AOE-II No Pathing improvement since Userpatch

[Deathcounter]

Why? This is a remake of a remake, pathing issues are known, and yet Microsoft does nothing to improve it, today I had boar running back even tho I shot it twice,
Hell, I don't even have to give examples, it's in every of our games...
Has DE improved matchmaking? No
Take this video for example

Aoe2 Pathfinding Quirks: When Units Refuse to Walk Over Deleted Buildings

If units are issued the same order repeatedly, they don't compute a new path to their target, even if a more efficient path becomes available. Discord: https...

youtu.be

In many modern games pathfinding is not such an issue like in DE, but instead of improving it, they probably took a peek at Userpatch Pathfinding and copied it (wouldn't be the first time MS stole fanmade content).
Whether that one Sheppard is incapable of going to that sheep even tho there are only 7/8 on it, or not recalculating the route when things change... For a remake of a remake, this is not acceptable...

After I practised build orders and had some pathing issues, I watched this video and saw this

4v4 Arabia | Britons Pocket

Channel Membership ► https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChOSBHAdhDG8J0yGHJrPoNQ/joinTwitch ► https://www.twitch.tv/theviperTheViper Merch ► https://teespring.c...

youtu.be

I don't give a sh*t about graphics, I want a good playing experience and current pathfinding grinds my gears
Not to mention that melee units cant go into enemy units, the weird stuck matchmaking interface or the Brasilian Server

 

[Jarvin]

, pathing issues are known, and yet Microsoft does nothing

Ayy lmao

 

[Paint]

Path finding has been fine for me since the last patch. Sometimes it messes up but that has always been the case I think we just notice it a lot more right now because of cognitive bias.

 

[teutonic_tanks]

in my eyes the pathing is better than in RealMS voobly, but maybe i'm wrong.

 

[Influenza]

there is a 0% chance that the pathing is better on DE compared to voobly. It's either about the same or worse

 

After ten months of a roller coaster of patches: Just play the game as it is and be happy as long as you can actually play a game to the end/play a game on Arabia/...

If you don't feel comfortable either stop playing, switch platforms, complain in their forums or ... yeah ... *shrug* ... play other games, get other hobbies, etc. There is so much happening right now in the world I can't even think about why it's a necessity to complain about something of which the path was clear from the beginning on.

 

[Skittle]

When I read key words like issues, no improvement and weird one question comes to my mind: What is DE realms doing?

 

[MembTV]

for me, the biggest concern to me is that sometimes i get people lagging (yellow clock) even in 1v1, team games are almost impossible, since always lag or disconnect, that should be the main focus atm, to improve the performance, pathing is not perfect and probably won´t be, but now is better for sure that it was, insist focus in performance...

 

[F1Re__]

again same post 11

 

[Pinch3Terneira]

for me, the biggest concern to me is that sometimes i get people lagging (yellow clock) even in 1v1, team games are almost impossible, since always lag or disconnect, that should be the main focus atm, to improve the performance, pathing is not perfect and probably won´t be, but now is better for sure that it was, insist focus in performance...

I only play 1v1 rankeds so when i see a yellow clock is insta-quit. I prefer to lose some points instead of being 30 min playing a massive lagfest.

Other problem is the Brazil server, overpopulated and lagging for everyone.

 

[SouFire]

Someone has to speak out loud the lag has increased due more voobly players doing the transition without enough powerful computers or net, last team games i have played i have been feeling like playing in voobly, my vills randomly stop working, military units engage battles like if they were on stand ground(they don't move or hit), i am unable to block army even with larger groups of army, it is a mess, yeah most of those games have been in the brazil server, it adds a lot of unnecessary latency.

The path finding gets worse with lag or high latency in all game versions.

The benchmark should ask 1200 for 4x4, 1150 for 3x3 and 1100 for 2x2, let those 1k score computers for 1x1 only.

 

[Halleju]

that should be the main focus atm, to improve the performance, pathing is not perfect and probably won´t be, but now is better for sure that it was, insist focus in performance...

You have lagging people in every matchmaking there is out there. There will always be people with bad internet / bad PCs and no one can change it. But the difference is, that in other games only the people themselves lag and not the game. This is the biggest issue with AoE, that the whole game lags because of one player. Idk if it's possible to change it, but it would be very welcomed.

 

[Andre_2i]

in my eyes the pathing is better than in RealMS voobly, but maybe i'm wrong.

Have you ever sent vils to take deers to see how they get stuck into eachother kappapride? Have you seen seen in voobly vils rotating into eachother to infinity? i have never sent more than 1 vil through a 1 tile gap in months because it's too traumatic

 

[SilverHawk]

You have lagging people in every matchmaking there is out there. There will always be people with bad internet / bad PCs and no one can change it. But the difference is, that in other games only the people themselves lag and not the game. This is the biggest issue with AoE, that the whole game lags because of one player. Idk if it's possible to change it, but it would be very welcomed.

Due to the stepped nature of the core engine itself, I don't think this is possible. Clients still have to wait for updates from every other client before it can step the simulation forward (move everyone's units on your screen based on those unit's positions on their home screen). If you just let one person lag then their units become "Out of Sync" (memories anyone?) with their position on your screen, breaking all the logic.

In games that don't have this kind of system (mostly FPS's in my experience) you can shoot, or be shot by, someone who wasn't actually there, someone who doesn't appear to be shooting you, someone who you believe you shot first but actually, due to latency, they shot first, etc. The core Age design values network precision over network performance.

 

[Bowserlord]

cry me a river randon noname

 

[Deathcounter]

Check what my villager did when i docked (teal) Northwest (and where the jaguar was). My Villager wasnt able to get there and got stuck, even when i retasked it + the second villager was going to do the same

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/735471961697812550/742622737423532082/MP_Replay_v101.101.39515.0_2020.08.10_205031_2.aoe2record

Minute 6:55, stop at 6:35 (it even started earlier that she went to her dancing spot, but the jaguar prevented it) and turn on View Lock if you dont believe me that i tasked it normally.
I tasked her to dock, she danced, then when i retasked her she kept on dancin, then i told her to dock right in front of her and sent the other vill to dock there... He also was about to go where she "danced", meaning he would have done the same very likely.... And the game wasn't laggy, as it was a friends game with low ping and high FPS. I have never seen such pathing error on Voobly/Userpatch

That game was fun tho, Sudden Death 11

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Due to the stepped nature of the core engine itself, I don't think this is possible. Clients still have to wait for updates from every other client before it can step the simulation forward (move everyone's units on your screen based on those unit's positions on their home screen). If you just let one person lag then their units become "Out of Sync" (memories anyone?) with their position on your screen, breaking all the logic.

It sounds like a remaster of the game should maybe have involved remaking the engine to incorporate modern features while retaining the feel of the original? I can't imagine that is particularly difficult at this point for a game with 2D graphics.

 

[Johnny Walrus]

imo it’s not a big or issue. You have to delete the building first.
Otherwise if your opponent clicked into your base, and you deleted a wall behind him to sneak out, his units would auto path back to where you didn’t want him to notice. It’s like that on purpose.

 

[Relux_the_Relux]

I can't imagine that is particularly difficult at this point for a game with 2D graphics.

What does 2d graphics have to do with the handling of online multiplayer`?

 

[Deathcounter]

What does 2d graphics have to do with the handling of online multiplayer`?

See, as you can imagine, rendering 3D Objects and calculating their pathing, behaviour, animations and the 3D landscape will always require more computing power than a multiplayer game

 

[Relux_the_Relux]

Yes but they were talking about the ease of implement on the dev side.

 

[SilverHawk]

It sounds like a remaster of the game should maybe have involved remaking the engine to incorporate modern features while retaining the feel of the original?

Unfortunately, this is a massive undertaking that would take hundreds of dev hours and cost tens of thousands with little to show execs for a long time. Without micro-transactions or some other form of long-term income on the table it's just not justified, and you're better off making a new game entirely.

I honestly have no idea how much of the core Genie engine is still code written in 1999. What I do know, however, is that codebases can get messy quick. I can't imagine what the Genie codebase looks like now after 20+ years of bolting on features.

 

[SouFire]

Unfortunately, this is a massive undertaking that would take hundreds of dev hours and cost tens of thousands with little to show execs for a long time. Without micro-transactions or some other form of long-term income on the table it's just not justified, and you're better off making a new game entirely.

I honestly have no idea how much of the core Genie engine is still code written in 1999. What I do know, however, is that codebases can get messy quick. I can't imagine what the Genie codebase looks like now after 20+ years of bolting on features.

They could have used aoe 3 engine, replace data and update from there, all the new assets were built in 3D so it wouldn't have been so difficult, i was expecting that to jump the restrictions that the old engine had, but they used the same, files were 8 bits with 16kbs as weight, now there are files of GB of weight and larger resolutions, increasing the demanding compute power, that one single core is not capable to keep up, that was a mistake in design, old engine works great with light files, well 500 pop games were already struggling at voobly version, even in the HD version 4x4 200 pop was unplayable, they should have known that better.

 

[Socksyy]

The Spyro Reignited Trilogy is a perfect example of a remaster done well from the ground up within a new engine.

 

[SilverHawk]

They could have used aoe 3 engine, replace data and update from there, all the new assets were built in 3D so it wouldn't have been so difficult

Well the Bang! Engine is a completely different beast altogether. There doesn't seem to be a built-in grid, for example, which seems simple on the surface but could have far reaching consequences we don't know about. In AoE2 everything relies on a grid. Unit placement, building placement, resource placement, unit ranges, splash damage, pathfinding, etc. All of these use the grid inherently. Trees and buildings falling in Age3 are not pre-rendered sprites but actual physics calculations. The differences in implementation between 2D and 3D systems are astronomical. Unity has an entirely different system to handle 2D game development from what I recall.

that one single core is not capable to keep up, that was a mistake in design, old engine works great with light files, well 500 pop games were already struggling at voobly version, even in the HD version 4x4 200 pop was unplayable, they should have known that better.

That wasn't a mistake in design at the time. Multi-threading didn'teven exist when the Genie engine was developed. Processors only had one thread. There were no hooks in the C language at the time to even support multiple threads.

I don't disagree that the core engine should be torn apart/upgraded to include the latest and greatest that computing has to offer, but like I stated in an earlier post that just takes too much money and time to justify.

The Spyro Reignited Trilogy is a perfect example of a remaster done well from the ground up within a new engine.

Similarly, the Crash Bandicoot remake is fantastic, but the new physics system that was implemented actually behaves slightly differently and causes issues for long-time players. There's 20+ years of tweaks baked into the Genie engine, and I honestly think it's damn near impossible to perfectly replicate with a new game engine. I guarantee there will be changes that people will notice. Just look at what happened when the graphics were up-resed. Now hit boxes are weird and it required adding the hotkey to ignore hit-boxes while moving units.