Rage Forest 3 - Discussion

[Villiams]

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Discussion / Q&A / Feedback​

Please use this thread to discuss the tournament, post any questions or concerns you may have and also to provide us feedback on aspects that can be improved.

As the tournament organizers, we will listen to and consider every single piece of feedback that is presented, no matter how big or small and we're always open to suggestions to making it bigger and better than ever.

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[Chatusilis_III]

Hello. Thank you for a great tournament, some series were incredible to watch! But when I saw Jordan´s team getting wrecked, I was wandering, where was Capoch? I think he was the only tier 2 player that didn´t play in the RO16, right?

 

[hereicome]

Hello. Thank you for a great tournament, some series were incredible to watch! But when I saw Jordan´s team getting wrecked, I was wandering, where was Capoch? I think he was the only tier 2 player that didn´t play in the RO16, right?

Capoch didn't participate due to personal reasons.

 

[robo]

Capoch has recently had a baby and isn't actively playing at the moment.
Alive also didn't play (in Modri's Team).

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

What's up with that EdgarDavids hype in MEmb's channel xD I'm watching VOD now and don't understand it

 

[Proctologist]

What's up with that EdgarDavids hype in MEmb's channel xD I'm watching VOD now and don't understand it

Because of a biblical quote:

''When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Edgar Davids' coming is imminent.''

People, me including, think this is the time.

 

[ramzes2000]

why and who make alive in tournament as tier 2 if he is 0 expierenced player. Modri with better tier 2 player could win whole tournament so easy.

Valas vs Barles will be so exciting, one of them will win tournament

 

[akku]

Sad game 5 to an amazing semi finals.

Honestly think a straight up admin win was preferable here. Less drama, and less painful than playing with the worst civ in free pick.

 

[Tommutjah]

Honestly think a straight up admin win was preferable here. Less drama, and less painful than playing with the worst civ in free pick.

I think there would be more drama if they gave team Villese an AW. Like someone in the chat of Memb suggested, I think a better solution is to give team Tatoh a choice out of 5 civs, or ban 5 civs that team Tatoh cannot choose. Or just let team Tatoh pick the civ they wanted in the first place and have the trust that they are honest about this.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Rules are rules, Federicov/Tatoh should have paid more attention.

 

[Lokalo]

I still think they were in a good position last game, but player with chinese didn't do any troops to finish off bohemians, nor they used slinged resources properly. I think at first he was slinging tatoh, then skittle with celts, but celts had tons of resources and 0 troops, it kind of felt wasn't ready for being slinged. I mean situation is far from perfect for sure, but in my opinion they did nice job at castle age and then follow up just was terrible.

 

[Dusk2Dawn]

On another note, this goes to show the flaws of single elimination: team slam got eliminated first round, taking the last place, but they very well could've been in the final; same for tatoh after the loss yesterday; there is a reason(let's be real: many good reasons) why much much more established tournaments with millions of dollars in prize pools prefer double elimination.

 

[akku]

I think there would be more drama if they gave team Villese an AW. Like someone in the chat of Memb suggested, I think a better solution is to give team Tatoh a choice out of 5 civs, or ban 5 civs that team Tatoh cannot choose. Or just let team Tatoh pick the civ they wanted in the first place and have the trust that they are honest about this.

I think straight up DQ would've been preferable to giving them one of the worst civs in a free pick (i.e when you play with your best civs), would save us some time and some drama.
I disagree that it would've resulted in more drama. People would've been angry at first, then see this was the rule and moved on.
What happened here, IMO, just reflects poorly on Villese team for poor sportsmanship. If you think otherwise, it's fine.

I suppose a choice between 5 civs would've been better.
In this scenario, pretty obvious that they were going for Bohemians and misclicked.

I still think they were in a good position last game, but player with chinese didn't do any troops to finish off bohemians, nor they used slinged resources properly. I think at first he was slinging tatoh, then skittle with celts, but celts had tons of resources and 0 troops, it kind of felt wasn't ready for being slinged. I mean situation is far from perfect for sure, but in my opinion they did nice job at castle age and then follow up just was terrible.

Do you think Tatoh team would've gone for this wack sling strategy, if they got Bohemians as intended? Of course not.

You could argue they should've improvised in game, which is fair, but having something like this happen to you in the final game.......most people would be rattled and not think straight.
Mentally, the match was over. Which is why I think the match should've been a straight DQ, at least spare them of the pain.

 

[TheCapybara]

What happened here, IMO, just reflects poorly on Villese team for poor sportsmanship. If you think otherwise, it's fine.

This is just a bizarre take, and this conceptualisation of 'sportsmanship' is complete nonsense. Sportsmanship means showing respect for your opponents, being courteous. It doesn't mean not playing to give yourself the best chances of winning (to be honest, doing any less would be to show a lack of respect). TaToH's team made a (very sloppy) mistake, there are consequences for that. A DQ would be extreme, this way at least gives them the opportunity to make something happen and overcome their error.

 

[akku]

This is just a bizarre take, and this conceptualisation of 'sportsmanship' is complete nonsense. Sportsmanship means showing respect for your opponents, being courteous

Sportsmanship:
Fair play, respect for opponents, and gracious behavior in winning or losing.

People have different interpretations of it, which part they focus on etc. What's complete nonsense is you failing to see it.
Like I said, if someone disagrees with my take on it, I understand cause people have different understanding of what it means,

It doesn't mean not playing to give yourself the best chances of winning (to be honest, doing any less would be to show a lack of respect).

So, giving the opponent the worst civ in free pick (i.e when you have the best possible team you can make), for a obvious misclick (hope nobody is arguing here that Tatoh team did it on purpose) is respect. And doing any less is lack of respect.
You call my take bizarre, and then pull up this mental gymnastics lmao

A DQ would be extreme, this way at least gives them the opportunity to make something happen and overcome their error.

IMO DQ would be perfect here.
No drama and be done with it. Don't put the opponents in a position to choose

 

[paradox303]

IMO DQ would be perfect here.
No drama and be done with it. Don't put the opponents in a position to choose

How we know you're trolling!

 

[akku]

How we know you're trolling!

Not trolling.
A rule based DQ (or whatever) directly from admin = less drama.

Honestly I wouldn't want to be in a position to choose as the opponent, if to let a rule based mistake slide or use it to my complete advantage.

Not sure why this would be a troll opinion.

 

[paradox303]

Not trolling.
A rule based DQ (or whatever) directly from admin = less drama.

Honestly I wouldn't want to be in a position to choose as the opponent, if to let a rule based mistake slide or use it to my complete advantage.

Not sure why this would be a troll opinion.

So in your words an admin DQ is a better option than what happened yesterday for an 'obvious misclick.'

I find absolutely bizarre that you arrived at that.

The rule in place is the standard rule across tournaments for when situations like this arise. It is the player's responsibility to ensure they have the right civ picked, no one else.

In nearly every and any other case another player/team would have done the same thing.

 

[TheCapybara]

Sportsmanship:
Fair play, respect for opponents, and gracious behavior in winning or losing.

People have different interpretations of it, which part they focus on etc. What's complete nonsense is you failing to see it.
Like I said, if someone disagrees with my take on it, I understand cause people have different understanding of what it means,

Team Villese's behaviour fits in perfectly with the definition you've just posted. What I fail to see is why people perform these dramatic mental leaps where they expect people not to claim the competitive advantage in a multi-thousand dollar tournament when the other team makes a sloppy error. If this had happened the other way round, would you really expect Team TaToH not to do the same? Of course they would, because it's the sensible, competitive action to take.

So, giving the opponent the worst civ in free pick (i.e when you have the best possible team you can make), for a obvious misclick (hope nobody is arguing here that Tatoh team did it on purpose) is respect. And doing any less is lack of respect.
You call my take bizarre, and then pull up this mental gymnastics lmao

How is this mental gymnastics? Opposing team breaks the rules, therefore must accept the consequences. It's happened many times before, it will doubtless continue to happen, usually as a result of sloppiness (e.g. misclicks or poor communication within a team). The rules are also important to deter potential malicious use (and, no, I'm not in the slightest suggesting TaToH or his team would do this intentionally).

Not trolling.
A rule based DQ (or whatever) directly from admin = less drama.

Honestly I wouldn't want to be in a position to choose as the opponent, if to let a rule based mistake slide or use it to my complete advantage.

Not sure why this would be a troll opinion.

How would this result in less drama? You're suggesting the ultimate punishment for what you described yourself as 'an obvious misclick', which would also be ten times more anti-climactic for viewers. The current system is fine, and calling Team Villese unsporting for acting within the rules as they did is pretty rude and insulting.

 

[amazing_knight]

IMO DQ would be perfect here.
No drama and be done with it. Don't put the opponents in a position to choose

I am 100% sure there would be more drama if they got an Admin loss over it.

Not sure if you saw the interview after the games - both teams felt that Tatoh's team could still have won the game had they taken a different approach.

Honestly, if you saw the game, you would know that the loss in Game5 had very little to do with the civ. At some point, Chinese player was 50 vills ahead of his flank.

 

[akku]

I am 100% sure there would be more drama if they got an Admin loss over it.

Not sure if you saw the interview after the games - both teams felt that Tatoh's team could still have won the game had they taken a different approach.

Honestly, if you saw the game, you would know that the loss in Game5 had very little to do with the civ. At some point, Chinese player was 50 vills ahead of his flank.

I did see it.
And I've already addressed this argument before.

Do you think Tatoh team would've gone for this wack sling strategy, if they got Bohemians as intended? Of course not.

You could argue they should've improvised in game, which is fair, but having something like this happen to you in the final game.......most people would be rattled and not think straight.
Mentally, the match was over. Which is why I think the match should've been a straight DQ, at least spare them of the pain.

************

So in your words an admin DQ is a better option than what happened yesterday for an 'obvious misclick.'

Why put obvious misclick in quotes?
Unless........you think that wasn't the case. Well......

Yes, I think it would've been better. Fine if you disagree, I've presented my reasoning as to why I prefer that.
Needn't even be necessarily DQ. But have the admin do the thing instead of leaving it upto the opponent.

In nearly every and any other case another player/team would have done the same thing.

Probably not.

I've seen rule based mistakes happen in aoe2 tourneys, and the opponent let it slide.

 

[malamadre]

Tatoh team disnt lose because of chinese, rather poor performance from tatoh and bad strategy overall in the last game.

 

[TheCapybara]

Needn't even be necessarily DQ. But have the admin do the thing instead of leaving it upto the opponent.

Probably not.

I've seen rule based mistakes happen in aoe2 tourneys, and the opponent let it slide.

I agree in general that I dislike things being left up to the opponent (e.g. I think WWP should have received an AL in RotC for the laming on BF against GL, rather than GL being able to overrule that), at least for big tournaments (for lower level, improvement-/community-focused events some leeway is often good if possible).

One possible solution would be for the team which screwed up to have to random from the remaining pool of options, leaving it up to chance rather than their opponents, whilst still preventing them from being able to pick based on what their opponents are doing.

Ultimately, though, the rules are there and in general need following. It opens a whole can of worms when rules are ignored, and we should not criticise players/teams for following the rules in these circumstances. The fault lies with TaToH's team for not communicating properly and double-checking their civs in the lobby, not with Villese's team for claiming the advantage they were given.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

I am not saying this happened in Tatoh's team case but imagine creating a dangerous precedent where you allow teams to pick their civs after such mistake and someone in the future abusing it. Such things cannot be tolerated.

 

[Ator]

Clearly some of you guys have no idea what you're talking about.

First, was it our fault? For sure, we shouldn't have picked double britons, but you know, after 3-4h of heavy focus, you gotta relax a little bit between games. Last game, it took for them like 10 min to pick their civs and while waiting some of us were standing up, scratching or whatever, so there can be a little bit of miss comunication.

Once this, it was so obvious what was going to be our pick, Bohemians and britons are together and both obviously flanks if you don't have mongols pocket. It was on the rules, and we accepted it.

Right now is almost imposible to beat bohemians, we couldn't let the game to get to that point or it would have been over anyways, so it was clearly a game lost after they choosed chinese. Is that what you want for a decider game in a SF of the biggest BF tournament?

I join the tournament just to have some fun, if i'd have been in the same spot you can be 100% sure i'd have let them pick their obviously pick just because I want to win in fairness and it is the best way to show who's better. I've done it on more important tournaments ( to myself).

Regarding the rule. While I get the idea, I think there are better ways to deal with that mistake. For example, you could let one of the teams to choose 4-5 civs and pick one of the civs from that pool.