New civ concept: The Swedes

[JayGould]

I have spent a lot of time working on some different civilization concepts during the last few weeks. Personally I am of the opinion that if more civs are to be released, they should be have some unique mechanisms (like that of the Gurjara mill mechanism). So those are the kinds of things I have tried implementing into these civilizations.

I hereby present to you the first of these civilizations...

The Swedes

Why?: While you could argue the Swedes are already represented by the Vikings (and the Goths?), I personally think Scandinavia has enough variety to sustain multiple civilizations. The Swedes are an old ethnic group/civilization, that today only makes up about a quarter of the modern nation called Sweden (the others beings Goths, Scanians and Lapps). A land with abundant forests. The old English saga Beowulf talks about the (civil) wars in the 12th century between the Visigoths and the Swedes, which was won by the Swedes, ultimately creating the nation state.

The Swedes were both traders and raiders, and were originally called the Varangians (and as some of them settled in the East, those people were called the Rus). They conquered and founded Russia and Ukraine, and the slaves they captured in these lands were sold both at home in Upsala and in Constantinople (a city they later conquered as well).

The Swedes were known as fierce warriors, and due to their diets (sustaining mainly on hunting, fishing and berry gathering instead of farming like in the Southern parts of Europe), they towered over other Europeans at the time. The Roman Emperors were so impressed by them that for centuries they were hired as the emperor's personal bodyguards.

Later on (in the 16th century, the "Imperial Age"), the Swedish king Gustavus Vasa enacted the world's first national draft policy, and looting for personal gain, raping or murdering in conquered lands would give a soldier the death penalty. Instead the soldiers looted on behalf of the king, who used the proceeeds to improve the nation's economy.

Swedes: Infantry & Naval Civilization

Civ bonus #1: Fishing ships cost -33% (50w vs 75w)
Civ bonus #2: Re-seeding farms costs -75% (15w vs 60w)
Civ bonus #3: Destroying enemy buildings generate gold (50% of a building’s wood cost in Dark Age and Feudal Age, 40% in Castle Age, 30% in Imperial Age)
Civ bonus #4: Infantry +2 attack (starting in Feudal Age)
Team Bonus: Barrack technologies and upgrades are researched 50% faster (Supplies: 35 to 23 sec, Man-at-Arms upg: 40 sec to 27 sec, etc)

Unique Units

Varangian Guard (Strong infantry unit, trained at castles)
Raider (Trash unit. Replacement for Light Cav/Hussar. Trained at Barracks).

Tech tree

Missing units: Hussar, Paladin, Battle Elephant, Camel Rider, Siege Onager, Bombard Cannon, Hand Cannoneer
Missing technologies: Ring Archer Armor, Thumb Ring, Parthian Tactics, Plate Barding Armor, Blast Furnace, Husbandry, Bloodlines, Atonement (Monastery)

Unique techs and detailed unit breakdowns:

UT Castle (Castle Age, “Upland Steel”): Skirmishers +1 attack, 20% faster rate of fire (225w, 175g)
UT Castle (Imperial Age, “National Recruit”): Infantry units receive +40% HP (450f, 475g)

UU Castle: Varangian Guard. Well armored, elite infantry unit. Good in melee combat and resistant to archer fire. Weak against Hand Cannoneers. Upg cost: 975f, 750g. Creation time: 15 (12) seconds. Upg time: 125 sec
Cost: 70f, 45g
HP: 75 (80) - (112 fully upgraded)
Attack: 13 (16) - (20 fully upgraded)
Attack bonuses: +3 (4) vs Standard Building, +3 (4) vs Eagle Warrior
Armor: 3 / 2 (4 / 4) - (7 / 8 fully upgraded)
Rate of fire: 2.0
Speed: 0.85 - (0.935 fully upgraded)

Castle Age:
VS Upg Raider: Kills in 4 hits. Killed in 19. +375%
VS Long Swordsman: Kills in 5 hits. Killed in 13. +160%
VS Berserk: Kills in 5 hits. Killed in 9. +80%
VS Knight: Kills in 10 hits. Killed in 11, 19.8s. -1%
VS Samurai: Kills in 5 hits. Killed in 5, 7.25s. -27.5%
VS Crossbow: Takes 25 arrows. -37.5% vs Knight

Imperial Age:
VS Elite Eagle (Mayan): 5. Killed in 19. +280%
VS Elite Raider: 5. Killed in 16, 30.4s. +204%
VS Champion: 5. Killed in 12. +140%
VS Elite Berserk: 5. Killed in 11. +120%
VS Cavalier: 10. Killed in 13, 23.4s. +17%
VS Elite Jaguar Warrior: 5. Killed in 5. +0%
VS Elite Samurai: 5. Killed in 6, 8.7s. -13%
VS Paladin: 12. Killed in 11, 20.9s. -13% (Paladin is +15%)
VS Elite Teutonic Knight: 15. Killed in 8. -47% (TK is +87.5%)
VS Arb: 56 arrows. +124% vs TK. +300% vs Champ. -8% vs Paladin
Non-Elite vs Cavalier: 12. Killed in 11, 19.8s. -17.5% (Cav: +21%)
Non-Elite vs Paladin: 15. Killed in 9, 17.1s. -47% (Paladin: +75%)
Non-Elite vs Arbelaster: 27 arrows. -52% vs Elite (Elite: +107%)

Conclusion: Similar to a Teutonic Knight, but at most half as good in melee (needs two Varangian Guards to beat one Teutonic Knight, and versus units with less attack like Cavalier, the TK is 3x as good), but takes more than twice the amount of arrows from Arbelasters (56 vs 25). In terms of speed (0.85) it is in-between a Teutonic Knight (0.8) and a Champion (0.9). Upgrading to the Elite version takes longer than upgrading Knights to Cavaliers (125 vs 100 seconds). In terms of gold cost, it is the most expensive infantry unit in the game (+5 vs Teutonic Knights).

UU Barracks: Raider (Feudal Age): - 65 food
Creation time: 26 seconds
HP: 40
Attack: 4 (7)
Attack bonuses: +2 vs Villagers, +3 vs Monks
Speed: 1
Rate of fire: 2.0
Armor: 0 / 2 (1 / 3)
Armor class: Infantry, Raider, Unique Unit
Armor class “Raider”: Takes +2 bonus damage vs Eagle Warriors, +3 from Elite Eagle Warriors

VS Archer: 20 arrows (Man-at-Arm: 15. Scout: 22)
VS Militia: 7, 14s. Killed in 10, 20s. +43%
VS Swedish Militia: 7. Killed in 7. +0%
VS Scout (no BL): 8. Killed in 8. +0%
VS Man-at-Arm: 9, 18s. Killed in 7, 14s. -25% (Man-at-Arms: +28.5%)
VS Scout: 11, 22s. Killed in 8, 16s. -27% (Scout: +37.5%)
VS Swedish Man-at-Arms: 9. Killed in 5. -44% (Man-at-Arms: +80%)

Upgraded Raider (Castle Age). Upg cost: 130f, 125g. Upg time: 60s.
Creation time: 26 seconds
HP: 50
Attack: 7 (11)
Speed: 1.1 (1.21)
Rate of fire: 2.0
Armor: 0 / 3 (2 / 5)
Attack bonuses: +4 vs Villagers, +4 vs Monks

VS Pikeman (Castle): Kills in 7, 14s. Killed in 10, 30s. +114%
VS Halb (Imp, with HP UT): Kills in 8, 16s. Killed in 10, 30s. +87.5%
VS Villager: Kills in 3, 6s. Light Cav kills in 4, 8s. +33%
VS Light Cav (no BL): 7. Killed in 8. +14%
VS Light Cav: Kills in 9, 18s. Killed in 8, 16s. -11%
VS Eagle Warrior: Kills in 7, 14s. Killed in 6, 12s. -14%
VS Longsword: Kills in 8, 16s. Killed in 6, 12s. -25% (Long: +33%)
VS Swe Longsword: Kills in 8, 16s. Killed in 5, 10s. -37.5% (Lo: +60%)
VS Knight: Kills in 18, 36s. Killed in 5, 9s. -75% (Knight: +300%)
VS Crossbow: 25 arrows. Light Cav: 27 (-7%). Longsword: 15 (+67%). Eagle Warrior: 28 arrows (-11%).
- Its like a Light Cav but slower (1.1 vs 1.5), -19% cheaper and takes no bonus damage from Pikes. Knights, Long Swordsmen or Crossbow are the best counters.

Elite Raider (Imperial Age). Upg cost: 800f, 750g. Upg time: 90s
Upgrade to get +3 attack, +14% speed and more bonus damage (+1 vs Buildings, +3 vs Villagers, +4 vs Monks).
HP: 50 (70)
Attack: 10 (14)
Speed: 1.25 (1.372)
Rate of fire: 2.0
Armor: 0 / 3 (3 / 7)
Attack bonuses: +1 vs Buildings, +7 vs Villagers, +8 vs Monks
Creation time: 22 seconds

VS Halberdier: 6, 12s. Killed in 10, 30s. +150%
VS Villager: 2, 4s. Hussar: 4, 7.6s. (+90%). Paladin: 3, 5.7s. (+42.5%)
VS Upgraded Raider: 7, 14s. Killed in 9, 18s. +28.5%
VS Light Cav: 8, 16s. Killed in 9, 18s. +12.5%
VS Elite Huskarl: 6. Killed in 6, 12s. +0%
VS Two-Handed Swordsman: 6 Killed in 6, 12s. +0%
VS Inca Elite Eagle: 6. Killed in 6, 12s. +0%
VS Hussar: 9, 18s. Killed in 9, 17.1s. -5%
VS Helvetian Mercenary (Swiss UU): 7, 14. Killed in 4, 12.8s. -9%
VS Aztec Eagle: 6. Killed in 5, 10s. -17%
VS Bulgarian Hussar: 9, 18s. Killed in 9, 12.9s. -28%
VS Champion: 7, 14s. Killed in 5, 10s. -29% (Champion: +40%)
VS Mayan Eagle: 10. Killed in 6, 12s. -40% (Eagle: +67%)
VS Berserk: Kills in 9, 18s. Killed in 5, 10s. -44% (Berserk: +80%)
VS Cavalier: 16, 32s. Killed in 6, 10.8s. -65% (Cavalier: +196%)
VS Samurai: 8, 16s. Killed in 3, 4.35s. -73% (Samurai: +268%)
VS Paladin: 20, 40s. Killed in 5, 9.5s. -76% (Paladin: +321%)
VS Arbelaster: 24 arrows. Hussar: 24 (+0%). Mayan Eagle: 50 (-52%). Elite Huskarl: 70 (-66%)

For reference:
Elite Eagle Warrior (Mayan):
VS Arbelaster: 50 arrows. (+108% vs Elite Raider)
VS Hussar: 7. Killed in 13, 24.7s. +76%
VS Cavalier: 12. Killed in 8, 14.4s. -40% (Cavalier: +67%)
VS Paladin: 15. Killed in 7, 13.3s. -56% (Paladin: +126%)

Hussar:
VS Huskarl: 8, 15.2s. Killed in 8, 16s. +5%
VS Inca Eagle: 9, 17.1s. Killed in 7, 14s. -18% (Eagle: +22%)
VS Champion: 10, 19s. Killed in 7, 14s. -26.5% (Champion: +36%)
VS Cavalier: 24, 45.6s. Killed in 8, 14.4s. -68.5% (Cavalier: +217%)
VS Paladin: 30. Killed in 7. -77% (Paladin: +329%)

Conclusion: A step behind Eagle Scout and Eagle Warrior in Feudal Age and Castle Age (except against Men-at-Arms/Long Swordsmen), and considerably worse both against cavalry and against archer fire in Imperial Age. However against infantry and even in 1vs1 fights the Elite Raider trades cost effectively. In its Elite version, it is comparable to a Hussar in melee fights (just about loses in 1vs1) as well as in terms of archer resistance. And while being considerably slower, it costs -19% food.

Some big benefits over the Hussar aside from cost is that it isn’t countered by Spearmen, does a little bit better against Eagle Warriors (although has a harder time catching up due to slower speed), and it takes down buildings faster. It also kills villagers faster/in less hits. However it takes 80% longer (90 vs 50 seconds) to upgrade to Elite Raider than it does from Light Cavalry to Hussar. The upgrade is also more expensive (+300 food, +150 gold). It also needs the Imperial Age unique technology from a Castle that costs 450 food, 475 gold.

Castle Age Unique Technology (Skirmishers gain +1 Attack & 20% faster attack speed. Rate of fire: 2.5 instead of 3.0):
VS Teutonic Knight: Kills in 50, 125s (vs 100, 300s), +140%
VS Hussar: Kills in 48, 120s (vs 95, 285s), +137.5%
VS Champion: Kills in 24, 60s (vs 35, 105s), +75%
VS Samurai: Kills in 27 (vs 40), +48%
VS Hand Cannoneer: Kills in 6, 15s (vs 7, 21s), +40%
VS Arbelaster: 6, 15s. Killed in 9, 15.3s. +2%
VS Elite Skirmisher (generic): 12, 30s. Killed in 9, 27s. -10%
Generic VS Arb: 7, 21s. Killed in 18, 30.6s. +46%
Arbelaster vs Champion: 14, 23.8s. +152% vs Swe Skirm

Conclusion: Still considerably worse than generic E-Skirmishers against Arbelasters and E-Skirmishers in Imperial Age, due to missing the final armor upgrade. However it is better against most other units from the back line when it doesn’t have to engage in direct conflict or take any damage itself. It is also better than generic in Castle Age.

Imperial Age Unique Technology (+40% HP to infantry):
Varangian Guard: 112 HP (takes 56 arrows from Arb. -7% vs Paladin)
Champion: 98 HP (takes 20 arrows from FU Arbs. +43% vs generic)
Halberdier: 84 HP (takes 10 arrows from FU Arbs. +43% vs generic)
Elite Raider: 70 HP (takes 24 arrows. +0% vs Hussar)

Champ vs E.Raider: Kills in 5, 10s. Killed in 10, 19s. +90%
Champ vs Bulgarian Hussar: Kills in 7. Killed in 14, 20s. +43%
Champ vs Generic Champ: Kills in 6. Killed in 8. +33%
Champ vs Elite Berserk: Kills in 7. Killed in 7, 14s. +0%
Champ vs Aztec Champ: 6. Killed in 6. +0%
Champ vs Japanese Champ: Kills in 6, 12s. Killed in 8, 11.6s. -3.4%
Champ vs Elite Samurai: Kills in 7, 14s. Killed in 9, 13.05s. -7%
Champ vs Cavalier: 12. Killed in 9, 16.2s. -37.5% (Cav: +48%)
Champ vs Paladin: 15, 30s.. Killed in 7, 13.3s. -56% (Pala: +126%)
Champ vs Arbelaster: 20 arrows. (+43% vs Generic. -17% vs Hussar)

Conclusion: About equal or a tiny bit worse than Japanese and Aztec Champions in melee fights, but more resistant to archer fire (+43% against Arbelasters). Overall this likely makes the Swedish Champions (and Halberdiers) the best/most well rounded in the game.

Overview:

Good units:
- Infantry (Varangian Guard, Elite Raiders, Champions, Halberdiers)
- Ships (Has every unit and upgrade)
Questionable units:
- Skirmishers (Elite Skirmishers has +1 atk and +20% attack rate but misses Thumb Ring and last armor upgrade)
- Archers (No Thumb Ring and no final armor upgrade. But does have both Arbelaster and Bracer)
- Siege (Siege Ram but no Siege Onager or Bombard Cannon)
- Monks (misses a few good upgrades/techs)
Bad units:
- Cavalry (Cavalier, Light Cavalry - no Imp upgrades or Bloodlines)
- Cavalry Archers (No Thumb Ring, Bloodlines, Husbandry or Ring Archer Armor)
- Gunpowder (No Hand Cannoneers)

Imperial Age unit comps:
1. Arbelasters + Halbs + Champions/Elite Raiders
2. Elite Skirmishers + Varangian Guards
3. Varangian Guards + Halbs/Elite Raiders

TG Role/Rating: Since the Swedes are mainly an infantry civilization, they do not fit perfectly into any of the traditional (cav/archer) roles in a 3vs3 Arabia game. However, on certain maps such as water or hybrid maps (Scandinavia, Nomad, Four Lakes etc) their fish bonus can help them immensely, either as a booming pocket or an aggressive flank. Also in more “boomy” games on closed maps (even without water) they can be good due to their very strong Halberdiers, Champions and Varangian Guards (unique unit). Or they could make Elite Raiders (second unique unit) + Halbs and send all of their excess gold to one of their teammates. Their civilization bonus of cheaper re-seeding farm costs help them save a lot of wood in Castle Age, which can help with Crossbow production if they play as a flank. Access to Bombard Towers is also a plus. Rating: B+

 

[JayGould]

Let me know your thoughts.

Will post my second civ concept tomorrow or Sunday, The Swiss.

 

[Nadia]

I like this concept, seeing as they split up Indians I see no reason they can't do it with the Vikings too. Maybe leaving the original Vikings with Norwegians, much like the old Indians are now Hindustanis. Then a new civ for Swedes, like your example here and Danes and maybe even Finns.

I really like that you compared your new units to ones we're already familiar with, so that we can't just dismiss them as being way OP as many civ nerds tend to make them.

This is great! hope people agree

 

[Progeusz]

The Swedes were known as fierce warriors, and due to their diets (sustaining mainly on hunting, fishing and berry gathering instead of farming like in the Southern parts of Europe), they towered over other Europeans at the time.

Civ bonus #2: Re-seeding farms costs -75% (15w vs 60w)

This makes no sense. Swedes stood out specifically because they didn't farm unlike other nations so you give them amazing farming bonus? Not to mention such huge discount on reseeding means that horse collar and heavy plow are useless and civ effectively saves a lot of resources by not researching those upgrades.

Everything else sounds great and i appreciate the detailed comparisons to other units.

 

[Meandor]

1. We don't need more civs.
2. IF you have to introduce a scandinavian civ in a game that mainly are focused around the high middle ages the Danes are first on that list (I say this as a swede).
3. Your historical description is dubious.

 

[JayGould]

This makes no sense. Swedes stood out specifically because they didn't farm unlike other nations so you give them amazing farming bonus? Not to mention such huge discount on reseeding means that horse collar and heavy plow are useless and civ effectively saves a lot of resources by not researching those upgrades.

Everything else sounds great and i appreciate the detailed comparisons to other units.

Yes, I thought about this too. I looked at it more like a wood bonus, since it wouldn't increase the actual gathering rate and putting down new farms would still cost the same as with any other civilization.

Since this civ's units are quite food heavy, it would likely need a lot of farmers (whether historically accurate or not, farms are the only way to gather food in this game after the initial sheep and hunts run out). So this bonus could allow them to have a few less villagers on wood and instead having them on farms.

I tried thinking of a direct wood bonus but I couldn't think of a good one, since a lot of possibilites are already taken (Burmese: Upgrades are free, Vietnamese: Upgrades cost no wood, Celts: Work rate +15%, Japanese: Lumbercamps cost -50%, etc).

Maybe they could get cheaper Barracks instead (135 wood instead of 175 to build, for example). Or just cheaper military buildings overall. I feel they should have some kind of wood bonus at least, due to their land's geography (lots of forests).

 

[Instinctz]

Civ bonus #1: Fishing ships cost -33% (50w vs 75w)

this is literally italians bonus but twice as good.

Civ bonus #2: Re-seeding farms costs -75% (15w vs 60w)

teutons bonus but better.

Civ bonus #4: Infantry +2 attack (starting in Feudal Age)

burmese want their bonus back.

Team Bonus: Barrack technologies and upgrades are researched 50% faster (Supplies: 35 to 23 sec, Man-at-Arms upg: 40 sec to 27 sec, etc)

pretty sure this would create huge balance issues with some civs (dravidians, Goths, etc).

UT Castle (Imperial Age, “National Recruit”): Infantry units receive +40% HP (450f, 475g)

this is quite cheap for the effect it provides. (Champions gain 28 HP, Halbs 24 HP, etc).

 

[IvIaximus]

Lmao, where did you get your history lessons?

 

[Instinctz]

Yes, I thought about this too. I looked at it more like a wood bonus, since it wouldn't increase the actual gathering rate and putting down new farms would still cost the same as with any other civilization.

I tried thinking of a direct wood bonus but I couldn't think of a good one, since a lot of possibilites are already taken (Burmese: Upgrades are free, Vietnamese: Upgrades cost no wood, Celts: Work rate +15%, Japanese: Lumbercamps cost -50%, etc).

you could always give them longer lasting trees. that's a wood bonus.

 

[Nadia]

Some bonuses that may compliment the Civ Identity better

* Once castle age Crossbowmen can be made from TCs
Burgundians can make Flemish Militia from them so why not
Why: because Swedish peasants armed with Skåne lockbows (a very simple crossbow that any peasant could afford/make) played an important role fighting more organised Central-European style Danes.

* Wood lasts 40% longer
This bonus may not sound like much but will save you a lot of wood making lumber camps and can get away with poorer wood lines which is huge where wood is more scarce, also a big naval bonus.
Why: because Swedes were and still are known for their forestry and quality axes. while Denmark had to trade grain for wood with Norway in order to build ships, Sweden had no such problems having it in abundance.
And like you say, this being a food heavy civ they need more food, and having a wood bonus is in indirect support for that.

* Your 3rd bonus sounded good to me initially and thought maybe just a lesser percentage would balance it, seeing 100 gold for a siege workshop is quite a lot, thinking you could rack up gold way too easily playing maps like arena, but ultimately people would resort to deleting their buildings just before being destroyed as if they were being converted.
So a bonus that could replace this but have a similar effect is making it more similar to the Keshik that generates gold when dealing damage to units, using that same mechanism but when dealing damage to buildings.
Why: I think this is fairly self-explanatory to most, but Swedes were renown looters.

* Infantry +2 attack is a tad too much, Burmese and Japanese destroy buildings ridiculously fast as it is, there'd be no way of walling them out and would force a archer counter 100% of the time (which would be too predictable by adding skirms immediately with zero exploration intel), scouts and other maa having no chance.
maybe if you only have it for spearmen-line? that doesn't sound too crazy.


* Team bonus seems fine!

The UT Castle bonus seem to already conflict with Dravidians (regular bonus: faster fire rate) and Aztecs (Castle UT: +1 attack and range)
But I like the idea of Swedes having a bonus for their Skirmishers, as like the Aztecs, Atlatls (the tech that Aztecs get) were used in Europe too to hunt thicker skinned moose, which were considerably harder to hunt with bow and arrows of the time. And Sweden probably has more moose now as then, than anywhere else in Europe.
It is hard to think of a bonuses we could give their skirms that wouldn't conflict with other civs.
Perhaps Skirmishers could get a melee option where they deal just 1 more damage, obviously removing their minimum range when in melee mode.
With this I believe it will still be most beneficial to use them for their intended purpose, only making it viable when attacked by eagles or cavalry, not to have 20 of them just completely die to a few hussars as is normally the case

The UT Imperial bonus this I feel is too similar to Vikings and even stronger, maybe something more unique?
With the new civs we are seeing a lot of new mechanics being implemented, I am sure we could come up with something creative here, maybe for the UU?
Like giving them the ability to garrison war ships, or a rechargeable ''charge'' or ''war cry'', I suspect if they make a Swedes civ and redo Vikings as Norwegians they could give Berserkers the latter, or a rechargeable axe throw.

So many cool new options to think of here

 

[Paint]

I think we definitely need another Baltic civ we only have Teutons, Vikings, Poles, Lithuanians and Slavs.

 

[Russeljones]

Really impressed with the details.

A sort of noob question [in two parts], as I am an inexperienced player: how would the Raider's creation speed compare with that of the Hussar line? Wouldn't the creation speed be a mechanism to compensate for what the Raider lacks in movement speed?