AOE-II DE R.I.P balance - Lord of the West release discussion

[The_Philos]

Good resent example was the last game between Villese and Viper in RBW3. Viper went this really greedy 5 tc boom. Villese countered this by building an army and just running over Viper. Now imagine Viper had been Sicilians instead of Bulgarians? With 50 serjeants he would've won that or at least delayed Villese enough to build his own army.

No, actually not a good example. Bulgarians only pay half the stone for TCs, therefore it's easier for them to get to 5 TCs and maybe a castle, but it's a huge investment for the Sicilian player.
If you let them get to that point, you should've pressured probably sooner.
Their unique tech is a problem on closed maps though and 10 Serjeants is too much. I guess, it will get nerfed eventually.

 

[Paint]

@The_Philos Villigers colect rescoures in the time they are not constructing TC's (not sure if you knew that) so the extra TC speed is worth about 80 resources each. Also you get out 1-2 villager before a normal civ even has the TC up.

Also they don't need to make vills from 5 TC they only need 5 TC up.

 

[Zeev]

No, actually not a good example. Bulgarians only pay half the stone for TCs, therefore it's easier for them to get to 5 TCs and maybe a castle, but it's a huge investment for the Sicilian player.
If you let them get to that point, you should've pressured probably sooner.
Their unique tech is a problem on closed maps though and 10 Serjeants is too much. I guess, it will get nerfed eventually.

True, but I also think that Viper would've continued playing a little bit longer knowing that if he can just force a castle up, he'll still has a chance to win.

 

[The_Philos]

@The_Philos Villigers colect rescoures in the time they are not constructing TC's (not sure if you knew that) so the extra TC speed is worth about 80 resources each. Also you get out 1-2 villager before a normal civ even has the TC up.

Still... You need to collect the resources for TCs and have a sustainable eco for all that. If you would've played them, you probably would understand, that their eco feels much weaker compared to civs with actually good eco bonuses (except maybe nomad starts). They are better than average, but still weak when facing a strong civ, since they lack a good eco bonus for their early eco.

 

[Paint]

I still don't understand your point, it's so clearly OP it's almost like you have never seen it happen.

 

[The_Philos]

It's OP on paper, most games are decided before this tech comes into effect. We can go for a game, if it's so op you should probably beat me with this strat.
I don't argue that 10 units per TC are too much. I just argue that the new Civs are not that as OP as people claim them to be and have clear weaknesses.

 

[Paint]

The problem is that even if you have "won the game" before and you are 7k to 5k score it still kills you so your point is worthless.

 

[The_Philos]

@Paint Can't argue with that logic, I guess. I'm yet to see a game where first crusade actually did win from a loosing position. So far I only saw games where a already winning player went for it and ended the game with it. And again, I don't neglect that 10 units/TC is too much because it makes first crusade too cost efficient. Not to mention that it can be researched after you reached 200 pop.

 

[shm0wt]

Sicilians are obviously played a lot on nomad starts because the 2x TC build speed is just insane there, but tbh they seem otherwise kinda underwhelming. I initially though donjon spam and the anti-bonus damage would be crazy strong but it sure doesn't seem that way rn. They have a reasonably flexible tech tree and the transport armour bonus seems very broken but that's only gonna matter in very specific cases.

Honestly I am legit surprised by how weak both the new civs feel, but Sicilians definitely have some tricks up their sleeves with 1st crusade and Scutage shenanigans in tg at least. Burgundians otoh just seem like a worse version of Spanish: yeah the UU is strong but other than that it's a cavalry civ without bloodlines. At least the Spanish have a solid tech tree behind them if they don't win in Castle Age, and the trade bonus for lategame tg. Burgundians I feel like all you can do after that is sling (in tg) or yolo Flemish rev to at least lose the game in style 11

 

[shm0wt]

Idk it's still early days and maybe I'll be eating my words in a month or so, but if HC4 is played on the current patch I'd be surprised if the LotW civs see any play (unless nomad is included, in which case it will always be a Sicilians mirror ofc)

 

[Deathcounter]

Idk it's still early days and maybe I'll be eating my words in a month or so, but if HC4 is played on the current patch I'd be surprised if the LotW civs see any play (unless nomad is included, in which case it will always be a Sicilians mirror ofc)

111111
made my day. Very funny - I just assume you have 0 knowledge of game balance - Castle Age UU with 43 Base Attack

 

[Elvaenor]

111111
made my day. Very funny - I just assume you have 0 knowledge of game balance - Castle Age UU with 43 Base Attack

Conqs were considered the best UU in the game, and if Spanish get to them they can destroy everything. Yet you rarely see them in tournaments since it's just so impossible to get to them. So this doesn't necessarily have a correlation. Except for earlier eco upgrades the burgundians have 0 eco bonus, so I wouldn't be surprised to see little of them since it's just hard for them to get to a castle. Also, I think the attack charge will be nerfed before HC4 is even happening.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Conqs were considered the best UU in the game, and if Spanish get to them they can destroy everything. Yet you rarely see them in tournaments since it's just so impossible to get to them. So this doesn't necessarily have a correlation. Except for earlier eco upgrades the burgundians have 0 eco bonus, so I wouldn't be surprised to see little of them since it's just hard for them to get to a castle. Also, I think the attack charge will be nerfed before HC4 is even happening.

Also they are countered by skirmishers now.

 

[LeoMontero]

All saying sicilians are OP because First Crusade. But lets do quick math.
- obviously start with 200 stone.
- they need a castel, plus 5 TCs, plus the upgrade.
- is 850 stone (i already count the 200 from the begining and the starting TC) plus 1100 wood plus the upgrade (300 food - 600 gold)
- its too much resources if you are playing a standard game where conflict start in feudal or early castel.
My point is, unless you are playing nomad with a lot of protection, or far away from everybody, or maybe arena but i just dont see it also, you have no time to do it.
If you are playing against a sicilian, just attack from feudal, make the oponent spend stone, attack his wood. just like @The_Philos said, i didnt see anyone wining because of this. maybe in 1200-1500 elo, but from 1700 to top players i just dont see that happened, at least not in arabia, or any map from the RB or KotD or any map unless nomad TG.

 

[LeoMontero]

They have full cavalier and take less damage from halb. They have Arbs that are fine and good infantry I would say that is about everything you need for 1v1. Also it's not like you ever get to post imp because you click UT and the game is over in castle age.

with that logic, almost every civ has a good tech tree. if you make pikes to counter knights in castel, you just do the wrong strategic. plus they receive less damage, but is a good damage too.

 

[FARM-MAN]

So with the Sicilian land units taken 50% less bonus damage.... Doesn't this make their scouts and light cav a little bit awesome?

Check out these videos I did to test them out.

https://youtu.be/6rDGQisQQ60

https://youtu.be/z3qaf3l5dY4

What do you guys think?

 

[Paint]

with that logic, almost every civ has a good tech tree. if you make pikes to counter knights in castel, you just do the wrong strategic. plus they receive less damage, but is a good damage too.

It's not just pikes on knights it's also camels on knights, Skirmishers on Skirmishers and archers, Pikes vs CA and Skirmishers and many many more.

And no not every civ has a flexible tech tree.

 

[Tocaraca]

It's not just pikes on knights it's also camels on knights, Skirmishers on Skirmishers and archers, Pikes vs CA and Skirmishers and many many more.

And no not every civ has a flexible tech tree.

It has no effect on Knights vs Knights though, or Knights vs Monks, or Archers on Archers, or just vs any standard unit. It's a good bonus for sure but it is questionable at best whether it needs a nerf.
Sicilian tech tree is also terrible. Their Arbalests are just as bad as Aztecs, they have neither Hussar nor Paladin, no Bombard Cannon; they're basically pigeonholed into either Serjeant spam (which is OP with First Crusade) or something like Halberdier + Siege Ram (since they get full infantry upgrades and also Siege Engineers), otherwise they're making bad Arbalests or Cavalier with no longevity

 

[Paint]

It has no effect on Knights vs Knights though, or Knights vs Monks, or Archers on Archers, or just vs any standard unit. It's a good bonus for sure but it is questionable at best whether it needs a nerf.
Sicilian tech tree is also terrible. Their Arbalests are just as bad as Aztecs, they have neither Hussar nor Paladin, no Bombard Cannon; they're basically pigeonholed into either Serjeant spam (which is OP with First Crusade) or something like Halberdier + Siege Ram (since they get full infantry upgrades and also Siege Engineers), otherwise they're making bad Arbalests or Cavalier with no longevity

I don't know how many of the games you play go to late Imperial age but for me full upgraded Cavalier is identical to full upgraded Paladin in 1v1. Also light cav that take less damage from Halb/pike/camel are just as good at raiding then Hussar or at least close to it and they don't have to pay the expansive upgrade cost. We see Aztecs go for Arbalest all the time and as you say they have a good siege Halb push so you have proven me right in your own post.

 

[Tocaraca]

We see Aztecs go for Arbalest all the time

The only reason that's strong is coz Aztecs have a great eco. Besides Aztecs aren't exactly renowned for their good late game tech tree anyway, they just kinda have to work with what they've got.
But yes I probably underestimate the Sicilians tech tree. They just feel underwhelming aside from First Crusade because 1) Donjons in feudal are absolute asscheeks and 2) their economy bonus isn't very strong

 

[kaaro]

The building scouting gave a unique value proposition to "explored" vs "LOC", specially in maps like Arena and Hideout, where resource location are kindof already know.
I kindof got used to having it in the game.


Also, New civs are a joke. Don't feel AOE.

 

[Paint]

The only reason that's strong is coz Aztecs have a great eco. Besides Aztecs aren't exactly renowned for their good late game tech tree anyway, they just kinda have to work with what they've got.
But yes I probably underestimate the Sicilians tech tree. They just feel underwhelming aside from First Crusade because 1) Donjons in feudal are absolute asscheeks and 2) their economy bonus isn't very strong

Pro players pick Aztecs on Arena and BF maps all the time so there late game can't be that bad.

 

[Tocaraca]

Pro players pick Aztecs on Arena and BF maps all the time so there late game can't be that bad.

Arena is coz of their castle age, and the extra relic gold (which is only super useful for 1v1s). BF, I will admit I have never really seen. They do have Siege Onager but that seems like their only good BF late game thing. Even their skirms are only better against certain units, and worse vs others coz of no Ring Archer Armor

 

[Gentle]

They're top tier on BF due to that pesky FI monk push 11

 

[shm0wt]

I think the Sicilians tech tree is pretty good, there are some obvious omissions like hussar, thumb ring etc. but overall I think it's solid. Arbalest without thumb ring or ring armour are still pretty dangerous, light cav with all upgrades are still a solid raiding unit, you can go fu halb and siege, plenty of flexibility there. And the anti-counter mechanic makes all those options that much tougher to deal with. If first crusade was nerfed a bit I think they'd be a really fun civ overall actually. They do lack an obvious game-ending lategame composition, but lots of strong civs don't have that, e.g. Malians: you just have to play in every age and try and get to lategame in a good position, then use your flexibility to counter your opponent's comp.