NAC3 vs N4C in numbers

[bdod6]

This would be a huge gamble, because you could end up with two mediocre games or even only one mediocre game and a dead one. In the short term, yeah, it would make sense for them, because AOE4 would sell a bit more. But in the long term, the Age of Empires franchise as a whole would be hurt, because of the declining interest in its "ace", which has always been AOE2 since it came out. Sure, AOE2 wouldn't die, but it'd be back to like 2017 in terms of viewership and sponsor interest, which would be a huge farewell to events like Red Bull Wololo and maybe even Hidden Cup and King of the Desert. You may not really care about AOE2 (which is legit, don't get me wrong. I personally have zero interest in AOE4), but let's agree that "the health of the overall AoE franchise" can't depend on pushing the latest one while ignoring the most successful one for some time, hoping that they'll become equally successful in the long term.

I don't really think anyone can forecast what will be best for the overall franchise at this point, so I wouldn't agree that focusing more on AoE4 is the wrong choice. What do you think Microsoft's main key performance indicator is here? My guess would be Game Pass numbers, and AoE4 has shown more potential for Game Pass sales than AoE2. Maintaining interest for Game Pass players is considerably more profitable than steam sales, so I would hardly consider AoE2 to be the "ace" at this point. Server and development costs for AoE2 are probably only offset by DLCs.

AoE2 has survived 20 years and maintained a stable player base, so I would say it's a pretty low-risk gamble to redirect some resources toward your new RTS game than it is fund extra tournaments for AoE2, which doesn't seem to impact player numbers on steam at all. AoE2 tournaments like HC and KOTD are part of the livelihoods of T90 and Memb, so I doubt they will be going away in the future regardless of what MS chooses to do.

Wow, I'm amazed of how people on this forum think that swinging some hypothetical money will somehow give them the higher moral ground. If you want to spend you money supporting AOE4, you're literally free to. There's a lot of AOE2 community members who have spent their money for years supporting channels, tournaments and even showmatches, but I hardly see any of them here saying anything about it. If this community doesn't interest you, it's fine, you're free to support another one.

I think I contributed about $50k to AoE2 casters, players, and showmatches in 2021, so it's not really hypothetical. I'm not looking for a moral high ground. I'm saying the reaction of (some of) the AoE2 community to another game in the franchise has been off-putting, so it's unlikely I would want to contribute more to it in the future. If you're concerned about future sponsorships for AoE2, maybe you should reflect on how toxic community reactions can also negatively impact the health of future events.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

I think I contributed about $50k to AoE2 casters, players, and showmatches in 2021, so it's not really hypothetical. I'm not looking for a moral high ground. I'm saying the reaction of (some of) the AoE2 community to another game in the franchise has been off-putting, so it's unlikely I would want to contribute more to it in the future. If you're concerned about future sponsorships for AoE2, maybe you should reflect on how toxic community reactions can also negatively impact the health of future events.

This logic is confusing. You are bothered by a small minority reacting in a way you perceive as toxic so you look to punish everyone?

 

[robo]

Its MS giving the budget after all, so they still cant coexist in that sense.

Worlds Edge does not have the same $450 billion net worth/budget as Microsoft...

There isn't some unlimited pool of money just sitting there waiting to be spent, otherwise, we likely would have had $million tournaments already

 

[HongeyKong]

Worlds Edge does not have the same $450 billion net worth/budget as Microsoft...

There isn't some unlimited pool of money just sitting there waiting to be spent, otherwise, we likely would have had $million tournaments already

No doubt. Theres only 7 billion people on planet earth, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, 60 minutes an hour, 60 seconds a minute. Every dollar / second someone spent on other things, every dollar / second of playtime aoe2 is losing. Aoe2 can never coexist with the rest of the world in that sense. Changing tourney coordinator / game developer / publisher wouldnt change that.

 

[robo]

No doubt. Theres only 7 billion people on planet earth, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, 60 minutes an hour, 60 seconds a minute. Every dollar / second someone spent on other things, every dollar / second of playtime aoe2 is losing. Aoe2 can never coexist with the rest of the world in that sense. Changing tourney coordinator / game developer / publisher wouldnt change that.

I'll be honest, I don't understand what you're trying to say here 11

 

[HongeyKong]

I'll be honest, I don't understand what you're trying to say here 11

1) I find "two games cant coexist" stupid.
2) But lets say the statement stands, changing coordinator wont change it, as they are still funded by MS. Even if its funded by someone else, that still wont change it, as in theory that party can still spend it on something else.

EDIT: To make it more clear, resources are scarce as u said, if he agrees that both games cant coexist in current state, they cant coexist even changes have been made either.

 

[robo]

1) I find "two games cant coexist" stupid.
2) But lets say the statement stands, changing coordinator wont change it, as they are still funded by MS. Even if its funded by someone else, that still wont change it, as in theory that party can still spend it on something else.

EDIT: To make it more clear, resources are scarce as u said, if he agrees that both games cant coexist in current state, they cant coexist even changes have been made either.

Gotcha, fully agreed, thanks for the clarification!

 

[bdod6]

This logic is confusing. You are bothered by a small minority reacting in a way you perceive as toxic so you look to punish everyone?

My impression is that a substantial number of AoE2 players are actively rooting for AoE4 to fail because that would mean more resources for their preferred game, whether it's more pros streaming AoE2 or more money for tournaments. I find that kind zero-sum thinking to be unappealing and harmful. Instead of fighting over the biggest slice of the pie, we should be trying to grow the pie bigger for everyone.

My impression is probably based on a vocal minority, but it's enough that I would consider it to be impactful.

 

[LowEloNobody]

My impression is that a substantial number of AoE2 players are actively rooting for AoE4 to fail because that would mean more resources for their preferred game, whether it's more pros streaming AoE2 or more money for tournaments. I find that kind zero-sum thinking to be unappealing and harmful. Instead of fighting over the biggest slice of the pie, we should be trying to grow the pie bigger for everyone.

My impression is probably based on a vocal minority, but it's enough that I would consider it to be impactful.

To be fair, it's like 12 grumpy dudes on AoEZone and 2 dudes on Twitter.

 

[Lord Bolton]

My impression is that a substantial number of AoE2 players are actively rooting for AoE4 to fail because that would mean more resources for their preferred game, whether it's more pros streaming AoE2 or more money for tournaments. I find that kind zero-sum thinking to be unappealing and harmful. Instead of fighting over the biggest slice of the pie, we should be trying to grow the pie bigger for everyone.

My impression is probably based on a vocal minority, but it's enough to put me off from contributing to AoE2 further.

You are right on this. I have been seeing this kinda behavior in my aoe2 community discords, aoe2 subreddit, ofc aoezone. I honestly feel the reaction from community could have been better if leading community members of aoe2 had good/neutral reactions toward it. Most of them had been doomposting/shittalking the game when it released. Honorable mention: memb, he streamed aoe4 for a week on release and literally every minute , he's been trashing it and saying this game success will lead to death of aoe2. I asked him in pm to be neutral and if he doesnt like the game, dont stream it. He replied that he doesnt really care about aoe4 design but he wanted aoe4 to fail so kotd gets its attention.

 

[akku]

My impression is that a substantial number of AoE2 players are actively rooting for AoE4 to fail because that would mean more resources for their preferred game, whether it's more pros streaming AoE2 or more money for tournaments. I find that kind zero-sum thinking to be unappealing and harmful. Instead of fighting over the biggest slice of the pie, we should be trying to grow the pie bigger for everyone.

My impression is probably based on a vocal minority, but it's enough that I would consider it to be impactful.

You're talking of hypotheticals and ideal case scenarios. What is the reality however?

1. It is that aoe2 pro scene has been completely starved from both funding and roadmap. This was inspite of promises a roadmap and more things to come in the future

2. What has happened to the pie? It didn't grow, it didn't even stay the same size, it shrunk!
Irrespective of your opinion on all this, aoe4 didn't click with a sizable portion (I'd argue majority) of the people. The metrics are proof of this. In pretty much every stat, aoe2 surpasses aoe4. And this is just a few months since the release of aoe4.
Throwing more money into aoe4 and starving aoe2 didn't solve this. What it did was kill the momentum and enthusiasm of aoe2 pro scene, and people have dropped off the aoe franchise all together. The aoe2 viewers are getting less action and they've turned off, the aoe2 pros don't see any roadmap and are tuning off.

3. The tournament coordinator for entire AOE franchise has blatantly chosen sides here. It would be one thing if he was just coordinator for AOE4, but that isn't the case.


AOE4 has actively damaged aoe2 and aoe franchise as a whole.
So, sorry if not everyone is on board with rooting for AOE4 !

The thing is, 99% (my headcanon numbers) of the people complaining here wouldn't have done so if aoe4 was an actual good game. Or even if it wasn't, but we were getting SOMETHING in aoe2. We're 5 months after KOTD, and we got 1 S tier tournament, and 0 major tournaments (yeah WWC wasn't it)
I would be playing and watching AOE4 if it was good, and wouldn't care less if AOE4 was bad but we were still getting funding for AOE2. Neither of which are the case.

 

[Min]

My impression is that a substantial number of AoE2 players are actively rooting for AoE4 to fail because that would mean more resources for their preferred game, whether it's more pros streaming AoE2 or more money for tournaments. I find that kind zero-sum thinking to be unappealing and harmful. Instead of fighting over the biggest slice of the pie, we should be trying to grow the pie bigger for everyone.

My impression is probably based on a vocal minority, but it's enough that I would consider it to be impactful.

So, you know there is a vocal minority "rooting for AoE4 to fail" but you choose to extrapolate that and believe its a "majority" of the AoE2 players (edited from original community because you said players). This is what is commonly referred to as bigotry and/or prejudice.

 

[robo]

So, you know there is a vocal minority "rooting for AoE4 to fail" but you choose to extrapolate that and believe its a "majority" of the AoE2 community. This is what is commonly referred to as bigotry and/or prejudice.

If a number of people are happy to stand by and watch it happen (and even support those posts with likes/reactions) are they not giving their approval, to some degree, of what is said?

 

[Rorarimbo]

@bdod6 you do you amigo. You earned your money you can spend it as you wish. On the other hand, as I see it the debate is pretty clear. A certain part of AoE2 community is concerned about the direction their favorite game is going. I do not mind AoE4 as much as I do not mind SC2. The problem is being in the same franchise AoE2 and Ao4 are competing for the same resources. Neither game is big enough or looks to become big enough any time soon to attract enough corporate sponsors outside of MS. So MS funding is the largest source of tournament funding for both games - by far. And as Nili himself has said there is one pool of money for all games in the franchise.

So, this means the two games are naturally competing. Unfortunately there is no way around that at least at the moment. I believe everyone would be happy if both games were just thriving and doing better in terms of all sorts of metrics. But the reality is different. Ever since AoE4 is out the AoE2 has suffered from inactive top of the ladder, pro player leaving, switching or just becoming inactive. There is a certain split in the community if you like. We like it or not AoE4 has been the single major cause of the decline in AoE2 competitive scene.

And Yes it is normal for a company to stand behind its newest and most expensive product. And again this is part of the problem. MS is actually in a position to starve AoE2 from major competitions in favor of AoE4, also encouraging key players to make the switch. On top of that, believe it or not, AoE4 has proven to be a lacking product, again proven by all sort of metrics. The last proof is N4C lack of viewers and shockingly no interest from other streamers. If we were to have AoE2 suppressed and replaced at least if could have been for something better. Some people like to think AoE2 players are just "old and grumpy" and they do not want change. The fact is if AoE4 was a fantastic game most if not all of us would have been playing it right now and this conversation wouldn't even exist.

Now there is also the fact that the Definitive editions were always also part of marketing for AoE4. This was bound to happen. On the other hand AoE4 wouldn't even be considered if not for the success , longevity, and slow but steady success of AoE2.

What was/ is the solution then. You know MS likes to say they support, want to see both games thrive. Well just do it than. There should have been a roadmap? Do not fund and support fewer tournaments compared to 2021, fund and support more and bigger ones. Fix what needs to be fixed in both AoE2 and AoE4 and then Maybe both games get big enough to go each their own separate ways. But do not "starve" one in favor of the other because it is "normal" to support the new one more.

I really do not think it is hard to comprehend. This has been explained by many people, many times ( maybe way too often thus the impression of bad manners). Just do not take these things at heart as they are (almost) never directed at you or smbd else personally.

 

[Min]

If a number of people are happy to stand by and watch it happen (and even support those posts with likes/reactions) are they not giving their approval, to some degree, of what is said?

You will have to clarify. Allow what to happen exactly? People liking a post usually gives approval, yes and? Are you saying there are only a minority writing the posts but a majority of the player base likes them and its therefore not bigotry because actually a majority of AOE2 player base agrees that AOE4 should fail? Are you saying that since someone choose not to engage with a few people on AoEZone that they also want AoE4 to fail?

 

[robo]

Allow what to happen exactly?

Unwarranted glee and cheering for aoe4 to fail seems to be the point bdod was making.

Are you saying there are only a minority writing the posts but a majority of the player base likes them and its therefore not bigotry because actually a majority of AOE2 player base agrees that AOE4 should fail?

Idk about bigotry, but that could be a reasonable assumption to make, if negative comments recieve lots of reactions its likely lots of people agree with the sentiment being expressed.

Are you saying that since someone choose not to engage with a few people on AoEZone that they also want AoE4 to fail?

If no one, or a even smaller minority voices their disagreement with a (according to appearences) widely held opinion, it would make sense to think that there are not many people who do not support.

I don't necessarily hold that opinion, i know most people arent toxic idiots on aoezone, but its possible that someone who isnt deep into this site or wider community could believe what ive said.

 

[HongeyKong]

[Offtopic] I always hesitate pressing this , as Im not sure if people gonna interpret it as "well said 11" or "you clown". Even myself read it differently from time to time.

 

[bdod6]

But the reality is different. Ever since AoE4 is out the AoE2 has suffered from inactive top of the ladder, pro player leaving, switching or just becoming inactive. There is a certain split in the community if you like. We like it or not AoE4 has been the single major cause of the decline in AoE2 competitive scene.

From what I've seen, most top players in AoE2 have stayed with AoE2. Yes, Lierrey recently switched (although he probably would still compete in AoE2 tournaments), Hera left for a completely different game but will still compete in AoE2, and Viper is still playing both AoE2 and AoE4.

Having NAC switch to N4C this year was the only major shift, and AoE2 players have viewed it as a threat rather than an event to enjoy and root for. AoE4 had/has potential to bring in new fans to the genre, which would bring in more players for AoE2 as well.

Yes there is a single MS tournament pool, and I'm sure plenty of that money will go towards AoE2 events still. It still doesn't mean you have to view AoE2 and AoE4 as a zero-sum game. Support for one game does not mean the other one is being starved. The current tournament pool could have $5 million in it, and they are just waiting to announce more AoE2 tournaments in the future. Also, the tournament prize pool does not have to be static. MS could decide to allocate more to it in the future.

You can view it as scenario in which you are competing for a limited supply of resources, and AoE4's failure would be to the benefit of AoE2. This is a limited vision in my opinion. Much better to see and hope that growing success for AoE4 means greater success for AoE2 as well.

 

[plfan]

Who wrote any of that? There has been criticism of the gameplay, sure. Criticism of the distribution of funds, sure. But not once have I seen anyone here say aoe4 "should just die" or that it's not a skill based game.

Seriously? You've never seen such sentences on aoezone? Check below.

aoe4 fans, what can you say about the game? because everybody, including nili, is saying that N4C was a failure. yes the production was great, but game is not good enough. people doesnt enjoy, people doesnt like it. do you understand that?? every day less and less people play it. every day less and less people watch it. now that N4C finished, it will be a huge down in viewership. even today the viewers are really down.
its funny how aoe4 fans are trying to defend the game by saying that people hate it, or never played it. i never play so many games and sports but enjoy watching them.

Game is not good enough. For who? People doesn't enjoy it. What people? All on the earth?
If you wan't to be objective you can say - less people enjoy watching AoE4 than AoE2, but not "People doesn't enjoy it.
Viewership was worse than in aoe2 = true. But it doesn't mean the game is not good or people don't enjoy playing it or watching it.

Leauge of Legends has much more players and viewers. Even SC2 has more (but not much more). So, using your logic can I tell - AoE2 is not good enough, people don't like watching it? And using your logic it's a fact!
Or maybe we can compare games only if our game has better results than the other?

There was many people who enjoyed watching N4C, just not as many as RBW5, NAC3, KOTD4 etc.

And not only AoE4 fans are defending the game. I'm not even playing AoE4. I just don't like raping logic, stupid hate and dividing community.
There's a big difference between discussing the money distribution and saying the game is **** because it has fewer viewers.
If less viewers = worse game we are all (aoe2, aoe3, aoe4, any rts players) playing really bad games.

 

[Philippe le Bon]

hi

 

[Min]

I don't necessarily hold that opinion, i know most people arent toxic idiots on aoezone, but its possible that someone who isnt deep into this site or wider community could believe what ive said.

I am sorry, are you referring to the last paragraph of your post or more? I can't really answer you in detail, because I am unsure of what part is your opinion and what part is a hypothetical. What I can say though, is that being new or ignorant of something does not excuse anyone from being a bigot, on the contrary, it is often a requirement.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

My impression is that a substantial number of AoE2 players are actively rooting for AoE4 to fail because that would mean more resources for their preferred game, whether it's more pros streaming AoE2 or more money for tournaments. I find that kind zero-sum thinking to be unappealing and harmful. Instead of fighting over the biggest slice of the pie, we should be trying to grow the pie bigger for everyone.

My impression is probably based on a vocal minority, but it's enough that I would consider it to be impactful.

Yeah as others have said I don't think you're fully appreciating how much the low quality of AoE4 as a product as well as the low quality of AoE2:DE as a product are contributing to the reactions you are seeing. It is hard to grow the pie when the pie is not properly invested in or baked correctly. Rooting for AoE4 to fail is not necessarily done out of pure spite or out of a desire for AoE2 to aggressively monopolize resources but rather because it is a result that does not validate Microsoft's lacking process for developing the franchise.

That said, there is a level that is personal for AoE2 fans because AoE4 was positioned as a replacement for AoE2 by Microsoft; the adversial dynamic you identify is only being reflected by the community members it was forced upon. When people are insulted as they are and feel like what they value is under attack it is understandable they might find more glee in failure than would immediately appear tasteful.

These things is why I think the community would be best served by ignoring petty arguments and building consensus about the shortcomings at Microsoft. There is one thread underlying all the complaints that people have about both games and it would be more constructive if people who don't like AoE4 and people excited by AoE4 found that common ground. Unfortunately it always seems that when there is real serious criticism of Microsoft's performance a certain faction of community members seems to pop up defending them. I'm not sure why they seek to stifle this criticism so aggressively but it contributes a lot to the continued strife. There is of course nothing more unhelpful in a discussion than people who attempt to deny obvious facts.

 

[Für Loom und Ehre]

From what I've seen, most top players in AoE2 have stayed with AoE2. Yes, Lierrey recently switched (although he probably would still compete in AoE2 tournaments), Hera left for a completely different game but will still compete in AoE2, and Viper is still playing both AoE2 and AoE4.

Having NAC switch to N4C this year was the only major shift, and AoE2 players have viewed it as a threat rather than an event to enjoy and root for. AoE4 had/has potential to bring in new fans to the genre, which would bring in more players for AoE2 as well.

Yes there is a single MS tournament pool, and I'm sure plenty of that money will go towards AoE2 events still. It still doesn't mean you have to view AoE2 and AoE4 as a zero-sum game. Support for one game does not mean the other one is being starved. The current tournament pool could have $5 million in it, and they are just waiting to announce more AoE2 tournaments in the future. Also, the tournament prize pool does not have to be static. MS could decide to allocate more to it in the future.

You can view it as scenario in which you are competing for a limited supply of resources, and AoE4's failure would be to the benefit of AoE2. This is a limited vision in my opinion. Much better to see and hope that growing success for AoE4 means greater success for AoE2 as well.

I'm sorry, but dont you contradict yourself a little bit? I get why reading toxic nonsense about aoe4 gets annoying if you want aoe4 to succeed. But after all, this is aoezone, its famous for toxic nonsense. Concluding that the majority of the aoe2 community actively roots for aoe4 to fail based of 20 oozkan posts a day is maybe not the best idea. Aditionally, you talk about how the goal should be to grow the community as a whole and to "grow the pie for everybody", yet you "threaten" to stop investing in aoe2 in the same breath. Why not lead by example? I for example am simply not very interested in aoe4, but I think I would watch a fun showmatch with alternating aoe2/aoe4 matches or something. I think that would be a more fruitful attempt to unify the community.

Also, I think it is a bit far fetched to say "hey, you aoe2 guys basically lost a major tournament to aoe4 in N4C, but you should totally celebrate this, because it could mean great news for aoe2 in the future!" I get where you come from and my opinion is that great success for aoe4 could be positive in the long run for aoe2, but I also get die hard aoe2 fans that feel like aoe4 is sucking prizemoney and players out of the professional scene, which, at the moment, happens.

I do feel like a huge part of the aoe2 community is actually concerned about what aoe4 means for aoe2 and I think it has valid reasons to be, that shouldnt be criticized. The people expressing their concerns through toxic nonsense should be criticized, but I feel like its a very loud and annoying minority.

 

[ltm]

I think a lot of the hate and divide could've been easily avoided if they had wanted to. It's not like it is just about (some) players switching games or a tournament, it's a lot coming together.

Nili is the tournament coordinator for the whole AOE franchise, but at the same time he is a content creator who clearly prioritizes AOE4 since it got released. He then pretty much took the name of an well established AOE2 S-tier (more than just S-tier since it's one of the "big 3") tournament that was also highly anticipated by the community because covid prevented it for 2 years and turned it into an AOE4 tournament, featuring a ridiculously huge prize pool.

At the same time we as of now don't really know when/if we get another comparable AOE2 tournament with similar prestige/prize pool. We also didn't get the road map and tournament calendar that was said to be of high priority. On top of it we don't really know how the prize money allocation works, we just know that we probably won't see a huge prize pool event in AOE2 before BOA in June (?) while we see back to back 100k events in AOE4.

Now all of these things have diffrent reasons, not everything is entirely in control of Nili and/or MS, nothing of this is done in obvious bad will towards AOE2 etc. but it all adds up to a situation that seems to get a number of AOE2 fans quite worried/unhappy.

IMO no matter whats the deal here with 2 vs 4 in general, i think they could've done a way better job to at least partly prevent this negativity. But let's be real they probably don't care and maybe rightfully so because at the end of the day it's just some people on AOEZone and reddit, the dropping viewer/player numbers for their new (and generously sponsored) game is probably a bigger issue. Will be interesting to see how it all continues if the next big event ends up with rather mediocre numbers as well.

 

[KolyaKrasotkin]

In my perception, the "toxicity", which has been denunciated several times in all these threads on the whole "AoE2 and AoE4" thing, has mainly three emotional sources and three main targets.

The emotional sources are anger, self-righteousness and schadenfreude and the targets are MS, Nili and some strange "AoE4" as a game itself.

Some of the combinations of source and target definitely have a rational basis. E.g., one can be angry at MS for pushing an unfinished game with aggressive marketing, at the cost of AoE2, or about Nili for accepting the obvious conflicts of interest due to his different roles and positions.

Other combinations are, on the other hand, unreflected, irrational and damaging, e.g. the whole schadenfreude towards Nili and N4C regarding viewer numbers. Yes, there obivously were decisions, which with today's knowledge were pretty bad. But don't you think, Nili is fully aware of that?

And there is a very fine line between anger/criticism and hate/negativity.

PS: just saw, that a similar post was just written a minute before, sorry =)