Problems the Mapping Community faces

[abductedPlatypus]

Hey! I'm here on behalf of the mapping community.

We face a small problem (no drama here, move along). We make a ton of maps, but hardly any of them get any play test time. And play test time is what makes the better maps (hell, even Arabia gets its occasional change). Then there is the problem that we like to make maps more innovative for our own good(think Sunburn and beyond), and those need even more balancing to be playable and on top of that will even ask players to change their precious build orders.

So there are two initiatives we want to try out.
1. Have a weekly list of maps to test. People give feedback, post a recorded game and the mapper will improve their map based on the feedback with a hint of creative-genius stubbornness. We are of course looking for people to help with testing, but you can post your maps over there as well and we will give it a shot. (Head over to our discord: https://discord.gg/4Ue74DC)

2. We would also like to make a map pack to have a place where people can play the matured and well tested custom maps. I personally feel this is especially beneficial to competitive style maps because of level of balance that is required. These maps will be curated by the mapper community with feedback from the players. I imagine - but this is up for debate - we will add 2 land maps, 2 water maps and 2 more creative maps and 1 Arabia variation on a monthly rotation (we switch out a portion of them for fresh ones).
We understand that there are many ongoing tournaments which are more important to the top players to practice for.

There is a third idea, and that would be to get a panel of pros, map makers and casters analysts together so we can discuss map problems and come up with solution together. I know this already happens behind the scenes. But it could be better if it is more centralized and consensus based. Feel free to join us over at the discord for that as well so we can see if it makes sense to organize this.

We would love your thoughts on this! Good idea, bad idea, don't care idea. Would you like to play a custom map pack? Would you want to help with the weekly map testing (if so, join the discord)?

 

[Deathcounter]

Best luck with that. I think it's save to say that nobody in the Proscene cares about maps or mods and therefore they don't get the spotlight they might deserve. I voted no simply because it's the hard truth. Someone suggested a Pubg mod for aoe2 and also put a poll. After the majority voted yes they would like to have that mod Gallas put effort into it and actually made one. I doubt that 75% of all the yes voters even have the mod and no one really plays it. From what I know only T90 actively uses Maps in his community games.

 

[abductedPlatypus]

Luckily Making a map pack isn't that hard. And we want the maps to be tested anyways. So a pilot wouldn't cost a lot of time and we can see from there. Thanks for your feedback!

 

[dodageka]

I like the initiative. And I like to see new maps, so I am glad ECL has some and Nili uses some others for NAC2 qualifiers. I would recommend though to start with a land only mappack first, this might find wider adoption.

Also, could be good to once you have the mappack put together to reach out to a few selected players asking them specifically to play on those maps

 

[Henkdesupernerd]

The problem of the second initiative of having a mappack is that it would generate a selected map from a (wide) variaty of maps in the pack. If the player of a mappack is unaware of the content, it can be very surprising for them, especially since the name of the map can (unlike with full random) not be retrieved from the objectives menu. Therefor playing such map introduces a discrapancy between players who know the maps (from playing the mappack before) and players who havent played the maps before. This similar discrapancy is seen in megarandom: it will not be known how the map looks like untill you have scouted thoroughly or unless you know all possible map generations of the mappack.

Especially for community games this can be confused for maps where units are changed or winconditions are different (lose if king dies etc), altough, the seriousness for communitygames is less important so not knowing the map beforehand is okay and rather common.

Also for competitive maps an ever changing starting conditions and the presence of water (and fish!) or absence of it can be a hindering factor for the playability and the balance of such mappack.

That aside these map packs can be a fun way to be regularly introduced to new maps, and if the player of such mappack is exposed to the information of each map it could work, and even be a good way to get exposed to a diversity of potentially good maps you might otherwise not hear about.

Obviously I am all excited about the first initiative since I love to make and play new maps - im competitive or community setting.

 

[kw1k000000]

Speaking from a normal non pro player point of view, most people play this game for personal enjoyment in the settings they are familiar with. This applies to most players from NPL 1000 to Voobly 17-1800.

Very few people have the incentive and inclination to be a pro player so whats the point in playing new maps. Its not fun.

You have phrased the NO response as if the only challenge in playing new maps is them being harder. Reality is that if you want to play Arabia at a decent level forget 2k+ its hard as well. There is no additional incentive for learning and playing a new map which you are not familiar with. It has nothing to do with new map being harder.

Above might sound harsh but nothing personal against you guys.

 

[OrnLu528]

With all of the big tournaments going on right now (ECL, NAC2, KoTD2), I think you will find it difficult to find top players willing to spend their time playing these new maps - however interesting they may be. They just don't have any real incentive.

Also, speaking as an analyst, I think the biggest problems the more creative maps suffer from these days are specific civ interactions with any sort of atypical start. Civs like Indians, Franks, Mongols, and Chinese can all so heavily abuse these sorts of early games that it really limits gameplay. Just look at maps like Dry River, El Dorado, Land Madness, Prairie, etc. But that's just my opinion *shrugs*

 

[woot]

Speaking from a normal non pro player point of view, most people play this game for personal enjoyment in the settings they are familiar with. This applies to most players from NPL 1000 to Voobly 17-1800.

Very few people have the incentive and inclination to be a pro player so whats the point in playing new maps. Its not fun.

You have phrased the NO response as if the only challenge in playing new maps is them being harder. Reality is that if you want to play Arabia at a decent level forget 2k+ its hard as well. There is no additional incentive for learning and playing a new map which you are not familiar with. It has nothing to do with new map being harder.

Above might sound harsh but nothing personal against you guys.

That's not true for every one. I'm a noob and I'm bored of the set game style of arabia/arena/bf. I'd very much like to play a map that I dont know already. That also increases the advantage of strategy over mechanics and will be more fun for noob players.

 

[woot]

It would be nice to have a set of open land based maps in a single map. Arabia all the time isn't much fun. Maybe a set of 5 open land maps would be great if they have decent balance etc.

 

[orangereaper]

Speaking from a normal non pro player point of view, most people play this game for personal enjoyment in the settings they are familiar with. This applies to most players from NPL 1000 to Voobly 17-1800.

Very few people have the incentive and inclination to be a pro player so whats the point in playing new maps. Its not fun.

You have phrased the NO response as if the only challenge in playing new maps is them being harder. Reality is that if you want to play Arabia at a decent level forget 2k+ its hard as well. There is no additional incentive for learning and playing a new map which you are not familiar with. It has nothing to do with new map being harder.

Above might sound harsh but nothing personal against you guys.

I whole-heartedly agree.

I play AOE2 for fun, its hard enough to get a decent match-up going with a pool of 6-8 balanced player. Then there is lag, someone dropping and someone tanking so bad that players call early gg and game is over.

Without knowing the meta (for me it means having watched pro-player play and memorize the build order more or less), its not fun.
Look I'm at 'sucky' AOE2 player but I want to be a good 'sucky' player. I can give a run for the money on say 1v1 Ara huns vs 1700, but put me a water map galley war its over for me already.

I stick to Ara/BF only. But I love the new maps in ECL. Like/Love the idea of more pro (2k+ players) adopting and playing these maps

 

[kronrad]

I think it would be very beneficial if this curated map pack would have a thread on aoezone where each map has screenshots and descriptions. I think two big blocks on hypothetically interested people trying new maps are lack of information and lack of curation(the second you’re already addressing).

 

[Black Adder]

New maps are good to break the stale meta and such, problem is not many players actually want to break their standard way of playing. Just look at it, how often are maps even heftily played in high-profile tournaments for months (even something wide-spread like Nations Cup) played in random games... The only real way to have new maps played and maybe start to be considered as "new meta" is to force them in, for example into the standard random mapset. In AoM we have plenty of new maps, but they go largely unnoticed, and only those we curate and put into the standard random mapset in the Balance Patch see regular play. We put special maps in tournaments, but that's their extent of use as well - it's the same here.

You can have your maps played if you get them to be featured in a tournament, maybe you can try some regular thing like every week different map, something akin to the Voobly's SmackDowns, but I'm afraid the only way to get them really played large-scale is to add them to the random mapset in WK or something - I wouldn't think that being a problem really, present a list of new maps on the forums here, see which ones people consider the best (they would probably have to be reasonably standardy) and add them to the random list. I don't think you can realistically hope though to replace Arabia or BF as the meat of the day, so even this is going to be difficult :d

Your chance, especially on the testing, probably lies in targeting the small group of players who enjoy new things regularly and from them spread it, and how to find them? Well, advertise, post on forums, on Voobly, get a streamer to play your map, anywhere it fits, they are there, somewhere. You're pretty much playing the long tail here, so you're looking to gather crumbs until you get a whole breadful.

Last thing, but not least - be very pessimistic about people's "promises" to help you and play and test and even being excited about all this (even though it's cool and very good for the game and community to have active people like you) - I guess this topic is already a reaction to you knowing the reality of this. Promises/hype come easy, actual time spent on helping not so much, and it can lead to a lot of disheartening after putting tons of work into an actual good product only for it to not be appreciated as it deserves. People just tend to implicitly assume that the mysterious, enigmatic "someone else" from the group that supports the initiative will do it...

In other words, do it and try it if you want to further the map-making community, maybe you'll hit the right timing and some other right buttons and it'll work, you never know, but it seems you already well know how it could also end, though every bit of exposure is good for your efforts - perseverance could be the key.

 

[dataidiot]

I would add another option: small tournaments. Weekly or monthly Tournaments with 3 to 6 maps could be really fun and make some players try the new content map developers bring us. Even if not having money prizes might take away the interest of the best players, the lack of opportunity for players in the 1800 - 2100 range to play more competitive matches might add some hype. Perhaps some games would get the attention of streamers, especially if the maps could provide exciting games(Open and agressive land maps never fail!). Just one note: keep the tournaments 1v1 or 2v2, so it's easier to get a reasonable ammount of players.
Regarding the 2 options in the OP, I think the first is not that good. I've tried to host 1v1 games in different maps and mostly I'd wait some dozens of minutes until I got a game or gave up. I'd say there is enough people willing to play new settings, but in a similar level, in a specific time range and in a situation that both players have a decent knowledge of the map not really. The second idea, on the other hand, is very interesting. If a map pack gets really known, I'd say it could have longevity in daily play. But make sure to have one FULL land map pack*. Especially after the new water balance, water maps don't attract many people. Also, changes in a map pack shouldn't happen more than once a month, so it's easier for players to follow up the changes.

Very few people have the incentive and inclination to be a pro player so whats the point in playing new maps. Its not fun.

Take a random new map that's not clear how it should be played when you check it for the first time. Then try to find out the strategical aspects of the abundance or scarcity of resources, placement of hills and cliffs(or the lack of them), the design of the map for agression, how you start the game might affect the gameplay(more vills? No scouts? Extra TCs or Nomad? 3 farms next to Town Center?). Then take all the information and start guessing, having ideas, compare it with everything you know about AoE II. Once all that is done, go for a build order, a clear plan, the execution of your thoughts. Fail, improve slightly, then fail again, until you find out the way to proper way to play the map and realize you can see the thin line between the optimal play and a total disaster. It's not fun. It's way more than that.

* By FULL land map pack, I mean maps that going for water military units is not viable. If the creator wants to add small lakes where players can dock, shallows to restrict walling or some water to add some beauty to the design, that wouldn't be a problem.

PS: If anyone wants to play new maps, just message me on Voobly. My nickname there is klrz_ask. If any map maker wants me to test new content, I'm not even close to high level but I could give him/her my noob thoughts.

 

[asdfasdfasdf1]

I think the best way to promote new maps/settings would be something aoe2 DE could offer: much better client and in-game lobby. It should be as streamlined as possible. I think the main issue is that testing and trying maps takes too much effort for players, and people (understandably) prefer to stick with maps they know already.

It would be great if the host selects a map in the lobby, an image of the map appears on the (top-right) screen, like in C&C games. If the host selects a map pack, players could click a button called 'View map pack', and a list of images of the possible maps appear. Right now, people have to look up the map just to know what it looks like, or host a game first in singleplayer. It's especially hard if there is a language barrier and can't explain the map or share links. I would also love an integrated pick-banning system of civs (which could be disabled by the host)

secondly, I think it would be really great if a client (like Voobly) has low-key weekly tournaments, that don't even require to sign up for in advance. The tournaments could be used to promote a map pack or unique settings. The way it works would be that you can simply press a button to join the tournament, and you will be automatically be paired with a random player from that same lobby. You score points depending on rating, and the winner will have some useless badge to show off.

 

[abductedPlatypus]

I have read every comment. And we will discuss them within the mapping community. There are some really good remarks (even the less fun ones), encouragements and even different ideas. Thanks a ton!

Expect a some kind of pack with a type of maps. Hopefully not too long from now. Screenshots will be provided (there are a few systems already in place to make it easier :D).

 

[Cicero]

One of the 'problems' is that there will already be maps out there which could be really great for the competitive scene, and would maybe even become standard in tournaments if given a chance. But we don't know which ones they are. So any organized effort to see these played is going to be a good thing, and hopefully we can see some more maps get 'discovered'.

I think the map pack as suggested might be a bit much - also a lot of people will be put off by the inclusion of water maps. I would suggest maybe just ~2 maps of the month (not a mappack), with 1 standard land map, and 1 more unconventional map.

What would be cool would be to have something like a rating ladder for the map of the month, but I expect that won't be possible.

 

[malamadre]

Dunno man, its hard enough to fill a lobby with decent players in a standard map. People wont play them. I guess you can give it a try, but dont expect much.

 

[Double_N]

I would suggest to make a league, like a own ladder. Weekly, monthly, whatever. Maybe with playoffs of top4 to create some end of the season hype. Maybe give extra points to players who play a lot in those maps, to incentivise people playing against players further from their rating.

 

[kronrad]

Has there been any resolution on this from the mapping community?

 

[abductedPlatypus]

Yes, we are secetly working on something secret that might even get it's own announcement before we announce it. Stay tuned!

Also some people reached out to us to get and help us get more new maps played in tournaments. (This one has been announced publicly so far: https://www.aoezone.net/calendar/events/spring-vs-project_belgium-bo21-550-showmatch.752/?id=760)

We also did some groups to test maps, but it's on hold during xmas. And we will continue in the new year.