The original Torah and original Bible are ofcourse held holy by Muslims but they are also lost forever. Hence why the Quran was even needed. Hope nobody is confused in this regard.
islington how can you prove someone wrong about the meaning of the verses? You post here your own pov and carlos post his. How do you know yours is true?
If you don't actually understand the context, its a lot harder to take you seriously.
As you can see in response of christians there is a context that a reader should be able to understand before juding that. I have tried to explain you guys in my previous posts that the verses may have been related to eachother and one can be explained in another one so you do really need to understand the context before judging that.I am not sure what why you used Matthew 23:1-3, but I believe that Jesus was saying to people that they should obey their authorities but they shouldn't behave the way they do, he is explaining in in other verses,
islington how can you prove someone wrong about the meaning of the verses? You post here your own pov and carlos post his. How do you know yours is true?If you don't actually understand the context, its a lot harder to take you seriously.As you can see in response of christians there is a context that a reader should be able to understand before juding that. I have tried to explain you guys in my previous posts that the verses may have been related to eachother and one can be explained in another one so you do really need to understand the context before judging that.I am not sure what why you used Matthew 23:1-3, but I believe that Jesus was saying to people that they should obey their authorities but they shouldn't behave the way they do, he is explaining in in other verses,
Being extremely biased in aim of proving them wrong won't help at all, as it has not so far
Holy **** dude. If I'm repeating myself over and over that's because you keep claiming things I haven't claimed again and again. How many times do I really have to repeat to you over and over for you to understand that Quran is not a religion and that I don't claim it to be necessarily more violent than the Torah for you to stop arguing this bullshit? I claimed that Islam is more violent than Christianity and perfectly justified my claims. I also told you that attempting to prove Christianity as violent won't make your Islam peaceful. Now where in the ENTIRE thread did I claim anything about how violent or peaceful Judaism is? I haven't touched on Judaism the whole thread because I don't completely know what Judaism is (other than the fact that it considers Torah holy like Christianity and Islam - which is not enough to make any arguments), so why do you seriously LIE and put arguments in my mouth? On a side note, we don't have Jews executing adulterers and apostates today. But your Islamic world of Saudi, Pakistan, Iran, Egypt etc support such heinous punishments. Why? (That's something to think over for you, not making any claims about Judaism)LOL you don't even read other peoples posts and keep on bragging same thing over and over, even though your claims were proved wrong? As I mentioned in my previous post that I was only showing how absurd your weird perspective is, where you claimed that "Quran" and Islam are more violent than other religions. Now you also agreed that "Judaism" is more violent than Islam. You are going against your own words, that's brilliant.
You pointed out a verse which deals with HYPOCRITES and pretended or assumed that it applies to APOSTATES. I showed you with context why the verse did not deal with apostates. It talked about people who were labelled unbelievers (despite their practice of Islam) by Muhammad because when they had a choice they refused to emigrate to Islamic territory, and allegedly were helping Muhammad's enemies while practicing Islam.I have told you before that Quran is held above any hadith and I have showed you many verses that tell to forgive apostates and forbid killings and terrorism.
You copy pasted this argument from a site conveniently omitting a part. Let me link the site for you: http://www.message4muslims.org.uk/islam ... -apostasy/The Caliph ‘Umar is said not to have approved of the death penalty as he approved of the traditions where Muhammad is related to forgive apostates (Nasai, Abu Dawud, Ibn Hanbal and Tabari).
The Caliph ‘Umar is said not to have approved of the death penalty as he approved of the traditions where Muhammad is related to forgive apostates (Nasai, Abu Dawud, Ibn Hanbal and Tabari). On the other hand others said that execution should be by the sword and that traditions exist saying the apostate should be tortured. (’Umar 2 had some of them tied to a post and a lance thrust into their heart).
The legal penalty for apostasy is not found in the Quran but in the Hadith. There is not a single Muslim group that looks to the Quran as the only rule of faith and practice. The lock of Quran obscurity opens only to the key of Tradition. Such Traditions in regard to apostates and Muhammad’s estimate of them are given in both Bukhari and Muslim. We would not quote such Traditions if it were not necessary in order to refute the statements of those who constantly assert that there is no penalty for apostasy in Islam.
Sahih al-Bukhari 6922 - Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire). I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him), "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."
Sahih al-Bukhari 6923 - Narrated Abu Burda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed.
Sahih al-Bukhari 6930 - Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah's Messenger, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Sunan Abu Dawud 4346 - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe, who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" - upon finding out that grammatical changes could be made. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).
al-Muwatta of Imam Malik (36.18.15) - "The Messenger of Allah said, "If someone changes his religion - then strike off his head."
Sahih al-Bukhari 52:260 - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' " (Volume 52 verse 260 when Bukhari is compiled into volumes)
18:74 to 18:80 - So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidhr killed him. [Moses] said, "Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing." [Al-Khidhr] said, "Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?" [Moses] said, "If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse." So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidhr restored it. [Moses] said, "If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment." [Al-Khidhr] said, "This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience. As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force. And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.
Where in this entire Hadith is apostasy even talked about? Why are you wasting my time here with stuff that has nothing to do with what we are talking?If you want to use the hadith route:
ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) reported:
A man came to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, with the killer of his relative.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:
Pardon him. But the man refused.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said
Take the blood money. But the man refused.
The Prophet (peace and blessings Allah be upon him) said:
Go and kill him, for you are like him.
Ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) said:
So the man let him go.
Source: Sunan An-Nasa’i 4730, Grade: Sahih
"Be merciful to others and you will receive mercy. Forgive others and Allah will forgive you."
Source: Musnad Ahmad 7001, Grade: Sahih
There is a distinction between an apostate who intends to physically harm the community and an apostate who only spiritually harms himself. Minor apostasy is when a person embraces Islam while knowing its virtues and later rejects it. There is no legal punishment for the minor apostate as long as they do not try to physically harm the community.
You must be seriously delusional if you think 4:137 prescribes leaving apostates alone. The only thing this verse does is make it clear that Allah won't forgive the apostate. It doesn't deal with the earthly punishment for the apostates at all. Another verse talks about an earthly punishment, but it doesn't tell you what the punishment is:"Verily, those who believed and then disbelieved, then believed and then disbelieved and increased in disbelief, never will Allah forgive them nor will He guide them to a right way." (Quran 4:137)
In this verse, Allah describes a person who apostates from Islam twice and He does not prescribe legal punishment for him, but rather He only warns the apostate about severe punishment in the Hereafter. This demonstrates that the general rule is an apostate should be left alone, as the Quran prohibits compulsion in religion.
The prophet refused to cancel the guy's pledge embracing Islam. Then he referred to the guy as "an impurity that must be expelled from Medina". What else can we infer from this verse?Jabir reported: A bedouin came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and gave the pledge of allegiance for embracing Islam. The next day he came with a fever and said, “Please cancel my pledge.” The Prophet refused three times and he said: Medina is like a furnace. It expels its impurities and collects what is pure. (Sahih Bukhari 1784)
In this example, a man rejected Islam after embracing it but the Prophet did not apply legal punishment to him.
I haven't called everyone biased here, but the ones who have been trying to distort verses off picking up one by one. My advice is, take all into account as whole, the way you can tell your concerns about the Quran and Islam, but without knowing the context it's pointless doing the argument.Ok lets not discuss verses one by one , still the same question: You and others(islington , etc) said that you are not experts(hafiz), and still so sure about your interpratations. I know there are scholars/experts who claim the same with you, but also there are some who oppose to you and support violence. My point is you call everyone biased here, but your claims are not %100 true as well.
I haven't called everyone biased here, but the ones who have been trying to distort verses off picking up one by one. My advice is, take all into account as whole, the way you can tell your concerns about the Quran and Islam, but without knowing the context it's pointless doing the argument.Ok lets not discuss verses one by one , still the same question: You and others(islington , etc) said that you are not experts(hafiz), and still so sure about your interpratations. I know there are scholars/experts who claim the same with you, but also there are some who oppose to you and support violence. My point is you call everyone biased here, but your claims are not %100 true as well.
I and islington may not be an hafiz nor experts but we certainly are taught by Islamic traditions so that simply gives us a better perspective in this matter since we are very familiar with it.
ISIS is an terrorist organization and has violated most of Islamic laws which we got enough evidence to count them off. They have killed more muslims than non-muslims, burned people (strictly forbidden in Quran and can not be used in any terms on punishment), and still been killing muslims. Yes they are shouting in name of Allah but that does NOT give you any right of calling muslims as terrorirsts because the only thing they do is saying 'Allah-u Akbar'.Thats my point, i agree that you are familiar with Islam. On the other hand ISIS and Muslim countries are familiar with that too. They are applying some laws that you dont approve(like killing non-believers as you said before). My question is how can you know that their interpratations/conclusions/laws are wrong and yours right?
I don't think anyone would admit being biased here, i didn't expect that either I have not seen any of Islams fault so far and trust me I have been doing most of the things that are adviced by our prophet and that perfectly works. I would use the word ''heartily'' instead ''blindly'' though. Most of your quoted verses were correct however you're missing a huge part regarding the commentary as whole.I can tell you I'm not biased in this regard. I'm not trying to distort anything. Just being honest about what I find from Independent analysis. You or Islington may be more taught with Islamic traditions but you people are clearly biased here trying to portray Islam as a perfect religion (which if you claim).
A short background about myself: I was born into a hindu family and thankfully not raised up too religiously. Despite this, I never felt a need to question God or even Religion seriously until I was maybe past 16 years of age or so. Started thinking independently in what was a slow transition. Rejected my birth religion and questions God's existence. I have no need whatsoever to be biased to any Religion now. I firmly believe that they are all false. In my analysis I've made it a rule to throw political correctness out of the window and call a spade as a spade. I don't feel the need to claim than all religions are equally good or bad, or that Religion has nothing to do with the problems and everything is due to politics and economy. There is nothing holy in my sight.
Emin, you people are the ones who are trusting Muhammad blindly and claiming perfection without a full analysis. I have referred to the hadiths more often than anyone in this thread with accurate references.
Just think about this: Some warlord claimed divine verses from God and gathered a mass following. This got handed down generations. You got brainwashed systematically into hundred percent faith in something you didn't hundred percent analyse. You forget that the burden of proof is on the team that claims perfection.
Plus quran has a lot of scientific errors. Denial of evolution? Setting place/Rising place of the sun? Prophet split moon into two? Do you honestly think all these are facts?
Um, did your prophet advised you to cheat two times and lie and lie until you are proven guilty? Were not you supposed to leave aoc scene? Instead you decided to come back and teach us all a lesson about humanity and kindness that you were thought from some perfect book.I have not seen any of Islams fault so far and trust me I have been doing most of the things that are adviced by our prophet and that perfectly works.
Um, did your prophet advised you to cheat two times and lie and lie until you are proven guilty? Were not you supposed to leave aoc scene? Instead you decided to come back and teach us all a lesson about humanity and kindness that you were thought from some perfect book.I have not seen any of Islams fault so far and trust me I have been doing most of the things that are adviced by our prophet and that perfectly works.
I got to know by experience how to smile at trolls who probably has sad lifes that leads them to throw **** on internet forums.Um, did your prophet advised you to cheat two times and lie and lie until you are proven guilty? Were not you supposed to leave aoc scene? Instead you decided to come back and teach us all a lesson about humanity and kindness that you were thought from some perfect book.
ISIS is an terrorist organization and has violated most of Islamic laws which we got enough evidence to count them off. They have killed more muslims than non-muslims, burned people (strictly forbidden in Quran and can not be used in any terms on punishment), and still been killing muslims. Yes they are shouting in name of Allah but that does NOT give you any right of calling muslims as terrorirsts because the only thing they do is saying 'Allah-u Akbar'.Thats my point, i agree that you are familiar with Islam. On the other hand ISIS and Muslim countries are familiar with that too. They are applying some laws that you dont approve(like killing non-believers as you said before). My question is how can you know that their interpratations/conclusions/laws are wrong and yours right?
The verses are pretty stated in Quran regarding this matter and what they do is clearly violate of verses, by the way muslim countries don't even discuss this matter anymore, because it's as clear as day to us, but you non-muslims do discuss that for some reason (!)
18:86 - Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
18:90 - Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.
There is a person called Mujaddid. A hadith states, "Verily Allah sends to this Ummah at the head of every one hundred years someone who will renew the Deen for it". The one is being chosen by Allah in the first place, also officially chosen by known scholars according to the knowladge the one has. The mujaddid is the one who's the top of the century for the fatwa's in this regard. This does prevent misunderstanding regarding Islam and false informations. I hope that answers your question.You still didnt answer my question. Let me tell you with an example. Think about a law/conclusion and lets call it L. There are N ppl(for example you, islington, many hafiz, scholar etc..) say that this is for sure the right law/conclusion to obtained according to Quran/Hadits. But there are also M ppl saying the opposite thing about that matter. What i am saying is there are scholar/experts in both sides, You cant just say this verse means that and im right
Not going to write one page down to explain how nonsense evolution is. lolOkay let's drop the moral argument for the time being and focus on the scientific/factual errors in the Quran or by your Prophet.
1. Denial of Human Evolution: Science has today accepted human evolution as a fact almost universally. This contradicts the whole idea that humans were created as Adam and Eve and all humans are their descendants. How do you explain this?
2. Moon was split into two by Prophet: There is no evidence whatsoever to show that the moon was split into two ever, let one during the time of Prophet.
3. The Quran talks about the orbits of the Sun and the Moon, but not once about Earth's movement - neither rotation nor revolution around the sun. This is pretty obviously due to the fact that the author must have thought Sun orbited the earth (to be fair to the Quran, nobody knew otherwise )
4. The Quran mentions rising place and setting place for the Sun:
18:86 - Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
18:90 - Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom.
Scholars have tried their best to twist this verse and to re-interpret it but anything results in an embarrassing situation.