NAC3 vs N4C in numbers

[KolyaKrasotkin]

Nili allocated 95k for his own tournament though. And it also was streamed on his own channel. It looks like he took the job, not to allocate funds fairly, but only for boosting his own channel.

This is ridiculous. NACs were part of the "Grand Slam" in AoE2; Nili wouldn't have had problems with any tournament coordinator to get that prize pool for N4C.
And I guess, financially N4C was a big loss for him, not even considering the image damage.

 

[Kaschperili]

This is ridiculous. NACs were part of the "Grand Slam" in AoE2; Nili wouldn't have had problems with any tournament coordinator to get that prize pool for N4C.
And I guess, financially N4C was a big loss for him, not even considering the image damage.

You are talking with the wisdom of hindsight. Of course N4C was a big loss for him. But at the time of his decision, he tought that he could use his power to boost his channel big time.
He went All in on Aoe4 and lost the bet.

 

[HongeyKong]

the aoe2 fans are reclaiming that the pot for the aoe franchise tournaments, should be distributed in a fair way, taking into consideration players and viewers.

You know, sponsorships are a delicate subject with long term goals in mind. They aren't aimed at getting immediate profit within a week. You would need to do a proper research to draw any conclusions, comparing two values without analyzing the context isn't enough. So I believe waaaay more factors than viewership and players should be considered, maybe something like age of the community / demographics of target customers / potential sales / cost of game development / and on so on.

 

[Fall]

This is ridiculous. NACs were part of the "Grand Slam" in AoE2; Nili wouldn't have had problems with any tournament coordinator to get that prize pool for N4C.
And I guess, financially N4C was a big loss for him, not even considering the image damage.

If the deal was that Nili supplies $5K and he receives $95K from the tournament prize pool, then I hope the same terms and conditions are applied to the hosts of other grand slam events.

The problem isn't whether or not N4C could have received this level of funding, the problem is whether or not Nili the tournament coordinator is applying the rules fairly, or giving himself favourable splits.

That means not giving himself a higher % of MS funds than he provides to other S-tier hosts like T90. If Nili goes and asks T90 to put in a higher % of funds into the prize pool for the next Hidden Cup than he put in himself to N4C, that'll be when we know we have a problem.

That said, the AOE4 community is coming for Nili's head now over on AOE4 subreddit for highlighting the low viewercounts that the game receives, feels like the guy is getting **** from all angles right now. I don't know how it's worth it.

 

[KolyaKrasotkin]

You are talking with the wisdom of hindsight. Of course N4C was a big loss for him. But at the time of his decision, he tought that he could use his power to boost his channel big time.

You are completely missing my point, which is, that he never needed the position of tournament coordinator to "boost his channel big time" by hosting N4C.

If the deal was that Nili supplies $5K and he receives $95K from the tournament prize pool, then I hope the same terms and conditions are applied to the hosts of other grand slam events.

I never said that there aren't conflicts of interest. There are. I said that it is ridiculous to assume that Nili took the position to push N4C.

 

[Fall]

You are completely missing my point, which is, that he never needed the position of tournament coordinator to "boost his channel big time" by hosting N4C.

I never said that there aren't conflicts of interest. There are. I said that it is ridiculous to assume that Nili took the position to push N4C.

Sure, I'm just saying let's wait and see if Nili follows similar principles in the future, and that grand slam event hosts receive equal splits of prize pool funding for their events or whether he forces them to risk more of their own money.

I'm saying we don't have the data right now, but we will have it in the future.

 

[robo]

If the deal was that Nili supplies $5K and he receives $95K from the tournament prize pool, then I hope the same terms and conditions are applied to the hosts of other grand slam events.

There are more costs than just the prize pool. Its likely the LAN cost up to an additional $100k to make happen. I'm not sure if all that funding would have come from HelloFresh and co, so it would seem likely that Nili had to put in $10-60k himself for event costs.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

Sure, I'm just saying let's wait and see if Nili follows similar principles in the future, and that grand slam event hosts receive equal splits of prize pool funding for their events or whether he forces them to risk more of their own money.

I'm saying we don't have the data right now, but we will have it in the future.

We do have a bit of data already:

Nili estimates the total cost of N4C to be around 215k dollars.
Microsoft sponsors 95k, so everything else will have to be covered by either Nili himself or other sponsors.

 

[Fall]

There are more costs than just the prize pool. Its likely the LAN cost up to an additional $100k to make happen. I'm not sure if all that funding would have come from HelloFresh and co, so it would seem likely that Nili had to put in $10-60k himself for event costs.

We do have a bit of data already:

Nili estimates the total cost of N4C to be around 215k dollars.
Microsoft sponsors 95k, so everything else will have to be covered by either Nili himself or other sponsors.

View attachment 198794​

Right, but $100K is the prize pool for the event. Choosing to run the event as a LAN definitely costs more, but also provides more benefits via increased tournament viewership etc. In general, LAN events have been more successful.

I don't think including all costs of the event is appropriate, it's better to compare prize pools. E.g. if T90 pays Dave to co-cast Hidden Cup, I don't think that should be included.

All other costs outside the prize pool are under control of the host, and they can choose to invest as much or as little in that event as they wish.

The variable we are comparing is how much of the prize pool MS funds - MS has never paid other costs as far as I am aware, so should not be considered.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

Right, but $100K is the prize pool for the event. Choosing to run the event as a LAN definitely costs more, but also provides more benefits via increased tournament viewership etc. In general, LAN events have been more successful.

I don't think including all costs of the event is appropriate, it's better to compare prize pools. E.g. if T90 pays Dave to co-cast Hidden Cup, I don't think that should be included.

All other costs outside the prize pool are under control of the host, and they can choose to invest as much or as little in that event as they wish.

There's a lot we don't know here obviously, but I think including the total costs is indeed relevant, because according to one of EGC's posts in this forum, it does look like Microsoft will somewhat match sponsorship money to the amount the host himself is bringing to the table.

Case in point RBW5, where suddenly Microsoft sponsors 100k (where previously it had been 20k/30k) cause it was trying to match the scale of the event.

There are certainly other factors no doubt, but it does look like this one plays a role too.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Nili allocated 95k for his own tournament though. And it also was streamed on his own channel. It looks like he took the job, not to allocate funds fairly, but only for boosting his own channel.

Realistically it makes perfect sense for Nili to allocate a lot of funds to a tournament he hosts even if there is an apparent conflict of interest because he has established a reputation as the host of a top event. It also makes sense for Microsoft to want him to make the newest edition of the tournament AoE4 rather than AoE2 because they just invested a lot of money into making AoE4 and have more financial interest in publicizing that. The issues really stem from the general arrangement imposed on the situation by Microsoft. Things would be different if AoE4 was not a terrible product, if AoE4 was not positioned to be a replacement for AoE2, and the investment in AoE2 over the DE era had been more out of genuinely regard for the game's potential and less because some low talent MBA stealing money from Microsoft thought a half-baked attempt to build hype for the predecessor game would somehow make a meaningful difference in the success of AoE4.

Though to avoid being negative, I don't think we should be too hard on any individual close to the game at Microsoft because the issues at that company run so deep they are all operating in a dysfunctional environment. A dysfunctional environment is like poverty, where people who have talent don't develop or behave as they should because they don't have the resources necessary to do the things they need to do to achieve that standard. So while we can allow for the MBA thinking what they thought to be called low talent, we must also allow for the possibility that they are smart enough to know better and made that move because it is conformant with the safe short-term focused logic that predominates in their managerial hierarchy.

 

[HongeyKong]

MS' fund doesnt necessarily all go into the prizepool, so you cant compare prizepool to prizepool, let alone comparing MS prizepool to MS prizepool.

EDIT: For example MS sponsored HC3 50k, 35k was used towards the prizepool.
https://www.aoezone.net/threads/hidden-cup-3-announcement.162914/

EDIT2:
For example

	MS prizepool	Other prizepool	MS operation	Other operation
Case 1	60		20
Case 2	80			20
Case 3	80	20		20

MS contributes 80 In all three cases, but the prize pool / MS prize pool differs. It would make more sense to compare the total amount MS sponsors, or their weight of contribution.

 

[robo]

The variable we are comparing is how much of the prize pool MS funds - MS has never paid other costs as far as I am aware, so should not be considered.

They most certainly have. HC3, HC4, ECL, BoA2, arguably KotD4 all have had some portion of event costs covered by Worlds Edge

 

[Fall]

They most certainly have. HC3, HC4, ECL, BoA2, arguably KotD4 all have had some portion of event costs covered by Worlds Edge

If that's the case then that completely changes things! In that case, MS funding $95K out of 200K+ is much more reasonable.

I feel like if this type of information was much more public and easy to find, that would definitely help with transparency and prevent people from getting the wrong idea.

I was under the impression that MS only helped to fund prize pools, and that the costs of the event were left in the most part up to the organiser.

 

[Kaschperili]

You are completely missing my point, which is, that he never needed the position of tournament coordinator to "boost his channel big time" by hosting N4C.

I never said that there aren't conflicts of interest. There are. I said that it is ridiculous to assume that Nili took the position to push N4C.

Only because you think it is ridiculous, does not mean it can not be true.

He wanted to establish himself as one of the main channels of Aoe4. Not only to boost his own tournament. Even Nili himself acknowleges the massive conflict of interest. But he is failing to do something about it.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

If that's the case then that completely changes things! In that case, MS funding $95K out of 200K+ is much more reasonable.

I feel like if this type of information was much more public and easy to find, that would definitely help with transparency and prevent people from getting the wrong idea.

Yeah robo sometimes does not seem to appreciate how poorly information is conveyed to the community. You see this the times where he acts offended while correcting someone saying something factually wrong even though him making that post is the first time such knowledge has been directly shared by someone in some form of official capacity. I have told him and others before what you say here but I've never seen any of them directly respond to or acknowledge the issue, even times where I was not the one to raise it. Hopefully he does not tune you out here because understanding this would allow him to treat his current role more cooperatively and less adversarially. It would also allow him greater depth of empathy for the apparent misbehavior of certain community members, as coarseness is a natural consequence of someone being treated disrespectfully.

 

[KolyaKrasotkin]

Only because you think it is ridiculous, does not mean it can not be true.

To reject a hypothesis, it is not necessary to prove that it is logically impossible. You ever heard of Occam's razor?

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

That said, the AOE4 community is coming for Nili's head now over on AOE4 subreddit for highlighting the low viewercounts

This true? How ungrateful do you have to be to go after someone who organised the best tournament for the game of such a poor quality:D they aren't getting anything better anytime soon or even ever and the fanbase actually feels like attacking Nili becasue he wasn't happy with the numbers XD unbelievable!

 

[Kaschperili]

To reject a hypothesis, it is not necessary to prove that it is logically impossible. You ever heard of Occam's razor?

Too much power in one hand always corrupts sooner or later. The history books are full of examples.

 

[FeAge]

It's been a long time since I last visited aoezone, and I really miss the game etc.

I played aoe 4 since the begining and I had great expectations towards it. The game is (or was) actually quite fun and I saw A LOT of potential. Especially because of the ammount of pros from other games like SC2, WC3, AOM, AOE3 that were inclining to invest in it.

BUT, the timing was just unbelievably awfull. The game was released in a state that should never have ever occurred. Simple things like CHANGING COLOR or even setting your own hotkeys were not there.

Now that they saw that people are just too frustrated to even care and are leaving the game, they are trying to rush to get those things that should be there since the begining, but it feels like it might be just too late.

It's a shame, because AOE2 is just perfect, but it wont ever attract these new young audience that AOE4 had the potential to... I feel like the RTS pro scene will just have to wait for another starcraft game or something like that to shine again.

 

[mogers87]

This true? How ungrateful do you have to be to go after someone who organised the best tournament for the game of such a poor quality:D they aren't getting anything better anytime soon or even ever and the fanbase actually feels like attacking Nili becasue he wasn't happy with the numbers XD unbelievable!

Many people on reddit really loved the tournament and were hyped about it. The argument is more that the winners interview + closing should have been a celebration. On the contrary, the event ended with a very negative sentiment talking about viewer numbers. it was particularly bad when the winner is sitting right next to him at that time.

I think that's a fair POV. The analysis around stats and whether it succeeded or failed should have come later.

 

[Tempires]

I see Tempires went "beast mode" on this thread. I wonder how much he got paid. Or at least how many feet he was allowed to lick for all this effort.

great way to start comment by mocking other people and anything similar withing comments will just voiding your arguments you may have. I will read your future comments in any topic this in mind.

Not "because it doesn't benefit you" but "because it actively harms his livelihood". Will you ever stop twisting people's words before responding to them?
Also, you have no right to deny other people ability to feel in various way about various things.

It isn't pointless by any means. It very much serves a point. What MbL said is correct. Many people didn't realize things he said. He's dropping a truth bomb which can be thought provoking and eye opening to people who were of different opinion before that point. Just because you weren't affected doesn't mean it was pointless. Stop being such a hateful being. You might dress up your vitriol in pretty words but fact is, you're constantly going around attacking people for what they say, claiming their words don't matter, twisting their words, lying about the situations, manipulating, deflecting.

I can't believe you keep bringing up this atrocious fallacy. No, you don't need to be a cook to be unhappy about hair in your soup. You don't need to waste hundreds of hours on something that doesn't interest you to say you dislike it and wish other people played the game you like.

What i have been saying here is that in Mbl's tweets he is not talking about if aoe4 harms his livelihood, just about aoe4 sucking. If aoe4 affecting his livehood is his reason for all comments about aoe4, he should be talking about that topic instead of just "aoe4 sucks" stuff in trashing manner. By that way he is masking is real intentions(which we don't know, you say because it harms him, which is not words he has said), acting completely based on his interests(and not whenever aoe4 is good or bad game, which makes no sense when topic is aoe4 is bad) and not being honest to people following him. Whenever aoe4 harms mbl or not is irrelevant to aoe4 being bad or not: mbl starving to dead does not make aoe4 as game bad game nor aoe2 making mbl billionaire does make aoe2 good game. There isn't even any proof he is affected much by aoe4 launch, Memb for example is doing better than before to me. I haven't said he cannot tell how he feels but if he feels bad how aoe4 affects him he should talk about that and not mask it aoe4 being bad. If he thinks aoe4 is bad based on real information and experience (and not if it affects him), he could provide reasons why he thinks it's not bad/not good like many aoe2 community figures have said. Since mbl hasn't played aoe4 at all( hair in your soup is also first hand experience) since he refused to play it even before aoe4 was released, trashing manner he expresses this and this personal interest you bring up he just simply is not as believable person compared let's say Viper, Memb or others who have rightly criticized aoe4 issues. There is many better sources for your "truth bomb", whenever same things will turn to be right for most is not relevant compared to if thing is right. Anyway you are looking too much into topic when person talked about is not participating into it at all or talked about it much making most of discussion just speculation in bigger picture(which does no good for that person).

 

[Fall]

This true? How ungrateful do you have to be to go after someone who organised the best tournament for the game of such a poor quality:D they aren't getting anything better anytime soon or even ever and the fanbase actually feels like attacking Nili becasue he wasn't happy with the numbers XD unbelievable!

Yes, I'm not going to link or anything because it goes against reddit rules, but you can check the top posts of last 24 hours and find it, some people called for him to make a public apology video to BeastyQT. Lots are just generically angry.

 

[Tempires]

t, some people called for him to make a public apology video to BeastyQT. Lots are just generically angry.

Aussie drongo talked about this in his newest video and he did not understand or something that Nili wanted to do such self talk instead of just continuing livestream just like after any other interview but now just by himself. Aussie drongo made his joke and stayed with BeastyQT after Nili thanked and suggested them to leave the scene. I didn't pay much attention to video so don't take my word about all of that

BeastyQT talked about topic which covers about how interview was shorter than others despite being winner of N4C(no talk about matches), awkwardess of situation after interview ended(and how that was longer than his own interview), bad timing being after interview and conclusion to N4C(when he could have done it in video days after like Nili did for NAC1-3). he feels quite frustrated and sad days after.

 

[HongeyKong]

Yes, I'm not going to link or anything because it goes against reddit rules, but you can check the top posts of last 24 hours and find it, some people called for him to make a public apology video to BeastyQT. Lots are just generically angry.

Im not sure if youve watched the post match interview / speech, I myself cant rewatch that, and Im not even taking Beastys side of story into consideration.

EDIT: If you managed to finish the speech, and somehow watched Beastys clip. And still have the courage to rewatch the post match speech, Ill provide you some BGM 1 2