Rage Forest 3 - Discussion

[kw1k000000]

On another note, this goes to show the flaws of single elimination: team slam got eliminated first round, taking the last place, but they very well could've been in the final; same for tatoh after the loss yesterday; there is a reason(let's be real: many good reasons) why much much more established tournaments with millions of dollars in prize pools prefer double elimination.

CSGO majors are single elim
Football worldcup is single elim
Tennis tournaments are single elim

Single elim has it's charm and thrill, every match is knockout.

Double elim although more robust but it feels like dragging on

 

[kw1k000000]

Not sure about that.
Can't remember any outrage/hate in previous similar situations.

Of course the admins could also decide that Fedex get's a random civ (out of all those he is allowed to use) but is that really a better rule since it leaves no space for goodwill? I don't know, but atleast it would be a clear rule and everyone would know exactly what they have to expect if they make a mistake.
(With that I don't mean that the current rule is unclear, but it leaves space for goodwill, which this rule wouldn't.)

Rules are rules. If a player picked Chinese then it's on him. An own goal even if scored accidentally still counts against you.

 

[kw1k000000]

Sportsmanship:
Fair play, respect for opponents, and gracious behavior in winning or losing.

People have different interpretations of it, which part they focus on etc. What's complete nonsense is you failing to see it.
Like I said, if someone disagrees with my take on it, I understand cause people have different understanding of what it means,




So, giving the opponent the worst civ in free pick (i.e when you have the best possible team you can make), for a obvious misclick (hope nobody is arguing here that Tatoh team did it on purpose) is respect. And doing any less is lack of respect.
You call my take bizarre, and then pull up this mental gymnastics lmao


IMO DQ would be perfect here.
No drama and be done with it. Don't put the opponents in a position to choose

There is no drama, it's a simple case of following the rules.

Tell me what happens when a player scores an own goal in football?

 

[Snizl]

There is no drama, it's a simple case of following the rules.

Correct me if I'm wrong with my assumption but I think the only drama here exists, because AoE tournaments nowadays are reasonably good in defining the rules, but it is rarely specified, what the result of a rule break actually is and tournament coordinators should take a lesson from this and better define them for the future.

 

[MuscleChamp]

I think this shows very well how decisions about actions for rule breaking never should be up to the other player/team. If they actually want the rules enforced they get hate for it. So rules become meaningless since the opponent has to be lenient.

That's something I really appreciate about Nili, he as an admin will call the shots, even if it means giving Daut an admin loss. Just imagine the hate one would get as a player when saying "nah, I take an AW because Daut is late, I'm not rescheduling".

this is the best answer in this thread and 100% correct.

I would like to add that the 'opponent picks your civ' rule probably is not intendet to give the choice wheather to punish or not punish your opponent who made a mistake but to allow you to pick what you think is the worst civ for them.

Of course I dont know that for sure, but imo this is the only reasonable explanation. Allowing the option for mercy is just bad rule design.

 

[LowEloNobody]

Correct me if I'm wrong with my assumption but I think the only drama here exists, because AoE tournaments nowadays are reasonably good in defining the rules, but it is rarely specified, what the result of a rule break actually is and tournament coordinators should take a lesson from this and better define them for the future.

How is it not well-defined? It is explicitly listed in the rules.

The rules were followed to the letter.

 

[Snizl]

How is it not well-defined? It is explicitly listed in the rules.
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The rules were followed to the letter.

thanks for pointing that out. In that case you are of course completely correct and I do not understand why anyone could possibly find any issue with the matter at hand...

 

[EricDolphy]

How is it not well-defined? It is explicitly listed in the rules.
View attachment 200166


The rules were followed to the letter.

I don't wanna drag this discussion, but it looks like I failed to make my point in my previous post. What I was trying to say is that regardless of what the rules say someone needs to make a decision as to how they apply to the situation in hand. That's why you have Judges, Lawyers and in this case Admins. For example, I don't see the rule you quoted as being clear about what happened. It clearly says -if the player picks a civs that's not from their draft pool or "Random civ"- and that's not what happened. There wasn't a draft for the game in question and Random civ wasn't selected. So if blindingly applying the rules as suggested here was to be fair, the rule should say "If the player confuses his/her civ with an incorrect one", but that's not the case.

 

[TheCapybara]

I don't wanna drag this discussion, but it looks like I failed to make my point in my previous post. What I was trying to say is that regardless of what the rules say someone needs to make a decision as to how they apply to the situation in hand. That's why you have Judges, Lawyers and in this case Admins. For example, I don't see the rule you quoted as being clear about what happened. It clearly says -if the player picks a civs that's not from their draft pool or "Random civ"- and that's not what happened. There wasn't a draft for the game in question and Random civ wasn't selected. So if blindingly applying the rules as suggested here was to be fair, the rule should say "If the player confuses his/her civ with an incorrect one", but that's not the case.

I would argue it is perfectly clear. The draft pool for the final game in the series is every civ in the game. The rules also make clear that repeating civs is not permitted in this final game:

I don't think there can really be any doubt about the clarity of the rules. The issue is more about whether the rule is appropriate (both in severity of punishment for an accidental transgression and for the moral debate it has stirred about how teams enforce the rule).

 

[Lightysword]

That game 3 of the third place match was the game of the tournament for me so far. I mean can it get any closer?

 

[Lightysword]

Thank you very much @Villiams and @MembTV for organizing this tournament. It was great fun to watch and overall provided really exciting games!
A bit sad the grand final was a little underwhelming, but nothing can be done about that. The third place match made up for it a bit though.
Congrats to Team Barles.

 

[cort]

Well to be honest we were kinda shocked they chose chinese, it was an obvious misclick of fedex and of course meant to be bohemians (he also played them all of our games before). And obviously this had a huge impact on the game, because everyone who has a little knowledge about the game knows we have nearly zero chance to win in post imp. Basically they only had to wall much and hold the first push. Thats why we played yolo strats like brit 1tc imp, sling and celt sneak. From capture age it is always easy to know when to attack where, but it wasnt as part of this chaos game at least for us.

Of course its our fault. There was like a 10min break before the game, we all were doing some stuff after 3-4h of playing and we discussed about mongols a lot, so it was just a unlucky missclick and a misscommunication before the start.

I wouldnt even have considered to pik a bad civ for them and so did tatoh, so please stop the argument "but they would have done the same".

For me this is (was) a fun tournament in a small community where everyone knows and respects each other. And the rule is followed in both cases, so yes giving chinese instead of bohemians is bad sportsmanship for me. If it wasnt a teamgame i would have left and give free win for sure.

But honestly I'd rather be in the team that loses with chinese than in the one that gives chinese to the opponent and wins, so i guess we are all happy and can move on.

you could have easily win that game with chinese :/ but it is always easier to say if you see everything on the map.

great tournament with sick semi finals! thx for hosting and casting!