Result of BadBoy investigation?

[Influenza]

Hey everyone, I was just wondering what became of the unbiased investigation that surely took place regarding the accusations against up-and-coming pro player BadBoy? It's been more than a year since then and I recently noticed his signup for a tournament so my interest was piqued.
For reference: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/i-watched-a-pretty-sus-stream-from-badboy.171908/

While I personally believe that all skilled aoe2 players are by necessity of upstanding moral character, (i.e. Capoch) and would never try to get a competitive advantage by untoward means, I recognize that many people did in fact take those accusations seriously. Knowing how thorough and fair the AoE2 tournament organizers are, I'm sure that BadBoy has long since been vetted and passed with flying colors. Looking forward to hearing the details so the air can be cleared once and for all!

Cheers

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

His name tells the whole story

 

[komtan]

influ public prosecutor ((((；ﾟДﾟ))))

 

[Paint]

I respect the attempt to start a new drama topic but no one cares about this one.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Hey everyone, I was just wondering what became of the unbiased investigation that surely took place regarding the accusations against up-and-coming pro player BadBoy? It's been more than a year since then and I recently noticed his signup for a tournament so my interest was piqued.
For reference: https://www.aoezone.net/threads/i-watched-a-pretty-sus-stream-from-badboy.171908/

While I personally believe that all skilled aoe2 players are by necessity of upstanding moral character, (i.e. Capoch) and would never try to get a competitive advantage by untoward means, I recognize that many people did in fact take those accusations seriously. Knowing how thorough and fair the AoE2 tournament organizers are, I'm sure that BadBoy has long since been vetted and passed with flying colors. Looking forward to hearing the details so the air can be cleared once and for all!

Cheers

Oh man I forgot how cringe everyone trying to defend him was.

 

[doacid]

So what is your take regarding the stance of pro players and tournament organizers? (They mostly ignored the post)

A) The rest of pro players are tacitly defending him like medics defend each other after killing a patient

B) They don't think stream cheating on ladder games is that important, after all it only affects an insignificant portion of player base.

C) There were way too many "coincidences" but the proof is indirect and not definite so why bother.

D) The way the post was conducted made them feel like not even touching it with a ten foot pole?

E) All of the above.

F) Other explanations.

G) Not streamcheating.

---

I'll just take after the wise and eloquent Modri -- and roll my eyes at all of you "trolls and idiots of aoezone," and then like Modri add some virtue signaling of my own. Like Modri, despite my healthy disdain for the lot of you (coincidentally exclusively when your viewpoints don't align with my own,) I also still care about what you think enough to argue with you, even when you're wrong.

Regardless of it, these lines made me chuckle, specially the part in brackets 11. It somehow reminded me of the speech Bilbo gave in his "eleventy first" birthday party, just before disappearing into thin air.

 

[malamadre]

Let me call Inspector Gadget so he can investigate this shameful incident.

 

[oozkan]

Influenza at his best, thanks for reminding this one, it is been a while. As far as I remember he was magically aware of opponent vils and his knights were always in right place and meanwhile he was betting for his own game with alt tab also chatting. As far as I remember even 2K+ players were divided. Good old drama topic.

But didn't we conclude this matter like since badboy knew some other 2k+ people who can support him so he won't be banned from tourneys. Being part of circle pays.

 

[The Bloodless]

Most obvious stream cheater ever 111. I guess tournament organizers don't give a crap though

 

[Paint]

Why do people care about ladder games?

 

[The Bloodless]

Why do people care about ladder games?

People don't like cheater

 

[DracKeN]

I was also shocked by the absolute lack of interest that all tournament admins showed. While I love Chrazini, that's mainly his fault as he was the guy in charge of RBW events, KotD.. It's also really bad precedent how we're going to handle cheating. There are thousands of players competing in tournaments, tens of thousands playing ladder games - very small part of this are cheating. And finding a cheater like this with such evidence is unlikely, most cheaters are far smarter and not make it that obvious. And when we still manage to find one and expose him, he can still participate in tournaments..

Regarding Badboy, basically all high level players agreed he's indeed cheating in 2020. If he's cheating in 2022 - can't tell. However, I'd always ask for 15+ min delay against him in tournament games and I'd not allow him in my tournaments. I'm not sure Badboy should be banned from events in general right now though, optimal solution would be like 1 year ban from all tournaments right when he was exposed - sadly didn't happen. Also quite dissapointed by the VNS A team, who lately started to team Badboy for TG tournaments, don't think they need to lose credit like this.

However, even more shocking is that Mr. Bean can play in tournaments. While the evidence of Badboy is like 90%, Mr. Bean was literally streaming his PoV while also showing 2nd monitor with opponent stream at the same time. There's 0 chance you'll find anyone else as stupid with so clear evidence. Also, from the games I played against him while streaming my PoV, I always had extremelly suspicious feeling how well he's reading the game, how well he's prepared for some of my unorthodox decisions and so.. If I'd not know about him being caught cheating in the past, I'd just say this is the new DauT/Viper given his quality of decision making. So I'm very sure he's still cheating (I mean he was cheating before, didn't get punished, why would he change 11), there's a crystal-clear evidence he was cheating in the past and he can also play any tournament he wants...

 

[Liamsmalley7]

Lol, I remember thinking this was gonna blow up into some huge drama. Turns out everybody just forgot about it and nothing happened

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I was also shocked by the absolute lack of interest that all tournament admins showed. While I love Chrazini, that's mainly his fault as he was the guy in charge of RBW events, KotD.. It's also really bad precedent how we're going to handle cheating. There are thousands of players competing in tournaments, tens of thousands playing ladder games - very small part of this are cheating. And finding a cheater like this with such evidence is unlikely, most cheaters are far smarter and not make it that obvious. And when we still manage to find one and expose him, he can still participate in tournaments..

Regarding Badboy, basically all high level players agreed he's indeed cheating in 2020. If he's cheating in 2022 - can't tell. However, I'd always ask for 15+ min delay against him in tournament games and I'd not allow him in my tournaments. I'm not sure Badboy should be banned from events in general right now though, optimal solution would be like 1 year ban from all tournaments right when he was exposed - sadly didn't happen. Also quite dissapointed by the VNS A team, who lately started to team Badboy for TG tournaments, don't think they need to lose credit like this.

However, even more shocking is that Mr. Bean can play in tournaments. While the evidence of Badboy is like 90%, Mr. Bean was literally streaming his PoV while also showing 2nd monitor with opponent stream at the same time. There's 0 chance you'll find anyone else as stupid with so clear evidence. Also, from the games I played against him while streaming my PoV, I always had extremelly suspicious feeling how well he's reading the game, how well he's prepared for some of my unorthodox decisions and so.. If I'd not know about him being caught cheating in the past, I'd just say this is the new DauT/Viper given his quality of decision making. So I'm very sure he's still cheating (I mean he was cheating before, didn't get punished, why would he change 11), there's a crystal-clear evidence he was cheating in the past and he can also play any tournament he wants...

@T90Official Thoughts on this?

 

[zShades]

Mr bean playstyle is indeed extremely weird. Everytime i play him, im so scared to move the scout anywhere Kappa, if u lose it u lose the game, cuz he might do anything and it will 100% work. doesnt matter about maps, civs or anything; he will have 2 archers sneaked behind your only open side or he will fc your face. Reading the game vs him it's a huge gamble. I remember a game where i sneaked a stable (very close, but outside); after being fully open for the first 8 minutes of the game, he decided to fully wall with 5 vills and sneak a vill himself in my base to make archers. when i showed my scouts he was fully walled already with 1 spear, but i managed to find a lucky all and he got devasteted while sneaking archers in my base as well. Wild but suspicious game as always.
Badboy is legit imo, he might had some problem in the past, but the way he plays seems very clean and legit for me, the level between him and mr bean is not even close, there is a pretty clear gap. i'm not his fan but i respect the way he plays, solid

 

[Chrazini]

Banning someone from events is not as easy and fun as it may seem and requires much information to make a call like that.
@DracKeN being shocked that the tournament organisers did not show any interest is fair. However, any respectable organiser does care; I presume most do not feel like chatting too much on the forums about it.

I remember reading about BadBoy back when it was initially discussed, and we did, in fact, look into the incident. However, denying someone entry to all future tournaments is a huge call to make and not one I am willing to take unless I am entirely convinced. There must be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and back then, I was not convinced.
This does not mean that it is closed, forgotten and ignored. There are records of these things - and while we did not take any immediate action then, there are more indirect solutions happening, such as recorded games or, in most cases, a reasonable spectator and stream delay.

Unfortunately, we do not have the same tools as we used to on Voobly to investigate issues thoroughly and bring back undisputable proof - this has made things exceptionally challenging for me and many others.
This would not have been exceptionally helpful in this case, but it is a general issue.

 

[oozkan]

....

Fair answer, so it is wait and see time for me while admins like Chrazini being extra cautious about suspicious players, such as asking for recordings. For a future note, I'd like to see more strict action, if it happens again with same player.

 

[DracKeN]

Banning someone from events is not as easy and fun as it may seem and requires much information to make a call like that.
@DracKeN being shocked that the tournament organisers did not show any interest is fair. However, any respectable organiser does care; I presume most do not feel like chatting too much on the forums about it.

I remember reading about BadBoy back when it was initially discussed, and we did, in fact, look into the incident. However, denying someone entry to all future tournaments is a huge call to make and not one I am willing to take unless I am entirely convinced. There must be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and back then, I was not convinced.
This does not mean that it is closed, forgotten and ignored. There are records of these things - and while we did not take any immediate action then, there are more indirect solutions happening, such as recorded games or, in most cases, a reasonable spectator and stream delay.

Unfortunately, we do not have the same tools as we used to on Voobly to investigate issues thoroughly and bring back undisputable proof - this has made things exceptionally challenging for me and many others.
This would not have been exceptionally helpful in this case, but it is a general issue.

@Chrazini
I understand regarding Badboy's case this isn't 100% proof. However, I don't see how you get better proof of streamsniping than this one (other than Mr. Bean's case obviously) and it felt like a very, very clear evidence. If that's not enough evidence, it's unlikely you'll punish anyone else, as you won't get better evidence. As I said, dangerous precedent. I might not agree with it, but I understand the PoV there.

However, I still fail to see why Mr. Bean wasn't punished. This literally was 100% proof of him streamcheating. And there was no punishment so far, he was able to play in KotD IV for example. I asked twice in S-tier events Q&A during signup period, if and why is Mr. Bean allowed to participate, but it was ignored both times. I specifically asked if I can use 15 min spec delay (or anyone else who met him in the qualifier), which was also not replied.

 

[Chrazini]

@Chrazini
I understand regarding Badboy's case this isn't 100% proof. However, I don't see how you get better proof of streamsniping than this one (other than Mr. Bean's case obviously) and it felt like a very, very clear evidence. If that's not enough evidence, it's unlikely you'll punish anyone else, as you won't get better evidence. As I said, dangerous precedent. I might not agree with it, but I understand the PoV there.

However, I still fail to see why Mr. Bean wasn't punished. This literally was 100% proof of him streamcheating. And there was no punishment so far, he was able to play in KotD IV for example. I asked twice in S-tier events Q&A during signup period, if and why is Mr. Bean allowed to participate, but it was ignored both times. I specifically asked if I can use 15 min spec delay (or anyone else who met him in the qualifier), which was also not replied.

If that is the case, that should definitely not happen, and your questions should not be left unanswered. It is not impossible that I have been doing a lousy job when it comes to answering various questions, and I will attempt to improve that in the future.
The least I can do is keep you informed regarding my events.

With regard to Mr. Bean, or any other player for that matter - if you have any suspicious games against anyone, do not hesitate to reach out.

 

[-R-]

I believe there's a significant amount of info on Mr. Bean's cheating here:

Mr.Bean is a stream sniper

Was just playing 1v1 against him and then many people came in my stream saying he was stream cheating me, one of my guys took the print screen where you can see my screen on his second monitor. Lets try to get rid of these shitty people. :) P.S.: He still lost :(

www.aoezone.net

 

[Influenza]

What kind of evidence is needed to convince others that someone is cheating? You can even see in the Mr. Bean thread that despite the definitive evidence that Mr. Bean had his opponents' streams visible to him on his second monitor as well as his primary monitor while playing/picking civs, some were still unconvinced. One of the arguments used was, to paraphrase: "There's no way he's cheating, there's too much evidence. How can he cheat openly like that?"

Just to clarify, anyone who has any serious doubt that BadBoy was cheating must believe:
1. It's normal to check bets more than 30 minutes into the game that is supposedly being betted on.
2. It's normal to select your scout, alt tab for a few seconds, then send your scout towards your opponents base.
3. It's normal to build a castle in a dangerous location, alt tab for a few seconds, then completely abandon protecting that spot.
4. It's normal to alt tab for a few seconds just before sending your army outside your base
5. It's normal to alt tab when playing vs streamers, but not alt tab when playing vs non-streamers.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

What kind of evidence is needed to convince others that someone is cheating? You can even see in the Mr. Bean thread that despite the definitive evidence that Mr. Bean had his opponents' streams visible to him on his second monitor as well as his primary monitor while playing/picking civs, some were still unconvinced. One of the arguments used was, to paraphrase: "There's no way he's cheating, there's too much evidence. How can he cheat openly like that?"

Just to clarify, anyone who has any serious doubt that BadBoy was cheating must believe:
1. It's normal to check bets more than 30 minutes into the game that is supposedly being betted on.
2. It's normal to select your scout, alt tab for a few seconds, then send your scout towards your opponents base.
3. It's normal to build a castle in a dangerous location, alt tab for a few seconds, then completely abandon protecting that spot.
4. It's normal to alt tab for a few seconds just before sending your army outside your base
5. It's normal to alt tab when playing vs streamers, but not alt tab when playing vs non-streamers.

Yeah I don't understand how the observed alt-tabbing behavior could not be considered indisputable proof.

 

[LowEloNobody]

I think this would be a bigger issue if the suspected and known cheaters were better at the game and got anywhere in tournaments. As far as I know, Mr. Bean has never made it past like Ro64? and Badboy hasn't made it out of the Ro16.
If we started to see them in the Ro8 etc, I think people would care.
That's not really a good reason to not talk more about allowing cheaters to compete, just how I see it.

 

[Hunyadi_]

If you stream your POV, you've only got yourself to blame lol

 

[-R-]

If you stream your POV, you've only got yourself to blame lol

This may come as a surprise to you, but for some people streaming is actually a source of income, and streaming tournaments is the high point of their channel. Don't tell anyone! It'll be our little secret.