Red Bull Wololo Announcement

Red Bull is excited to announce a new step forward in Age of Empires 2 esports, an event played entirely on the new mode Empire Wars. Check out an Empire Wars overview here

Featuring the top 8 players from Hidden Cup 3, TheViper, Hera, TaToH, dogao, Liereyy, DauT, Mr_Yo & MbL, and 8 more qualifiers, 4 from each of the two qualifying weekends, the Main Event will be an action-packed weekend of high-level innovative gameplay.
How will the pros adapt to this new game mode, what special tricks will they bring with them? Find out at https://www.twitch.tv/redbull for the Main Event. All of the qualifiers are open streaming so check them out at your local caster!

The Main Event stream will be casted by Nili_AoE, T90Official, & Dave with ZeroEmpires as the stream host.

Players interesting in playing in the qualifiers need to sign up at the Toornament pages (Qualifier 1, Qualifier 2) & join the Discord channel for easy communication with other players & Admins. Players will need to check-in during the hour before the tournament starts on Saturday to confirm their participation.

Timeframe​

Spoiler: Qualifiers

Qualifier 1: Saturday 18th - Sunday 19th April
Saturday:
Round 1 (256): Saturday 13:00GMT Bo1
Round 2 (128): Saturday 14:00GMT Bo1
Round 3 (64): Saturday 15:00GMT Bo3
Round 4 (32): Saturday 17:00GMT Bo5
Round 5 (16): Saturday 19:00GMT Bo5
Sunday: starting 13:00GMT
Round 6 Match 1 Bo7
Round 6 Match 2 Bo7
Round 6 Match 3 Bo7
Round 6 Match 4 Bo7
(Exact order of the games may vary to allow for player timezones)

Qualifier 2: Saturday 25th - Sunday 26th April
Saturday:
Round 1 (256): Saturday 13:00GMT Bo1
Round 2 (128): Saturday 14:00GMT Bo1
Round 3 (64): Saturday 15:00GMT Bo3
Round 4 (32): Saturday 17:00GMT Bo5
Round 5 (16): Saturday 19:00GMT Bo5
Sunday: starting 13:00GMT
Round 6 Match 1 Bo7
Round 6 Match 2 Bo7
Round 6 Match 3 Bo7
Round 6 Match 4 Bo7
(Exact order of the games may vary to allow for player timezones)

Main Event:
Thursday 30th April 13:00GMT: Round of 16
Friday 01st May 13:00GMT: Round of 16
Saturday 02nd May 13:00GMT: Quarterfinals
Sunday 03rd May 13:00GMT: Semifinals & Grand Final

Prizepool €20,000​

Sponsored by Red Bull.

See the Rules & Settings for total breakdown.

 

lmao, Nicov got cucked again

 

Awesome that next great event is happening, I'm looking forward to it but personally I'm probably bigger fan of bracket based on some independet seeding then just randomly matching invited players with qualified players, it may not matter to many viewers but it may feel a bit unfair to players, meaning why would the fact that someone did well in hc3 resulted directly in that player getting easier pairing in this event?

 

I mean if you want to win a major tournament you’re going to have to beat some of the best players at some point. Nicov may be #1 in the ladder, but it doesn’t count for much in deciding who’s a better player.

Only 3 or 4 players actually play to win the tournaments, others have semis as goal, others quarters. Same as tennis. I should never be facing top 5 players in round 1 in every tournament given my seed (#2 in this case, I guess im #15!)

I'll only show up because otherwise I will be penalized by losing 500 euros which mean not only losing the money but also having wasted an entire weekend playing the qualifiers. Enough said, these random brackets can go to hell.

And I would really appreciate it if people stopped talking about my bracket and instead focused on the good tournament that is about to begin.

Cheers.

 

So basicly we are saying that villese (that get in on quali 2) laaaaaaan, slam (maybe, sure, but tournament results never showed that), accm, vinchester, and themax (yes for me, but also got in on quali 2, and loosing on quali 1) are all ahead of nicov?.

And I have to be honest, nicov is not my favourite player to watch on 1v1 becausehe is not the kind of really try hard and that is what I like, but cmon man, what is this bracket saying?. this is unfair in any given day. This is 100% not fair, nicov has shown that he is ahead AT LEAST on seeding to 90% of the players that have been seeded before him (because we all supose that hera is seeded 2 right?).

Honestly I cant find an argument for this one. how come is nicov seeded 15? how?.

I am even banned on his stream for calling him a "pecho frio", xD, but gogogo nicov, queen esta te estan garcando de lo lindo. ahi va mi energy.

 

So basicly we are saying that villese (that get in on quali 2) laaaaaaan, slam (maybe, sure, but tournament results never showed that), accm, vinchester, and themax (yes for me, but also got in on quali 2, and loosing on quali 1) are all ahead of nicov?.

And I have to be honest, nicov is not my favourite player to watch on 1v1 becausehe is not the kind of really try hard and that is what I like, but cmon man, what is this bracket saying?. this is unfair in any given day. This is 100% not fair, nicov has shown that he is ahead AT LEAST on seeding to 90% of the players that have been seeded before him (because we all supose that hera is seeded 2 right?).

Honestly I cant find an argument for this one. how come is nicov seeded 15? how?

It's invited players vs qualified players so if not hera then nicov would have played either:

TheViper.

DauT ,

MbL,

TaToH ,

Liereyy,

dogao or

Mr_Yo

doesn't look much easier opponents, does it? Nicov cannot complain that he didn't get dogao as opponent. All other players could win nicov with their previous performance. (assuming dogao won't have his hidden cup performance)

 

Yeah that is total bs. Arguably, Nicov did not make the invited list because of random seeding, and now gets another bs random seed v Hera.....comon....

This should definitely not be randomized and changed to protect any integrity this tournament may have.

Btw I think don't think Nicov needs the change in brackets, he is one of the top players in the world and definitely capable of beating someone as good Hera

 

Why exactly can players not complain about random seeding? Especially when the previous tournament performance (which also had random seeding) meant some players had a much easier bracket to obtain "invited" status, and thus an automatic chance to not play viper, tatoh, hera, etc in first round. Swap his bracket from HC with someone who didn't play a top 5 player, and suddenly Nicov would have had a much higher likelihood of being an invited player in this event.

A player that is considered top 10, or even top 12 has every right about being upset to be seeded vs the 2nd player in the tournament in round 1. Especially given a loss in the first round if this tournament will affect the seeding of future tournaments, so on and so forth. The only way for a player on the cusp of top 8 to keep status in the top 8 seems to be either 1. a huge upset over a top 3 player. or 2. luck in the brackets and not having to face a top 3/5 player in round 1.

 

rather scratch out my eyeballs than read any of this seeding nonsense

 

This is just another example for confirmation bias.

Inviting the top8 of HC3 into the tournament whilst all other need to go through the qualifiers to prove themselves is totally fine. But now creating the brackets in addition on the hc3 results creates a totally biased system and can end in an inevitable circle for some players.

Max will probably lose against tatoh so if a tournament with the same settings follows, he must again go through the qualies and will again face a top player in first round. And so on. And since a Max facing a Tatoh would get same money as a dogao facing Laaaan, Max's chances for his prize pool share is not similiar to those of Laaaan or dogao, who are considered to be worse. So he is captured in a circle of getting smashed in first round of a SE tournament and only getting some pocket money for qualification not because of his current performances, but only because he had a bad day in HC3. He can only proof himself and evades that circle by beating a top 5 player, while other players reach next round with more ease.

We should start somewhat with a blank page or at least if we make any system to seed the players to not having totally random matchups with premature finals, we count in more results and measures than one single gimmick tournament.

This is an even worse system than having a SE tournament where your prize pool share is solely based on own deep you have made it, but not if you have lost 3-0 or 3-2 or if you have almost beaten Viper or seed 16.

If we make a system for our tournament, we need to adress at least some thoughts towards the mid-term consequences of the pro-scene. And if the RBW settings should be copied we created systematical injustice just because of overrating results of one tournament that was also not created to find the best players. Especially if we consider, that RBW is promoted to be the prototype for future similiar externally sponsored Esport events.

There are reason why we usually have some decent seeding and not only go for something like only hard facts are taken from last tournament result for a coarse two class-system and rest is random.

I mean even from a pure entertainment standpoint is a potential hera-viper semifinal not to be prefered, if you want to have some decent viewer numbers for Red Bull to achieve their goals and other sponsors to be attracted by the success of the event. At least at that regard the "random" seeding of HC3 fulfilled that purpose.

 

So ... How about double elimination for the Main Event this time? We had two qualifier weekends that served as double elimination for the qualification stage, so it makes sense to have double elimination for the main event too, so that victims of the random bracket will have a second chance to prove themselves.

 

Using aoe-elo.com

1. TheViper
2. Hera
3. Yo
4. TaToH
5. Liereyy
6. MbL
7. DauT
8. Nicov
9. F1Re
10. Villese
11. TheMax
12. dogao
13. LaaaaaN
14. Vinchester
15. ACCM
16. slam

from the current 1v1 ladder:

1. nicov
2. viper
3. mbl
4. ACCM
5. dogao
6. DauT
7. TaToH
8. Villese
9. Hera
10. F1Re
11. TheMax
12. Yo
13. Vinchester
14. LaaaaaN
15. slam
16. Liereyy

Clearly the 1v1 ladder isn't the most accurate with respect to tournament performance. aoe-elo.com seems to get pretty close. Everyone has TheViper as number one and some order of Hera, Yo, and TaToH next. In fact, seven of the eight invited players are on the top of aoe-elo (Nicov being the exception). That does bode well for your decision to invite these players.

However, the only reason Hidden Cup seedings were randomized was because the audience wasn't supposed to know who they were. Other tournaments, ESPECIALLY single-elimination events, should be seeded in some way. For longer tournaments, you can take seeding directly from qualifier/group stage performance. For short tournaments like this, you should have some form of seeding even if just to help ensure a final day with the "best" players facing one another, but as noted in this thread, this also helps reward players that have "earned" their seed with the chance for higher payouts rather than unlucky early draws.

I feel bad for some of these players, and obviously sad we won't get an opportunity for the DauT/Viper finals we all expected.

 

12. Dogao

lol

 

but aoe-elo.com neglects the prize pool / popularity / # of players / settings of the tourney
imo we need an ATP-ish system, who running it is another issue tho

 

Eh, Nicov having to face Top5 player in r1 again.

As is tradition.

 

Random seeding sucks for everyone, and its only compounded by having an event where half of players are invited from being top 8 in another randomly seeded event. The invite system made no sense to begin with, this is just compounding it.

For the same reason though, you can't really use the tourney elo site because if prior tourneys are randomly seeded I'm guessing it still doesn't give much credit to someone who loses a tough match in R1.

What this pro scene has needed for a long time is a scrim system that people will actually 'tryhard' for and agree that given the right amount of time and sample size will be used to seed events and tournaments. How exactly that looks I'm sure is not an easy solution but in my opinion it is really needed. Most E-Sports have some official scrimmage and/or ranking system and this community should band together and agree on something.

Until then the most fair thing I can think of would be a blind average system where the players seed themselves. I believe that has been used before and there were minimal complaints.

 

no disrespecc to the bottom bracket but holy cow the top bracket is stacked.

 

We don't even need any elo to figure out proper seeding this time we have a top 8 already qualified they play against 8 people that qualified over 2 play in tournaments. The first one was obviously harder to win because the 4 best player don't play in the second one, so the easy solution is...

Winners of the first qualifier play against 5-8 from HC3 winner of the second play against 1-4. form there you can use Elo, randomisers, past tournament result or any other method to make a bracket within these limitations.

Many here have talked about how this sucks for Nicov but Hera is also getting a harder opponent for no reason.

 

Random seeding sucks for everyone, and its only compounded by having an event where half of players are invited from being top 8 in another randomly seeded event. The invite system made no sense to begin with, this is just compounding it.

For the same reason though, you can't really use the tourney elo site because if prior tourneys are randomly seeded I'm guessing it still doesn't give much credit to someone who loses a tough match in R1.

What this pro scene has needed for a long time is a scrim system that people will actually 'tryhard' for and agree that given the right amount of time and sample size will be used to seed events and tournaments. How exactly that looks I'm sure is not an easy solution but in my opinion it is really needed. Most E-Sports have some official scrimmage and/or ranking system and this community should band together and agree on something.

Until then the most fair thing I can think of would be a blind average system where the players seed themselves. I believe that has been used before and there were minimal complaints.

The tourney elo site isn't necessarily the "best" since players like RiuT are still highly ranked for performance that might have happened years ago, and that doesn't reflect the players' current strength. You might also argue players like LaaaaaN don't have enough tournament experience/matches to have as accurate a rating, maybe.

However, the seedings in those prior tournaments don't matter. That's the point of the web site. It treats tournament games/matches as the "official tryhard scrim system" that you're proposing and just calculates elo as if those were ranked matches.

If TheViper plays against me in round 1 (drawing an easy match) while Nicov plays Hera, Viper ain't gaining any points for his victory and a loss would be catastrophic, whereas Nicov will gain more points for a win and lose fewer points for a loss.

 

3rd drama in the same post I think, is there a record to break?

 

random seeding and next time we wil invite the top8 players out of a random seeded tournement. Makes absolut no sense... brackets need to change, its a 20k tournement, seriously.

 

Everybody speaking about Nicov, but not about TheViper who also has a tough bracket and he is going to fall out in the second round vs our Lord and Saviour.

 

its not about winning, its about some players having a much easier path into a top 8 performance than others. And the fact that past top 8 performance is being used to justify future event seeding. These "random" brackets have been poisoning the seeding for future events for a while now, by giving some of the 4th-12th rank players an easier path to reaching a quarterfinal vs others, which is in turn used to seed future events and or determine whether individuals are invited or forced to qualify. For players on the cusp of top 8, who you play on round 1 can make or break you. And if you are constantly randomly seeded vs top 5 players in round 1 while others play 2nd tier players it really is difficult to overcome.

Which players have been favored with these "random" brackets?

 

11 why random I don't get it

Anyway this is going to be great tournament. But I can't avoid nico thing... as an argentinian I feel a bit of unlucky and disappoint with the bracket. And I know I'm talking again of him but I can't avoid it nico, sry.

Good luck all

 

11 @Nicov we can switch if you want xD

 

What a generous offer!

11 @Nicov we can switch if you want xD