and help prevent 'stupid' mistakes. From a pro player standpoint I'm worried that they might oversimplify the game to the point where the ceiling (skillcap) is drastically lowered. I've always loved the fact that no matter how good you are (or think you are) there is always something that you can improve on. I'm not saying these features are bad, in fact i'm a fan of most of them, but I really hope we can hang on to somewhat of a high ceiling to really push players to keep on practicing and improving.

That being said I will acknowledge that most of these features are geared towards the newer players or those learning the game, which is definitely a larger audience to appeal to. This game needs more players (at all levels) more than anything so if these changes help with that goal, I'm all for it!

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, but allow me to disagree just a little with you there.

I personally believe that when one trivial task is made easier to perform, the skill ceiling doesn't actually drop. What will happen in my opinion, is that talented players such as yourself will use the time they save with the automation to become even better at the other, more important aspects of the game: micro, macro, decision making, etc.

So in other words, by introducing some sort of automation to trivial tasks such as farm reseeding, you are actually increasing the skillcap by allowing better players to become better at more decisive aspects of the game.

Take SC2 as an example. It doesn't put nearly as much emphasis on the economy as AoE2 does.
Does that mean the skill ceiling is lower compared to AoE?
Nope, it just means that pro players become insanely good at microing and decision making instead.

 

[Sinken]

I mostly agree with you, Marmorra, and individually your points make a lot of sense. I'm just worried that adding too many things that automate the game (i.e command queuing, being able to queue upgrades, automatic farm reseed, etc if there are more things they haven't spoiled) is going to change how the game is played too much

I don't think it lowers the skill ceiling at all, like you said, but one of the parts that differentiates AoE2 from a lot of other RTS is exactly the fact that you do have to micro your economy, constantly. It's never just click and go. Some automation won't hurt, I just hope it won't be to the point where the amount of time spent microing your eco is significantly diminished. No matter what happens I'm sure we'll get used to it, though

 

[Jineapple]

I Share the same concern as Hera regarding that matter...

I don't think it's an issue with the types of things we have heard about so far. Auto-Queue or such would be problematic, but what do we have?
- Automatic Farm Queue: Won't be relevant in the early game (too big of a chance a vill spends wood when you need it for something else), just means in late game you don't need to go back to the mill to spam farms in the queue. A little convenience, not a big impact
- Command queueing: A very nice feature, that will make many little things a bit easier - but it also opens up new possibilities for villager micro and such that would previously not have been worth it. Don't think this lowers skill ceiling in any way.
- military only selection: Avoids a few annoyances but nothing that has a huge impact on skill ceiling either.
- Global queue UI: Arguably this makes it a bit easier to remember training your units instead of having buildings idle. On the other hand you still need to look for it (It's easy to miss how many resources you have too, even though it's always shown) and you still need to cycle through the buildings anyway.

It's definitely something too keep in mind, too much automation would change the way the game is played significatnly (with a bigger focus on military micro I guess) but I don't think that would be the case here.

 

[Hera_]

You actually prove a really good point masmora. I guess its an issue similar to multi queue where we now spend more time on microing fights rather than production. However im still uneasy about just how many quality of life changes their making. Im a player that likes the all in strategies that put ur opponent in an uncomfy situation, thus forcing mistakes. With all these changes im wondering if too much will be automated to the point where its super easy to maintain control under pressure. To be honest as of now these changes aren't too drastic or game changing, so this is just a minor concern of mine for the time being. In any case i stand by my point that its good for newer players so ill be all for it no matter what they come up with, ill adapt accordingly no doubt!

 

[Cysion]

Hey everyone, first of all: indeed, it was a very short stream. E3 is a massive show and we were happy to be one of the games to get a little slot during the Mixer livestream.

I'll try to respond to a few things in this thread:

• Multiplayer: MP has been completely ripped out and built from the ground up, to be a server-based model. However, to know where we are exactly on MP, we need the community's input through the multiplayer beta. That beta will start soon and you can sign up through ageofempires.com.
• Pathfinding: I totally messed up during that video with the attack move, had various melee units in defensive/stand ground mode. We're experimenting with a setting which sets default stance for units to defensive and I forgot to turn it off. (note: this is optional, not forced)
• As many people mentioned: new QoL features are there to raise the skill cap, not lower it. Except we move the skill to the actual core of the game (strategy, execution), away from the ability to deal with the UI quickly. Or in other words: less fighting the UI, more fighting the enemy.
• Price point of Age2DE is $19.99, with a $5 discount for people who own HD. Bringing it down to $14.99.
  
  So basically, the price of the new expansion ($9.99) and then $5 extra for everything else. Especially for people who are missing any expansions, that's a good deal.

 

[Jineapple]

MP has been completely ripped out and built from the ground up, to be a server-based model.

For real? I would not have thought that was in the books. That's awesome news!

 

[simonsan]

MP has been completely ripped out and built from the ground up, to be a server-based model.

Awesome! <3

 

[SouFire]

For the first time i kinda agree with the new changes, they make life simpler but it will push the game execution near to perfection. The farm and technologies queue are a must for any rts game from ten years ago, not adding this feature would have been a mistake.

 

[patao]

WHAT

The server based MP is shocking. Incredible news @Cysion.

Can you share a bit more about how it is architected? Even the most basics. I am stunned! I didn't think it was going to be possible without so many engine changes that it would become infeasible

 

[OLADUSHEK]

Or in other words: less fighting the UI, more fighting the enemy.

These words!!!

 

[Black Adder]

Pathfinding: I totally messed up during that video with the attack move, had various melee units in defensive/stand ground mode. We're experimenting with a setting which sets default stance for units to defensive and I forgot to turn it off. (note: this is optional, not forced)

While the other things are nice, this doesn't explain the behaviour I described above at all. Even if Attack Move is not really working well (which would be by itself concerning), the units are clearly struggling with pathfinding.

 

[simonsan]

While the other things are nice, this doesn't explain the behaviour I described above at all. Even if Attack Move is not really working well (which would be by itself concerning), the units are clearly struggling with pathfinding.

Basically the post of cysion above shows, that they start to care what the community says. Which is a good thing. This is still WIP so pathfinding might change still and could be also improved with future patches (e.g. Aoe1DE).

 

[Black Adder]

Basically the post of cysion above shows, that they start to care what the community says. Which is a good thing. This is still WIP so pathfinding might change still and could be also improved with future patches (e.g. Aoe1DE).

I know what hot mess AoEDE pathfinding was in Beta (and it still wasn't great at release), I was there, but if it's WiP, then say it's WiP, don't try to say it's caused by something else when that even doesn't hold up.

That doesn't show to me they care about the community and want to communicate honestly and seriously.

 

[Gregstein]

Hum.. Hum.. I had expected the implementation of Client server 4 days ago and I'm pleased as punch to live to experience this moment. Thank you for the good news, Cysion!

 

[simonsan]

That doesn't show to me they care about the community and want to communicate honestly and seriously.

Let's say it like this: They make some babysteps into communicating with the community. As you see all the information regarding AoE2DE dripping down at every place slowly. It's a mess, tbh. But at least the information we get somehow after a while. So I would not be so rude, to say "they don't care at all", they just make small steps in the right direction over time. I appreciate it.

 

[Gregstein]

That doesn't show to me they care about the community

Rude.. You have no idea how much effort is put into a client server multiplayer architecture. Just the fact they took care of multiplayer shows how deeply they care.

 

[Black Adder]

Don't confuse caring for the community and caring for good sales and profit. Also don't confuse PR and marketing with honesty.

 

[T-West]

Multiplayer: MP has been completely ripped out and built from the ground up, to be a server-based model. However, to know where we are exactly on MP, we need the community's input through the multiplayer beta. That beta will start soon and you can sign up through ageofempires.com.

I hope we get an updated version of this write-up: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131503/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php

 

[Jineapple]

I know what hot mess AoEDE pathfinding was in Beta (and it still wasn't great at release), I was there, but if it's WiP, then say it's WiP, don't try to say it's caused by something else when that even doesn't hold up.

That doesn't show to me they care about the community and want to communicate honestly and seriously.

Or Cysion just hasn't analyzed every second of that situation, noticed that his units weren't behaving properly and also noticed that his stances were off. Doesn't mean it's some coverup as you imply. Also, I think that it doesn't need to be explicitely specified that it's a WiP - it's a beta, of course it is.

 

[Musashi]

Super excited for DE -- They're doing everything right, from the UI, to price to graphics, to everything It's hard to please everyone obviously but so far this looks beyond most of us' expectations!

 

[Black Adder]

Or Cysion just hasn't analyzed every second of that situation, noticed that his units weren't behaving properly and also noticed that his stances were off. Doesn't mean it's some coverup as you imply. Also, I think that it doesn't need to be explicitely specified that it's a WiP - it's a beta, of course it is.

Sure, could be, my main point was there is something more going on than stances, looking forward to him analysing it better - we'll see soon enough in Beta I guess :-)

 

[Poxo]

• Pathfinding: I totally messed up during that video with the attack move, had various melee units in defensive/stand ground mode.

We are not new to the game (most of us here are tryhards that have played over 1000 hours just in the last 1/2 years), units on stand ground don't behave like that. It can be seen on the vid how some units are standing, decide to fight, kill something, wait, then move to a new unit and continue fighting. Seems to me like the game just takes too much time to chose a new target unless manually selected. Hope it gets fixed by the time is out.

Everything else sounds good.