My side of the story

[FolderOfDoom]

For the record I have no reason to be speaking up about this other than feeling gutted for a fellow player being treated injustly. Me and belgium aren't best friends, I'm not out to get chrazini or disrespect any admins, I always respect their tough decisions and their work. However I felt like there was some clear injustice done here, and I for one don't wanna stand idly by and watch someone lose out on a huge opportunity because of something outside his control.

Hard to see any injustice done after he did agree to play when he was back home and just didnt. I can totaly understand to put irl stuff before staying at your PC for hours waiting or playing 6 hours delayed. But agreeing in the end to play but never intending to do (basicaly lying to the Admin) is something that imo would even warrent to ban Bugum from future events. You can disagree, dont follow rules and take the consiquences but that last part is just plain disrespectfull imo.

UNder this circumstances my sympathy for Bugum is sadly zero.

 

[NuclearPasta]

Why couldn't Belgium say something on his own behalf? Could he not find the RBWV thread despite it being on the top of What's New all day? Not know how to make a thread himself?

Super confused why a highly ranked player and active member of the community needs someone else to voice his grievances for him.

 

[im the cookie]

Mmmm...

I think one of the problems that is not being talked about is that Chrazini reached out constantly to PB to see how the errand was going and it got delayed more, and more.
PB agreed with F1re behind Chrazini's back to just play the next day (better to ask forgiveness than permission, I guess) instead of discussing it with the admin present.

I think that was something that broke the camel's back. Ghosting Chrazini and just not listening to him. I find that quite disrespectful, tbh.

 

[IYIyTh]

Name a more iconic duo than aoezone and jumping to conclusions based on one-sided 2nd hand information, I'll wait

I don't think it was AOEZone, I'm pretty sure it was a very small group of pro player(s) who are known for expecting certain favoritism and exception to their unprofessional behavior and a few of their followers, intentionally fanning flames that from what I can tell weren't there to begin with.

Shoot, I didn't even see Bugum address it.

Rules are rules, and if absolutely anything it looks like from the perspective I can see that the admin(s) actually went above and beyond the rulebook in accommodation, risking the appearance of favoritism to attempt to accommodate PB's errand.

 

[Daniel]

Why couldn't Belgium say something on his own behalf? Could he not find the RBWV thread despite it being on the top of What's New all day? Not know how to make a thread himself?

Super confused why a highly ranked player and active member of the community needs someone else to voice his grievances for him.

Because hes currently asleep and he talked about this on twitter. I also believe that he was responding to people a lot about the situation when people asked him on Viper's twitch chat when streams started.

 

[homers84]

@Daniel
"but is it really belgium's responsibility to wait for 3 hrs for something that he does not know the time that it would take f1re/stark to solve, or whether f1re/stark can solve? " regarding to the rules and the admins interpretation: yes.

i think if belgium would have some compassionate reasons why he was not able to play, could prove or map out those, that should imo have an impact on the interpretation of his abstinence. but only uncertainty regarding the length of stark+fire is not enough of a reason to not follow the rules here imo.

"Was the above option really not the better solution as it could've avoided an AW to the best of everyone's ability?" chrazini mapped out his reasoning and it is not a crazy one. would i personally have preferred that they play next day? for sure, but i do not know what the agreements with red bull are, how much pressure they apply that everything runs in time etc. i could imagine that for chrazini such an event is massive pressure

Heras tweet was borderline irresponsible. He said "leave robo alone", so do not leave chrazini alone? what you say can have as much impact as what you are not saying.

 

[Hearttt]

Hard to see any injustice done after he did agree to play when he was back home and just didnt. I can totaly understand to put irl stuff before staying at your PC for hours waiting or playing 6 hours delayed. But agreeing in the end to play but never intending to do (basicaly lying to the Admin) is something that imo would even warrent to ban Bugum from future events. You can disagree, dont follow rules and take the consiquences but that last part is just plain disrespectfull imo.

UNder this circumstances my sympathy for Bugum is sadly zero.

"As with the Sitaux vs slam set, I am entirely okay with them postponing and playing later the same day. Belgium offers to play tomorrow, which I decline and let him know I would still like him to play today. Belgiums persist and reach out to the opponents asking them to play the day after. Once again, I am letting him know that tomorrow is not an option and that he needs to prioritise his time when it comes to an event this size - it is worth saying that the errand was not incredibly crucial and that other solutions could have been used to avoid it."

The earliest Belgium was able to play was in fact NOT in the same day, according to Chrazini it was at 12 AM of the next day for him. It is absolutely unreasonable to expect a player to play a series at midnight after having already played multiple sets prior. I don't know the specifics to Belgium's day other than what was mentioned here, but it seems like he was forced to accept the series to start at midnight or just straight up take an admin loss, partly due to situations on the other side of the bracket which he had no control of. How can you assume that he had no intentions of actually playing the set, even though it was at mid night? Isn't it very likely that he came home and realised how terrible of an idea it was to put himself in a match under such heavy disadvantages when, with some compromise from Fire and the admin's approval, it wasn't absolutely necessary?

Let me just make it clear, I sympathize with Belgium here, because I definitely wouldn't want to start a set at midnight for my opponent or myself. How many times in the past, have people tried to make excuses for other european or chinese players who have to play at a suboptimal time (which were not as bad as this one) and how does that not come into play here, when reschedule was absolutely a possibility? If 11 GMT was too close to the scheduled matches, was an earlier time not discussed? Or did the games absolutely have to be played on Saturday for the admin's timezone?

 

[malamadre]

I dont know about you guys but i used to do some sport competitions IRL when i was like 13. In this case basketball. When there were tournaments you went to the gym you played your game. The next game could be in 8 hours or in 1 hour. You HAD to be there.

You are not there? "Oh sure lets wait until tomorrow so you special snowflake can play"<--- that wasnt even an idea. What was the prize pool? With luck a cheap medal.

So why is it top players cant just sit their ass and follow simple ****ing rules? Its a chance of winning 30k and travel for free! Jesus even 13 year olds are more commited.

 

[DaisyChain]

Because hes currently asleep and he talked about this on twitter. I also believe that he was responding to people a lot about the situation when people asked him on Viper's twitch chat when streams started.

Yes, Belgium said a lot of things on Twitch chats the entire day. I can understand the frustration, but not all of them were very smart. Especially this one "next time I change my name to the viper and then he would allow it..." but I guess he felt wronged.

I spent the second half of the day regularly seeing uninformed discussions about that and flames directed at Chrazini regularly popping out in chats of the various streamers I was watching, including truly insane things about how biased he is for Viper or ridiculous claims like that (what does it have to do with Viper?). It's hard to believe noone bears any responsability even if noone intended any wrong.

 

[Daniel]

I don't think it was AOEZone, I'm pretty sure it was a very small group of pro player(s) who are known for expecting certain favoritism and exception to their unprofessional behavior and a few of their followers, intentionally fanning flames that from what I can tell weren't there to begin with.

Shoot, I didn't even see Bugum address it.

Rules are rules, and if absolutely anything it looks like from the perspective I can see that the admin(s) actually went above and beyond the rulebook in accommodation, risking the appearance of favoritism to attempt to accommodate PB's errand.

Not sure if the pro player part was directed towards me at all but I will bite the bullet. I was just suggesting alternatives and other solutions that could've at worst led to the same conclusion to the tournament, at best avoided an AW. Suggesting alternatives should not be considered unprofessional and should not deserve insults/presumptions from you. We are just voicing our opinions on a matter based on the information given in a civil way.

 

[IYIyTh]

Not sure if the pro player part was directed towards me at all but I will bite the bullet. I was just suggesting alternatives and other solutions that could've at worst led to the same conclusion to the tournament, at best avoided an AW. Suggesting alternatives should not be considered unprofessional and should not deserve insults/presumptions from you. We are just voicing our opinions on a matter based on the information given in a civil way.

Wait, Daniel, you're considered a pro player now?

It wasn't directed at you, but at the witch-hunt that was directed at the admin of the tournament for following the tournament's rules.

You don't have to like the tournament's rules, and criticizing the rules themselves is perfectly acceptable in the right format. This seems more like a few friends upset their bud couldn't get a shot/crack at a tournament. If it evolves from a witch-hunt castigating Chrazini to an open discussion on the efficacy / ability for tournament leniency in scheduling -- that would be wonderful.

The original narrative from the first page most certainly did not start that way, regardless of how it ends.

 

[M4lt3]

I would say I agree that more mild options should always be explored first, and that playing early on the second day would probably be the smoothest solution.

That said, I DO NOT understand what was going on here:

At this point, he is home, it is late, but it is only late due to his own actions. I, therefore, ask him to play in 30 minutes, as both players will be available then. He agrees. I explain that they must play privately, send me drafts and recorded games once they have finished, as I will not be available during the matches, to which he once again agrees.

The next day, I wake up with nothing from Belgium. No games, no drafts and not even a single message. I had to hear everything from F1Re instead. Belgium had not wanted to play due to being too tired and told F1Re that they should play tomorrow at 11.00 GMT. Belgium also told F1Re that he would be fine with an admin loss if I did not accept this.

Belgium agrees to a time, and within 30 minutes he figures he is too tired to play. Then he doesn't give any excuse himself to why the games weren't played AND says that he is fine with an admin loss?!

I really don't like that Belgium is forced to wait all day, nor that he is pressured to play at a time which isn't comfortable for him. I don't understand why playing the next day would be a big problem. But why agree to a match time (which would be 30 min later), reconsider, don't tell the admin anything about it and tell that you would be fine with an AL. That's basically begging for the loss.

All in all, it shouldn't even have come this far. Neither person went out of their way to make life for the other any easier.

 

[FolderOfDoom]

The earliest Belgium was able to play was in fact NOT in the same day, according to Chrazini it was at 12 AM of the next day for him. It is absolutely unreasonable to expect a player to play a series at midnight after having already played multiple sets prior. I don't know the specifics to Belgium's day other than what was mentioned here, but it seems like he was forced to accept the series to start at midnight or just straight up take an admin loss, partly due to situations on the other side of the bracket which he had no control of. How can you assume that he had no intentions of actually playing the set, even though it was at mid night? Isn't it very likely that he came home and realised how terrible of an idea it was to put himself in a match under such heavy disadvantages when, with some compromise from Fire and the admin's approval, it wasn't absolutely necessary?

And i would totaly agree if he hadnt agreed to play at that point.

At this point, he is home, it is late, but it is only late due to his own actions. I, therefore, ask him to play in 30 minutes, as both players will be available then. He agrees. I explain that they must play privately, send me drafts and recorded games once they have finished, as I will not be available during the matches, to which he once again agrees.

He could have just said sorry its to late for me i cant play under this conditions instead of kinda lying to the Admin and just gambeling his wrong behaviour would be overlooked and he finaly gets his will for a game next day 11 GMT. He did know that its an AL no matter but instead of takin it and than complain about the bad decision, planning, scheduling rules he just did lie to play in 30 minutes and gambeled for a forced reaction in his favor, even asking F1re to deliver the message instead of telling himself ....

At this point he lost any sympathy for his situation in my eyes.

 

[roxyc]

I think everyone is a bit in the wrong and a bit in the right in this situation. I think something unfortunate happened (the delayed set) which is certainly not admins fault but neithers is PB and it kinda snowballed from there, where i personally think -like i said- there are no absolute victims, things could've been done differently from every angle. Im just sad to see that only one single person has to pay for the after party of a mess thats not the fault of either PB or the admin. I can only imagine how tricky things can be when organizing these events, but players are after all people too and they too have a personal life and im not sure how "rules are rules" apply when unexpected things happened. I agree rules are, indeed, rules but rules can be questioned, can be changed and can certainly be improved. Either way its allowed to agree to disagree, im not sure why its either all one side or the other

 

[Hearttt]

And i would totaly agree if he hadnt agreed to play at that point.


He could have just said sorry its to late for me i cant play under this conditions instead of kinda lying to the Admin and just gambeling his wrong behaviour would be overlooked and he finaly gets his will for a game next day 11 GMT. He did know that its an AL no matter but instead of takin it and than complain about the bad decision, planning, scheduling rules he just did lie to play in 30 minutes and gambeled for a forced reaction in his favor, even asking F1re to deliver the message instead of telling himself ....

At this point he lost any sympathy for his situation in my eyes.

The admin had already shown either no sympathy for his situation or the absolute necessity that he played the games that night and declined rescheduling for the next day multiple times. What difference would it make to, for the 4th time, ask for a reschedule? His "wrong behaviour" came at a time that literally didn't make a difference other than for ethical reasons, as his luck seemingly had already been decided.

 

[Daniel]

"As with the Sitaux vs slam set, I am entirely okay with them postponing and playing later the same day. Belgium offers to play tomorrow, which I decline and let him know I would still like him to play today. Belgiums persist and reach out to the opponents asking them to play the day after. Once again, I am letting him know that tomorrow is not an option and that he needs to prioritise his time when it comes to an event this size - it is worth saying that the errand was not incredibly crucial and that other solutions could have been used to avoid it."

The earliest Belgium was able to play was in fact NOT in the same day, according to Chrazini it was at 12 AM of the next day for him. It is absolutely unreasonable to expect a player to play a series at midnight after having already played multiple sets prior. I don't know the specifics to Belgium's day other than what was mentioned here, but it seems like he was forced to accept the series to start at midnight or just straight up take an admin loss, partly due to situations on the other side of the bracket which he had no control of. How can you assume that he had no intentions of actually playing the set, even though it was at mid night? Isn't it very likely that he came home and realised how terrible of an idea it was to put himself in a match under such heavy disadvantages when, with some compromise from Fire and the admin's approval, it wasn't absolutely necessary?

Let me just make it clear, I sympathize with Belgium here, because I definitely wouldn't want to start a set at midnight for my opponent or myself. How many times in the past, have people tried to make excuses for other european or chinese players who have to play at a suboptimal time (which were not as bad as this one) and how does that not come into play here, when reschedule was absolutely a possibility? If 11 GMT was too close to the scheduled matches, was an earlier time not discussed? Or did the games absolutely have to be played on Saturday for the admin's timezone?

To add - It was not 12am, it was 2am.

and bugum waited til 2:20 his time for the series to start - we were on discord chatting.

 

[ponciliano]

then playing at a pretty terrible time for an european player.

Well, asian players face the same issues every f*ng tournament. Everybody gotta be read for this, mainly when talking about the biggest tournament of your life.

Then, congratz to Chrazini for not privileging anyone. If he had to be considerate towards european player's biological clock, then he'd have to be towards everybody's biological clock, which then would create unsolvable problems. Much respect for his decision, he were definitely rational about this.

 

[homers84]

but he could have played earlier then 2:30 am when he wouldn't have left home or not?

 

[robo]

Sorry for quoting things out of order, just responding to bits as they catch my eye.

If people think my tweet was irresponsible, lemme ask you this: had I not spoke out would this be getting talked about? Would we hear both sides of the story? Seems to me that it woulda been swept right under the rug, think about that for a second. I'll take a bit of irresponsibility rather than see these kinds of things go unnoticed

That is such a **** take...

Assuming everything Chrazini has said is truthful, why does this entire story need talking about?

Bugum clearly knew what he was doing was not allowed, yet went ahead and did it anyway, even stating that he is fine to get the Admin Loss. At this point it's reasonable to be a little upset and complain to close friends, that is normal, but for those 'friends' to then go and start something on his behalf that wont change the result and will obviously lead to pile ons by stupid uneducated parts of peoples communities who know nothing and contribute nothing.
The time to discuss this was between the 3 involved parties at certain times (twice on saturday when games were supposed to be played, and sunday morning when an Admin decision was made), once those ships have sailed there is no urgency to bring up the issues in a public forum, while the aggrieved party is incredible busy doing their job and are unable to defend themself. If this really was a topic that needed discussing then the solution should have been for Bugum himself to raise the issue sometime after the qualifiers are finished, where all parties get a fair chance at representing themselves.

That's the way professionals handle their issues, not crying to their rabid fans on social media platforms and stirring up twitch chat.

Imagine if every time I have had an issues with players (it has happened numerous times over the years) I publicly called them out for the stupid **** that they have done, rather than discussed it privately and tried to come to a reasonable solution, for this time or the future?

Would that make the players happy? It would be pretty ****ing satisfying let me tell you, but that isn't what someone is supposed to do when dealing with people's lives/jobs/incomes/being a responsible adult.
Imagine if you did this at a "real" workplace. You're unhappy with something that management has done, so instead of talking to them about it and trying to resolve the situation you start telling all the customers what a **** store it is. What do you think happens next?

Now more on topic, the main issue I have is how easily were handing out admin losses and how little the voices of the players matter. I also believe theres not enough flexbility for players and they often have to over-compensate for other things going wrong (example server issues, crashes,etc)

Imagine if someone tried to go out of their way to organise a group discussion months ago and tried to represent player's needs & desires. They organise a 2 hour long meeting time, sets up proposed agenda topics, tried to do their best to address any issues players are facing ahead of time.
Imagine if then nobody out of ~40+ invited participants show up, barely anyone says that they wont be attending and a bare handful post some written feedback before/after the meeting.

It's pretty hard to attempt to make life easier for players when most of them don't care enough to have a serious discussion about the issues. It's always easier to just sit there complaining without actually putting any work in.

We allowed stark-f1re 3 hours to my knowledge to finish their games

Assuming the start time on Liquipedia is accurate, they started ~1 hour later than every other set (yes ~2 hours later for bugum, but thats just how things go in weekend events sometimes), which is not abnormal for this type of event for one arm of the bracket to be delayed by a bit, then the 2-0 result has less than 1 hour of game time. so it should not have taken longer than ~40-60 minutes for that series to be played.
So Bugum may have waited 3 hours, but that does not mean that the tournament was 3 hours delayed. That just means that his sets were finished faster than average (backed up by the fact that his equivalent match vs spring started later than 6 matches, and earlier than 8 matches for that ro32). St4rk F1re was the latest of those matches but not by an unreasonable amount based on the provided information.
If I had built the schedule the Ro32 would have been aimed to start ~17:30, F1re/st4rk started~18:20, Bugum/spring 16:15, the two extremes of weekend events.

For the record I have no reason to be speaking up about this other than feeling gutted for a fellow player being treated injustly. Me and belgium aren't best friends, I'm not out to get chrazini or disrespect any admins, I always respect their tough decisions and their work. However I felt like there was some clear injustice done here, and I for one don't wanna stand idly by and watch someone lose out on a huge opportunity because of something outside his control.

How do you know that he was treated unjustly when you only have his side of the situation? Of course the player getting an AL is going to feel hard done by, that doesn't necessarily mean they are in the right.

You are a leader in this community, you 'decide' (for lack of a better word) what hundreds or thousands of people think about situations that they have no knowledge or understanding about. You can inadvertantly start a huge shitstorm of hate and unwarranted abuse with just 30 seconds of unfiltered talk/tweet and as spiderman knows, with great power comes great responsibility.

At least posting on AoEZone, most readers are pretty serious/hardcore fans of the game and have some understanding of what is going on. Most random aoe2 fans on twitter or twitch chat wouldn't know the difference between a 2 hour check-in period or a start time.

 

[Hearttt]

Well, asian players face the same issues every f*ng tournament. Everybody gotta be read for this, mainly when talking about the biggest tournament of your life.

I agree. The difference being here that the chinese can probably try to adapt their sleep schedule around match starting times to atleast not be at such a bad disadvantage, while Belgium had to play games earlier in the day and then was given no option but to play around 12 hours later on an already busy day .

I've woken up multiple times at 6 am to play games at a time that suits the Asian player's timezone, they are not the only ones who can suffer the consequences of timezone differences. It's just something we have to accept as a community that is from all over the world and that is exactly why even the admins need to be onboard and open to being sensitive about scheduled times.

 

[ponciliano]

I agree. The difference being here that the chinese can probably try to adapt their sleep schedule around match starting times to atleast not be at such a bad disadvantage, while Belgium had to play games earlier in the day and then was given no option but to play around 12 hours later on an already busy day .

I've woken up multiple times at 6 am to play games at a time that suits the Asian player's timezone, they are not the only ones who can suffer the consequences of timezone differences. It's just something we have to accept as a community that is from all over the world and that is exactly why even the admins need to be onboard and open to being sensitive about scheduled times.

Gotcha. I get the nuances of the situation. But still, Chrazini explained quite well that the match had to happen in the day, and warned Belgium more than a few times about it, that postponing to the next day wouldn't be acceptable.

It was Belgium's decision to defy the admin's decision and try to insist in a delay to the other day and hope Chrazini would just forgive and swipe everything under the rug.

Also Belgium would've played earlier if he simply didn't attend to the errand, according to Chrazini's version.

 

This discussion is heated and way too much influenced by personal feelings and negative experiences to have a clear picture of the situation and an open-minded discussion.

It's Corona's fault, everybody knows.

 

[ponciliano]

Heras tweet was borderline irresponsible. He said "leave robo alone", so do not leave chrazini alone? what you say can have as much impact as what you are not saying.

You gone for the kill there, nice one.

Hera should've just apologized for promoting a witchhunt against Chrazini, as well as Belgium for lying and later creating drama against Chrazini because he didn't bend to his will. But sadly they are too proud and immature for this.

Also too proud are his mates, who display a shameless corporatism here. There are no "victimS" here. There is only one victim: Chrazini, assuming everything he said is truthful, which everything indicate is.

 

[archxeon]

@Hera_ In the past you have made some mistakes and the community has over time forgiven/forgotten or glossed over it thinking you were young. But man now you influence so much more people, so please think about your actions. Especially when you think its controversial.

As DauT famously said : "You are young and stupid. But you won't be young forever".

 

[Hearttt]

You gone for the kill there, nice one.

Hera should've just apologized for promoting a witchhunt against Chrazini, as well as Belgium for lying and later creating drama against Chrazini because he didn't bend to his will. But sadly they are too proud and immature for this.

Also too proud are his mates, who display a shameless corporatism here. There are no "victimS" here. There is only one victim: Chrazini.

? What in the f is this post even supposed to mean lmao.

I could literally have only read Chrazini's side of the story (which in fact was the first one I read, followed up by Hera's tweet just to know context) and I would still think the wrong decision was taken here. Stop trying to display Chrazini as a victim here. His opening to the thread is just as bad as Hera's tweet when it comes to calling someone out if not worse, as Hera only shared his opinion on what he considered a bad admin decision (and I did too, from the moment I read Chrazini's version). You can already see it's effect on people on this thread alone, you being one of them. Hera might be a person with influence on this community, but so is Chrazini.

Feels like I'm answering to an obvious troll at this point.