Nili announces NC4 - $100K AoE4 LAN

[huntskiki]

@MaSmOrRa 's Kings & Plebians episode with Nili was great. Brought up a lot of the points people here have been talking about. I will say that Nili seems pretty delusional about the whole thing.

He claims that hosting this aoe4 tournament does not hurt aoe2 because it shouldn't affect aoe2, but in Nili's video explaining the announcement he says that he could have gone with either aoe2 or aoe4. So, the decision was not whether to host an aoe4 tournament or not, but whether to host an aoe2 tournament or an aoe4 tournament.

I do not recall Nili saying that he decided not to host an aoe2 tournament because there were other events or to balance the funding between the two games. Instead, he made the decision primarily because aoe4 is the game he is most interested in right now and that's what he felt would make the best event (presumably because he wouldn't be as interested in an aoe2 event right now and he's the one running this one). It's a bit rich to suggest that a decision like is not hurting aoe2. It's like having a plant and saying that because you're not watering it, you're not hurting it - meanwhile, you have an irrigation system set up for your new plant (aoe4).

It is what it is. Hopefully, we get some decent events for aoe2 this year. Memb confirmed BoA a while ago. I'm sure t90 will do a big one at some point this year as well.

 

[LowEloNobody]

@MaSmOrRa 's Kings & Plebians episode with Nili was great. Brought up a lot of the points people here have been talking about. I will say that Nili seems pretty delusional about the whole thing.

He claims that hosting this aoe4 tournament does not hurt aoe2 because it shouldn't affect aoe2, but in Nili's video explaining the announcement he says that he could have gone with either aoe2 or aoe4. So, the decision was not whether to host an aoe4 tournament or not, but whether to host an aoe2 tournament or an aoe4 tournament.

I do not recall Nili saying that he decided not to host an aoe2 tournament because there were other events or to balance the funding between the two games. Instead, he made the decision primarily because aoe4 is the game he is most interested in right now and that's what he felt would make the best event (presumably because he wouldn't be as interested in an aoe2 event right now and he's the one running this one). It's a bit rich to suggest that a decision like is not hurting aoe2. It's like having a plant and saying that because you're not watering it, you're not hurting it - meanwhile, you have an irrigation system set up for your new plant (aoe4).

It is what it is. Hopefully, we get some decent events for aoe2 this year. Memb confirmed BoA a while ago. I'm sure t90 will do a big one at some point this year as well.

I do think there is a bit more nuance here. Nili is claiming that AoE4 and any related events etc do not hurt AoE2, because so far, the player base of AoE2 has not dropped at all from pre-AoE4 release levels. He is correct in this claim, and the AoE2 player base is about the same if not slightly larger than Summer/Fall 2021 levels.
so basically, hosting an AoE4 event or investing in AoE4 doesn't impact AoE2. BUT this is a "do no harm" argument.
The counter argument, which I think Masmorra pushed on quite a bit, is that investing in Ao2 instead of AoE4 could improve or grow AoE2. So the two options aren't "Neutral impact on AoE2" and "Negative impact on AoE2" it's more like "Neutral impact on AoE2" and "Positive impact on AoE2".
So there is still potential losses to the AoE2 community, but only in what could have been.

 

[TheShaunPlays]

Not really an AOE4 fan and wish it was AOE2 however, it boggles my mind when people say it's a dumb move to give AOE4 this kind of money. Microsoft are raking in loads of cash, they just bought Activision for almost 70 billion, they wouldn't notice 100k on the balance sheet. Investment is a great way to grow something, do I wish this was AOE2, yes, but that's me being selfish. This 100k tournament has already gotten more marketing for AOE4 than a traditional campaign with a similar amount of investment.

Hopefully this is the shot in the arm AOE4 needs, put pressure on the devs to speed up patches, get high level players to take it seriously, convinces fans to play it after getting hyped for a tournament/if the tournament is good then playing because they just watched a great tournament for it. If that happens then hopefully I get a new game to enjoy, there isn't really a downside. When you have the kind of money Microsoft has I doubt it was a choice between 2 and 4, I'm sure there's plenty to go around for both.

 

[LowEloNobody]

When you have the kind of money Microsoft has I doubt it was a choice between 2 and 4, I'm sure there's plenty to go around for both.

I would refer you to the recent Masmorra interview (which you can watch here: Kings & Plebeians - Episode #08: Nili), in which Nili specifically says that there is "1 pot of money" that he decides to allocate across the entire Age of Empires franchise. So in a sense, every dollar that is spend on AoE4 (and AoE1, AoM, AoE online, AoE3, etc) is a dollar that cannot be spent on AoE2.

Is it selfish to want all of the dollars to be spent on AoE2? Absolutely, but it is also fair to debate and argue what the appropriate level of funding is across titles. If someone announced a $100k AoE1 or AoE3 tournament, I think most would agree that it would be a bad allocation. Many in this thread (with various levels of coherence and toxicity) are saying that AoE4 is not in a state that justifies such a significant investment.

 

[TheShaunPlays]

Possibly the most logical explanation in this thread. I second to that, money was most likely available for AOE4, that also explains commitment of AOE4 since he himself said, NAC4 plans started in September.

So there are 3 serious legal concerns here:
1- Nili knew that more money was available for AOE4 instead of AOE2 so his commitment could be biased.
2- Nili used money for his tournament, which will be broadcasted on his channel so he will benefit from it directly (not even indirectly, so this is actually quite serious issue).
3- Nili used GL headquarter which he is affiliated with, which means he can/may indirectly benefit from this arrangement. A nut-head like me can say, that explains why GL keep a top400 (optimistic) AOE4 player in a professional team.

I am literally working in tech branch of an audit company, when audit in, no matter how good our project, we are kicked out. These are really serious issues.


Microsoft is not a private company, so if you really want to open a lawsuit, you just need to buy 1 share. And you can actually win, but it will cost a fortune and since Nili will never be in US lands (unless he went poker), he might never be judged.

Curious, which laws are being broken, from what country and do those laws apply to Nili or Microsoft?

 

[LowEloNobody]

Curious, which laws are being broken, from what country and do those laws apply to Nili or Microsoft?

There are no laws being broken. Anyone saying so is quite dumb

 

[Tendo]

The counter argument, which I think Masmorra pushed on quite a bit, is that investing in Ao2 instead of AoE4 could improve or grow AoE2. So the two options aren't "Neutral impact on AoE2" and "Negative impact on AoE2" it's more like "Neutral impact on AoE2" and "Positive impact on AoE2".
So there is still potential losses to the AoE2 community, but only in what could have been.

I think the counter argument against this one would be that without AoE4 the pie(funding for all Age Tournaments) would be smaller from the getgo.
Like whether you get 1 piece of cake out of 2, or 1 piece of cake out of 3 doesn't change anything for you "technically".
I guess this is what he means with neutral impact.

 

[LowEloNobody]

I think the counter argument against this one would be that without AoE4 the pie(funding for all Age Tournaments) would be smaller from the getgo.
Like whether you get 1 piece of cake out of 2, or 1 piece of cake out of 3 doesn't change anything for you "technically".
I guess this is what he means with neutral impact.

That could also be true. If there was not another title in the Age of Empires franchise, Microsoft might be less willing to invest in the franchise as a whole. I've made this point before on this forum, but it doesn't seem to be popularly received

 

[TheShaunPlays]

I would refer you to the recent Masmorra interview (which you can watch here: Kings & Plebeians - Episode #08: Nili), in which Nili specifically says that there is "1 pot of money" that he decides to allocate across the entire Age of Empires franchise. So in a sense, every dollar that is spend on AoE4 (and AoE1, AoM, AoE online, AoE3, etc) is a dollar that cannot be spent on AoE2.

Is it selfish to want all of the dollars to be spent on AoE2? Absolutely, but it is also fair to debate and argue what the appropriate level of funding is across titles. If someone announced a $100k AoE1 or AoE3 tournament, I think most would agree that it would be a bad allocation. Many in this thread (with various levels of coherence and toxicity) are saying that AoE4 is not in a state that justifies such a significant investment.

Disclaimer: My reply take on a lot of maybes, hypotheticals and assumptions.

My point is that pool is probably big enough for both fish. We don't know what Nili's objectives in his role are specifically, maybe he needs to effectively use the prize pool to grow AOE4 (as well as other things) in which case this splash of 100k is certainly a good marketing technique. A lot of people are assuming corruption but is there anyone better in the AOE4 scene to host such a large event? I don't know much about the AOE4 scene so that's a genuine question.

I doubt the job description for Nili was along the lines of "give this money fairly to the games that have earned it based on previous performance", they're looking for a ROI, AOE4 hands down has the most potential for revenue in the short to medium term seeing as how established and matured AOE2 is as a product. Long term is another story but again, we don't know exactly what Microsoft want to achieve with the sponsorship money.

Again, I'm a huge AOE2 fan and was very disappointed to hear we weren't getting an AOE2 NAC but I think the attacks on Nili (generally not you specifically) are very biased and forgetting Microsoft is a company and might have different goals than just "make AOE2 go brrr".

 

[StupidPieceOfSheep]

in terms of funds allocations it's all good or goodish as long as hidden cup, the biggest and most viewed of all aoe tourneys, will not get less microsoft funding than nili's cup

 

[LowEloNobody]

in terms of funds allocations it's all good or goodish as long as hidden cup, the biggest and most viewed of all aoe tourneys, will not get less microsoft funding than nili's cup

Hopefully we will see in March!

 

[Springoftheking]

Microsoft's goal most likely is to promote AoE 4, and Nili as good employee try to accomplish this goal. Maybe Nili have a chance allocate more money to AoE 2 than AoE 4, but it's a bit naive that Nili would be that partisan towards AoE 2 and Microsoft would probably notice this, which wouldn't be good for Nili.

For Nili and Microsoft successful AoE 4 would be good thing, so there is anything special that they try it. I would guess that N4C will get bigger audience than NAC3. AoE 4 players and casters have enough followers for that.

But successful N4C won't remove the problems with AoE 4 as a game, so if Relic won't patch the game to better, AoE 2 will be more popular in the long term.

Microsoft is based on Redmond city in the US state Washington, so the company should be operating under the Washington state laws and the US federal laws. Microsoft legal department should have covered any legal issue about conflict of interest for Nili's role.

 

[LeoMontero]

Nili made his choice, and that is Age 4. He turned to a non proved game, which result to be a mediocre game, because it was new, what a BS. When he streams Age 4, less and less people watch him. Because Age 4 is horrible to watch.
If he must decide between money to Age 2 and Age 4, we already know what will be his decision. Its a shame because Age give to nili so much, and he is throwing all to the garbage. I think that he will be no more loved by the comunity. Check the 10 pages, no pro has made a coment, and that is because they are not happy with this decision.
Another thing, i think that he also has his honour touched, and he want that his tournament is the biggest. There are a lot of misjudments and terrible decisions that he made, a lot of errors in the last 3-4 months.
I think that he must be, unfortunatly, fired. Give the job to a person that has no interest or is not part of the organisation of tournaments, because all this is bizarre.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

After some time I have to admit that Nili's choice is the most logicial one ( to pick Aoe4 ). Goal of this tournament is I believe to encourage people to purchase the game - in all honesty whoever was to buy aoe2 DE already did that and another investment would not change much. You cannot sell skins in the Age of Empires game and Microsoft has to make profit somehow which means you have to promote the product that not everyone owns. In that case going for $ 100k aoe4 LAN tournament makes the most sense and we should not flame anyone for ignoring our favourite game - it is a niche one.

 

[LowEloNobody]

You cannot sell skins in the Age of Empires game

Watch out, devs might be reading this.

Microsoft has to make profit somehow which means you have to promote the product that not everyone owns.

I think the two recent DLC's for AoE2DE have been fairly successful, and future DLC's offer a nice revenue stream if the player base maintains its size

 

[Philippe le Bon]

Opinions are personal but...

If the 100k$ prizepool is not bested this year by an other Age of Empires II tournament, this has to be the biggest poopstain left on the AoE2 community, least since DE release.

You just don't fund the biggest amount of money ever (only beaten by Redbull Wololo 5 at 100k$, and War is Coming at 110k$) for the less popular, less played, less finished game of the two.

Let me put it straight: okay this NC4 will happen, hope AoE4 viewers have fun, I won't lie I will probably watch some even if I'm not particularly fond of AoE4.

Spoiler

Unless if it's exclusive streaming on hippo's channel, if so it's pathetic self-promotion methods, and I don't want to support such bullshit.

We have the experience to see private streaming is absolute garbage for viewers. Even RBW5 had the intelligence to make their recorded games accessible for non-English streamers, so that one can watch RBW where he likes/understands best.

BUT as this lavish news is now out, we AoE2 fans better damn EXIGE a 120k$ tournament later this year, which is only justified since we're supporting the game with the widest appeal and the most suited to tournaments (better balance).

Especially when we guys crave for YEARS for a substantial 4v4 event with varied maps.
Consider this: the time gap between The Medieval Wars 2013 and SY Nations Cup III is one year-shorter than the gap between SY Nations Cup III and today.

So there's a drought there to be taken care of.
If no 120k AoE2 tournament happen this year, or at least isn't planned this year for 2023, then I fail to see how it's not a slimy spit in the face of AoE2 fans, from the sponsors and organizers of N4C.

EDIT: Grammar — Unintentional double negative​

 

[komtan]

hmmm
seems like best (Seriously) DRAMA 2022 Award here.

 

[Kaschperili]

Nili is completely delusional. His viewer numbers on his stream are very low for quite some time now.

Even Jordan admitted that it makes no sense from a financial and chat activity standpoint to stream Aoe4 any longer.

 

[kw1k000000]

You cannot sell skins in the Age of Empires game

what are the yearly DLCs which we are all purchasing which contain 2/4 pointless civs?

 

[Tendo]

Watch out, devs might be reading this.



I think the two recent DLC's for AoE2DE have been fairly successful, and future DLC's offer a nice revenue stream if the player base maintains its size

Plz let them read this, selling skins would be 100 times better compared to even more new Civs.
If they sell skins it would affect the Game itself not at all, while releasing new Civs always breaks the game for some time.

Especially when we guys crave for YEARS for a substantial 4v4 event with varied maps.

Not sure we do.
4vs4 Meta is pretty boring on most maps, 2 flanks going archers while the pockets go cav.
No matter how much ppl hated slinging for making TG's a sling festival, atleast ECL 4vs4 games were entertaining for viewers.

Also proly the most untouched thing in terms of Civ Balance are the Team-Bonuses, I think there is so much potential to make TG's more interesting.

 

[Tranquil Dinosaur]

Guys, there is drama but there is also just bashing Nili now and the line has been crossed long ago. Keep in mind that he is still human and has done a lot for the community. At this point some of you are just being assholes.

Now, having said that, I am having troubles with my understanding that Nili just acknowledges and accepts the conflict of interest here. In this case you have to do something more to prove that funding this specific tournament is not just a decision in your best personal interest. Regardless if the event is AOE2 or AOE4 hosts of big tournaments benefit quite a lot from the viewership. Why not allocate such a prize pool to any other tournament or have someone neutral host it?

This also makes the Viper invitation look strange. I don't follow the AOE4 pro scene and perhaps Viper is indeed really, really good and deserving of an invitation. However, once again you can't ignore the fact that he is your friend and teammate. If it was another tournament with some else calling the decisions it would be perceived as far less controversial.

On the other hand, it makes sense the tournament is in AOE4. It is the new game and if it is successful it may make more profits for Microsoft. It's not even only about the profits, I guess. MS want to make games that are considered good. 100 000 USD seems like a lot of money but it's nothing compared to the development costs of such a complex product. Of course, MS would want to promote it. Nili though doesn't emphasize on this reasoning but rather on some obscure reasons that I can't even fully comprehend in order to discuss.

Does it hurt AOE2? Maybe not directly but indirectly for sure. KOTD did hurt AOE4 and the same will likely happen now in the opposite direction. My biggest problem is that Nili knows this and how the AOE2 fanbase will react to it and still decides, in his capacity of the guy in charge of funding allocation, to fund his own tournament, with a super high price pool, that he also benefits from, that is in AOE4 and not AOE2 for some poorly explained reasons, acknowledges the blatant conflict of interest and chooses to do nothing significant about it.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

clips.twitch.tv

"I allocated them and it's a conflict of interest"

So yeah, he is making the decision on how to allocate money for events

Nili himself confirmed it in latest Masmorra interview. He has mentioend this earlier as well.

Okay I see I was wrong.

 

[DracKeN]

Masmorra's interview with Nili was really well done, definitely recommended to watch if you want more information.
Also, I really didn't know that Nili has so much power regarding MS funds and I'm still shocked how bad that situation is for AoE. MS is by far the biggest sponsor of tournaments, but also the only really major one right now (with all respect to the few individual sponsors spending couple of k on tournaments).

So the situation is, that Nili controls 90%+ of tournament funds right now. Sure, there's 1st) major conflict of interests as Nili from MS is giving funds to Nili - tournament host. Ok, part of the budget is spent on Nili's events (which makes sense up to a point, 100k for 8 player tournament is over that point though).

Then there's another - 2nd) conflict of interests where Nili from MS is allocating the remaining funds between AoE IV and AoE II. Everyday it's more and more obvious that IIs overtook IVs - this isn't personal bias or feeling how good AoE IV will be in 1 year, those are pure numbers. It's less than 3 months since it's release btw. There's extremelly low chance IVs would be the more popular game in any point in the future from now on. However, Nili likes IV more now, meaning that big part of the funds are still going into this direction. Again, it would make partially sense, but so far it seems that IVs are getting far more from the remaining budget then they should given it's rapidly declining numbers. So, take another big portion of the budget and we're left with Budget for AoE II non-Nili events.

And then there's 1 more - 3rd) conflict of interests where Nili is obviously influenced by his personal preference as a player. Taking this extremelly far, we can end with 20k DM World Cup, 5k KotH, 20k DM 2v2 tournament..

I don't want this post to be critical towards Nili, he was my favourite streamer before he switched to AoE IV and I enjoyed many of his events, and I believe I will enjoy some his AoE II events in the future too. But my point is, that due to Nili's extreme power when it comes to AoE right nown + his conflicts of interests, every single tournament from now on will raise the same question, if the funding is appropriate, if it wouldn't get less or more based on the connection of organizer and Nili, if it's spent on the correct game and if the funding isn't influenced by settings that Nili likes/dislikes.

 

[wincher01]

I don't think Nili only does what he wants and that he favors AoE4 because he likes it. He has a job, part of which is probably to promote the newer game.

 

[MadeByJoe]

Masmorra's interview with Nili was really well done, definitely recommended to watch if you want more information.
Also, I really didn't know that Nili has so much power regarding MS funds and I'm still shocked how bad that situation is for AoE. MS is by far the biggest sponsor of tournaments, but also the only really major one right now (with all respect to the few individual sponsors spending couple of k on tournaments).

So the situation is, that Nili controls 90%+ of tournament funds right now. Sure, there's 1st) major conflict of interests as Nili from MS is giving funds to Nili - tournament host. Ok, part of the budget is spent on Nili's events (which makes sense up to a point, 100k for 8 player tournament is over that point though).

Then there's another - 2nd) conflict of interests where Nili from MS is allocating the remaining funds between AoE IV and AoE II. Everyday it's more and more obvious that IIs overtook IVs - this isn't personal bias or feeling how good AoE IV will be in 1 year, those are pure numbers. It's less than 3 months since it's release btw. There's extremelly low chance IVs would be the more popular game in any point in the future from now on. However, Nili likes IV more now, meaning that big part of the funds are still going into this direction. Again, it would make partially sense, but so far it seems that IVs are getting far more from the remaining budget then they should given it's rapidly declining numbers. So, take another big portion of the budget and we're left with Budget for AoE II non-Nili events.

And then there's 1 more - 3rd) conflict of interests where Nili is obviously influenced by his personal preference as a player. Taking this extremelly far, we can end with 20k DM World Cup, 5k KotH, 20k DM 2v2 tournament..

I don't want this post to be critical towards Nili, he was my favourite streamer before he switched to AoE IV and I enjoyed many of his events, and I believe I will enjoy some his AoE II events in the future too. But my point is, that due to Nili's extreme power when it comes to AoE right nown + his conflicts of interests, every single tournament from now on will raise the same question, if the funding is appropriate, if it wouldn't get less or more based on the connection of organizer and Nili, if it's spent on the correct game and if the funding isn't influenced by settings that Nili likes/dislikes.

Tournaments are marketing for the games. AoE4 is still new and as you said, the numbers don't look great. So it does make sense to give it more money than AoE2, trying to improve those numbers. Only up to a certain point of course, if it's a dead game after 5 years you don't have to keep it on life support with inflated prizepools.

Maybe for the future it shouldn't be Nili giving himself the money for his own events but someone else (higher up?). It seems a lot of the controversy could be dodged this way and only the salt of it not being AoE2 but AoE4 would remain.