Ratha redesign Idea

[Faultier321]

NAC4 is going on and we are seeing a ton of Bengalis, but not a single Ratha.

I think the Ratha is not the best Unit in design and the switching between melee and ranged mode is more annoying then anything, you basically need an extra hotkey just for this single Unit.

I am usually a conservative guy when it comes to AoE2, usually flaming against many changes and new mechanics. However, this came to my mind and I thought it is a least better then what we have now, maybe even pretty nice:

-Remove the melee attack mode for ratha
- give them a reloading shield, like the shrivamsha (*plz dont stop reading here*), but it only lasts one melee attack and takes a bit of time to recharge; the ratha still takes damage from this one hit, but but deals 50% of the damage or so back to the attacking Unit. I think its a nice Bonus for the Unit to have, but nothing OP/annoying as the shawarma rider.
It would be easy to balance by the recharge rate or, if hit&run becomes to strong, nerf the ratha speed, if a nerf is needed.

what do you think?

 

[kalpit00]

Fix Ratha?
- Remove archer armor class so they dont die to skirms like flies (irrespective of whether they are melee or ranged mode)
- Lighten the base stats of their melee mode so they become more like a lancer than a knight in terms of fighting vs other melee units
- Care for their Elite stats, since Parthian Tactics gives them a lot of pierce armor, it is important for them to be not as dominant vs other heavy cavalry (hence the base stat nerf of their melee mode, little less attack, little less melee armor)

All this and they will become a unit which does not simply die to Skirms, and melee mode will become viable because they will still die to Halb line and Camels, and perform much worse vs Knights or other heavy cavalry options. I would imagine them to become more like a Wood-Gold costing Lancer, minus the speed, stacking and raiding ability, so they can still be used in some scenarios vs Trash units. (Melee Mode vs full skirms, Ranged Mode vs full Halbs kinda, Both modes viable vs Champs or infantry line but still dies to Cav counter units and performs worser vs kts/heavy cavalry)

EDIT : maybe the archer armor removal class would mean even Skirms can't kill them in ranged mode despite the fact they still have Cavalry Archer class so will take some bonus damage, but in that case I feel like nerfing their base stats would make them more like Mamelukes (mamelukes don't take damage from Skirms now). Considering ratha's would perform significantly worse in melee engagements, knights can scare them and of course there's Camels as the counter

 

[Crawsack]

I think it's a problem that they're so dominated by skirms, I think skirms should be more of a soft counter to them, so possibly increase their cav archer armor or reduce the bonus damage they receive. I'd also consider adding +1 attack to their ranged attack, 5+4 isn't that impressive for an expensive unit like that. Plumes do fine with 5+4 because they're dirt cheap and you can mass a ton of them.

 

[vesnoimorskoi]

At least Bengalis are being played, unlike Celts, Koreans, Slavs, Goths, Incas, Bulgarians, Spanish, and even Huns (why they are not being picked btw?)

 

[archxeon]

Removing melee mode is a big no-no from me. Don't make game less interesting to improve balance.

 

[uberkerl]

i think removing the CA armor type ratha(!) then the Archer armor could be a first step. takes just 2 bonus damage away from skirms and not 4. I think that unit is allowed to be good.

 

[Semisky]

My suggestion:
Add a weak dismounted version(to meatshield some skirmish fire) after death like konik, everything else stays the same

 

[Beanslinger]

How about when the Ratha dies, it spawns a Teutonic knight, and when the Teutonic Knight dies it spawns a Karambit Warrior?

 

[hellhammer]

Reason why we aren't seeing Rathas that often is because Bengali Elite Elephant Archers are already close to be broken so why you go for a weaker unit that's hard to use and has lower damage output when the benagle ele archers are sooo strong in Imperial when you have the mass (which just scary as Bohemians Halb+Houfnice).

 

[RobChang]

NAC4 is going on and we are seeing a ton of Bengalis, but not a single Ratha.

I think the Ratha is not the best Unit in design and the switching between melee and ranged mode is more annoying then anything, you basically need an extra hotkey just for this single Unit.

I am usually a conservative guy when it comes to AoE2, usually flaming against many changes and new mechanics. However, this came to my mind and I thought it is a least better then what we have now, maybe even pretty nice:

-Remove the melee attack mode for ratha
- give them a reloading shield, like the shrivamsha (*plz dont stop reading here*), but it only lasts one melee attack and takes a bit of time to recharge; the ratha still takes damage from this one hit, but but deals 50% of the damage or so back to the attacking Unit. I think its a nice Bonus for the Unit to have, but nothing OP/annoying as the shawarma rider.
It would be easy to balance by the recharge rate or, if hit&run becomes to strong, nerf the ratha speed, if a nerf is needed.

what do you think?

Its the change svr need to get, i.e. only blocking first attack

 

[Biz]

it should be redesigned or become a campaign-only unit

the game is too fast-paced for a unit where you have to toggle modes. if i wanted to play a moba, i'd just play a moba instead of playing aoe2

i already have to fight 2 or 3 people most of the time because every other game is on socotra nomad, and i really do not have the time to toggle gimmick units between their gimmick stances

maybe the 1v1 micro players can just build farmville behind their walls, never get raided, and spend all their energy playing moba with their army, but my games are way too busy for this ratha stuff

 

[Tiekel]

The problem is that raths are knight and CA in one but excel in neither. The simple solution of course would be to buff their attack and increase their weakness according to the melee or range form. Range kills melee (+ range atk, - CA armor) while melee kills range (+ pierce armor and no/+99 CA armor class, -melee armor -CAV armor). To balance increased weakness against spear also + bonus atk against siege. To balance morphing abuse implement a conversion stage with slower movement and frozen attack. Easy balance

 

[kalpit00]

The problem is that raths are knight and CA in one but excel in neither. The simple solution of course would be to buff their attack and increase their weakness according to the melee or range form. Range kills melee (+ range atk, - CA armor) while melee kills range (+ pierce armor and no/+99 CA armor class, -melee armor -CAV armor). To balance increased weakness against spear also + bonus atk against siege. To balance morphing abuse implement a conversion stage with slower movement and frozen attack. Easy balance

I am lost bro, can you try to list the changes for melee and ranged modes separately?

Like you said, Ratha is a KT + CA combined unit, so ideally we would want it to perform as good as a knight/cavalier in melee mode and as good as a CA/HCA in ranged mode (the fact their speed is slower compared to kts makes up for the fact they cost wood instead of food otherwise would be too strong to mass)

What changes can you make though while not breaking the design?

As it stands, Rathas straight up die to Skirms in both melee and ranged modes due to the CA + archer armor class. So first thing we need to fix is that if in Melee mode, they don't take ridiculous amounts of damage to skirms (Vs Halbs its fine, its how its supposed to be, halbs kill kts, but skirms should not kill kts).

Secondly, we need to make sure it doesn't overperform than a kt would in melee v melee battle AND doesn't overperform than a CA would in ranged v ranged battle

Thirdly, while buffing/nerfing their stats, also need to keep in mind the melee-ranged balance (that is if melee mode, it doesn't run over ranged units like a huskarl on horse, or if in ranged mode, it doesn't melt melee units like genbows on horse)

 

[shm0wt]

Honestly I think the main issue for Ratha is that it's attached to a garbage civ. It's not a great unique unit, of course, but if Bengalis had literally any unit they could make against skirms it'd be alright. As it is their own skirms lack thumb ring and their champs lack plate mail and supplies. I guess they get FU light cav?

 

[shm0wt]

Like, lots of units are countered by skirms and are still good. Conqs, mangudai, camel archers, plumed archers, arbalest... I don't think skirms are the whole issue here. The problem is that Bengalis need a better overall tech tree. Normally making a unit that forces your opponent into a lot of skirm is kind of a good thing...

 

[kalpit00]

Well I mean Bengali's tech options have been limited from day one for the sole reason that their economy bonuses are so good right.

Some buff tech options for bengalis to deal with Skirms more easily

1) Hussars : I have been vouching to give Bengalis Hussars since day one, as a counter to Skirms. The argument there is that with Mahayana, Bengalis late game can field like 210-215 pop (100-150 vils) where those extra vils can go on Food (potentially 100 farmers) and "outspam" hussars. Tbh, I never was a fan of this argument because there are many other civs who can outspam this, namely Poles and their winged hussars with folwark farming, or Khmer/Slavs with their faster farms.

2) +4 on infantry : as it stands, lacking plate mail means the bengalis Halbs and even Champs will die significantly faster to Skirms. There is no argument here really, lots of civs with comparatively good economies get FU halbs/champs, so I don't know why Devs are like " Bengalis, you are the chosen one, we will NOT give you any good FU options". Only 8 out of the 42 civs don't get plate mail armor (Goths, Huns, Magyars, Khmer, Lithuanians, Tatars, Hindustanis and Bengalis), and all of these civs have a very powerful imperial tech tree, except for poor Bengalis who literally have no options 11

3) No Thumb Ring on Arbalests : Ok Devs, dont give them Hussars, dont give them +4 infantry, dont give them even knights, dont give them a good UU as well, dont give them bbcs, but atleast give them Thumb Ring so they can compete ranged vs ranged??? I don't know which Dev designed the Bengali Tech Tree, but seriously seems like they were high on that good ****... Like bro not a single FU option 11

But but its all good, the civ is viable on Water and Arena. (Not really, they suck suck on Arena due to lack of bbcs, monks alone won't cut it, and on water, this civ is nothing special, except for Ships regenerating HP -> they only shined because players played them correctly with the superior boom on their own island, meaning they are only viable on Islands/Northern Isles, any hybrid map they will die to land aggression)

 

[shm0wt]

I don't even think the Bengali's bonus is as cracked as people think. It's a good bonus, for sure, but the way the civ is designed it's as if the devs think they are going to have an insane economy lead in every game and need to be nerfed back into line to compensate. Yes 4 free vils by the start of Castle Age is nice, but like, Vikings basically get 3 three vils at the start of feudal. Chinese get three extra vils *at the start of the game*, admittedly with the tougher start to compensate, but still. They could stand to be thrown a bone.