MSC 10.800$ 1v1 Event

I have the honor to announce that thanks to the Chinese sponsor AoE_ROTR with the invaluable assistance of the great Mr.YO , MembTV has been chosen to organize a 1v1 tournament of our beloved Age of Empires 2 with the WK expansion, which will bring us nothing more and nothing less than the best 16 players duking it out in the Mangrove Shallows Cup. The tournament will provide some special maps and settings including RM and a map per round in DM. The total prize of the tournament is 10,800 USD and will take place during a 5 weeks Swiss format to subsequently move to Single Elimination.

The tournament participants will be 16 players who are directly invited by the sponsor, the choice of the same has been conducted by polling some of the best players in our community for their opinion of the top 16 players. After collating and analyzing their votes the list of participants is as follows, in order:

1. TheViper
2.Liereyy
3. Mr.Yo
4. MbL
5. TaToH
6. TheMax
7. ViVi
8. Nicov
9. DauT
10. Dogao
11. BacT
12. Hera
13. Tim
14. Lyx
15. ACCM
16. Villese

You can find all the information HERE

Remember to join the GROUP to have full access.



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How does one prove they are good enough if there is no qualification stage to allow them to do it?

You can't have qualifications for everything, there is enough to qualify for, just not this one. That's all. An invitational is just a big showmatch or showtournament where the sponsor want to see the best matches played.

 

For Laaaan, Dracont and others who complain that they are not in this top 16. You know why? because you're not considered to be good enough to compete with those guys yet..
I know that sounds hard, but those players who are on thats list didnt come to the top overnight. If you organise a tennis tournament with huge prize money, you write to the top 50 players to come, not to the players who are just under the top, or the ones that had a good performance once in a while. The premier league also isnt 40 teams either, just because the championship teams think they can win once in a while from the premier league teams.
If you want to see top matches, you don't want to see a huge underdog because those sweeps are not fun to watch.
For the people who are missing out on this event, just play all the tourneys that you can participate! (and try to qualify for the open spots in invitationals, if you can't win those spots, you dont deserve to play in the tourney right?) and raise your elo, because lots of tourneys are based on it. And if you can't participate because you're elo is to low or you missed the qualification but you still think you are still good enough to participate, well... then you're just a better player in your head then ingame.
Just because tournaments are with much more money these days doesn't mean that everyone deserves a chunk of it. (there is also not a tournament for 18xx with 10k, the same as there isnt one for 2.2k people) You have to show that you're good enough to earn those pieces. And the bllsht about "this is not good for the game and have a negative effect" remember 2-3 years ago when everyone participated in tourneys with 300 dollars pricepool? Nobody complained about having only the top players play it, but people getting greedy now and everyone who is 2.2k+ thinks they deserve those new big moneys, also if you're not the very top yet.
Just keep on keeping being better and play all the tourneys you can, there are still enough qualifying tourneys, and show that you're worth inviting the next time.

And to memb... and the sponsor and tourney organisers, i'm very much looking forward to this tourney!

Is this a joke? Or are you new? As I said, in the 3rd group of players, which is the 6-30 top players there is not any difference.
Do you remember Stark beating TheYo in the first round of KotD? Or Miguels performance in HC1? Me beating Tim 3-0 in one hour and so many many many many others examples?

 

The discussion as to who belongs in what tournament and how they get there is a great one and one that needs to be had. Maybe open a general thread about it since this tournament had set rules mandated by the sponsor and they are not going to change?

 

I still think LaaaNs point remains valid. He seems to be one of the ppl who play all the tournaments he can participate in. But thats literally about 3 series a year. He would have to start winning with an insane win-% overnite to "show everyone". And mostly against higher seeds. Are aoc players supposed to peak at age 50, when they finally get the necessary experience?

A lot of it is because we dont have a functional ladder system, but since that fact cant be easily changed, it would be nice if more tournaments took the needs of the 2nd and 3rd tier pros into consideration.

E. But I agree that this whole topic might needs its own thread.

 

Please define what additional things need to be considered. You don't gain name recognition by not performing well or having good achievements in past tournaments.

For the guys who get 2300, 2400 + ratings your performance in the qualifying stage is all that actually shows your current level, activity and preparation.

Rating is easy to manipulate, there's loads of people with 21/22+ ratings who are are massively overrated and these actual tournament competitors could just camp those kind of players without any fear of actually losing a game to inflate their rating.

Name recognition is just a function of how long you've been playing tournaments for, it is as irrelevant as tournaments without qualification stages are for actual competition.

Look at any successful competitive game, they all have qualification stages. Looking at SC2 for instance, they'll have massive online qualification stages for their offline events.

If I was Laaaaan or anyone else at that kind of level - or any kind of 'up & coming' player who is investing time into AoE, this type of thing would definitely make me lose interest.

 

Look at any successful competitive game, they all have qualification stages. Looking at SC2 for instance, they'll have massive online qualification stages for their offline events.

Everything is possible with more resources. In this case time and money. It takes more time & effort to host a longer tournament.

 

Is this a joke? Or are you new? As I said, in the 3rd group of players, which is the 6-30 top players there is not any difference.
Do you remember Stark beating TheYo in the first round of KotD? Or Miguels performance in HC1? Me beating Tim 3-0 in one hour and so many many many many others examples?

I'm not new here, i'm here for years.. And i know there can be upsets in tournaments .. But fact is that in tournaments there is a limiting amount of people who can join. This sponsor want to see the top 16 participate and he asked to do it with this new system. It's not even that he didn't think you weren't top 16 yet. Top players thought that. It also doesn't mean that you, stark or miguel, or belgium etc are not really good but apparantly just below this 16. I'm just tired of the arguing... If it would be a top 32 based on elo, people who grind on low levels will join and maybe better people will join make it who maybe deserve it more, no system is flawless. A top 16 is always arbitrary because at the lower spots there are more people who can take it.
I remember a topic on this forum a year ago or so when someone (i think memb) asked what the most fair ranking system was, and this one was quite high in the polls..
Really, i think you can go far in tournaments and are a topplayer, just play the ones that you participate in, let it see in ECL or other tournaments and you or others will pass players in the ranks eventually.

@buhanisson i totally agree, but i have never have seen any moderators move posts or remove things because they where offtopic. For me it would be fine if my posts were deleted since they are totally oftopic, but then clean this thread as a whole.

 

Is this a joke? Or are you new? As I said, in the 3rd group of players, which is the 6-30 top players there is not any difference.
Do you remember Stark beating TheYo in the first round of KotD? Or Miguels performance in HC1? Me beating Tim 3-0 in one hour and so many many many many others examples?

I agree with you and your main post but not on this part, you can't say there is no difference between top 6 to top 30. You really think you are on the lvl of vivi daut nicov and maybe a few others? Of course there will be always some unexpected results in tourneys like in any others games or in football, because it's some small BO on one day and it depends on many factors, maps, civs, shape etc... But I'm pretty sure if you play the guys I have quoted in a bo101 I don't think you will get a closed results VS them specially on full rdm maps. That's only my opinion. I' d say until top 12 it's fair, then for others you could definetly get in too
Beside that I agree with your post.

 

Most people who are complaining here might have voted in this thread. There is no absolutely perfect way. There will always be 1-2 people who were very close to cut off line.

Below thread is from Jan 2019

What is/are your preferred seeding methods?

With a small discussion going on about the seeding in KotD2, I was wondering what your guys opinion on seeding are. What do you think is the most fair and accurate way to seed teams? I'll give a bit more explanation to the options in the poll: 1. Elo based system: Could be a system where it...

www.aoezone.net

 

I agree with you and your main post but not on this part, you can't say there is no difference between top 6 to top 30. You really think you are on the lvl of vivi daut nicov and maybe a few others? Of course there will be always some unexpected results in tourneys like in any others games or in football, because it's some small BO on one day and it depends on many factors, maps, civs, shape etc... But I'm pretty sure if you play the guys I have quoted in a bo101 I don't think you will get a closed results VS them specially on full rdm maps. That's only my opinion. I' d say until top 12 it's fair, then for others you could definetly get in too
Beside that I agree with your post.

I said I wasnt here to judge who is top 16. I know im not better than them, but I know im not worst. Can you say how many tournaments have they won in the last years? 0 is the answer. I wouldnt fight for winning the tournament, I would just fight to win some money to keep playing this.

 

How is the way the top 16 was decided relevant to the question that LaaaaaN raises that there should be qualifiers?

 

How is the way the top 16 was decided relevant to the question that LaaaaaN raises that there should be qualifiers?

It's relevant as the option for qualifiers, or not, was decided by the sponsor. Continuing to harp on it "for this tournament" is irrelevant. I would respectfully suggest (again) that we create a new thread to discuss the merits of participant selection for future events where a choice is possible.

 

Yes, now it's irrelevant. I only wanted to share my opinion, I wasnt pretending to open a discussion.

Let's enjoy the tournament.

Gb

 

I said I wasnt here to judge who is top 16. I know im not better than them, but I know im not worst. Can you say how many tournaments have they won in the last years? 0 is the answer. I wouldnt fight for winning the tournament, I would just fight to win some money to keep playing this.

They have won 0 since 2016 i think cause of one player who is taking everything, even Larry hasn't won a single 1vs1 tourney in his aoc career but he is still consider as top 2 so just looking at who won the tourney is not really the best thing to do in my opinion.
But it's true few top players have a kind of "immunity" due to their popularity or from past tourneys achievments and they are still consider around top 10 when they actually aren't anymore. Anyway keep practicing vs those top players laaann and i'm sure you will improve even more and will get there. Vamos!

 

Is this a joke? Or are you new? As I said, in the 3rd group of players, which is the 6-30 top players there is not any difference.
Do you remember Stark beating TheYo in the first round of KotD? Or Miguels performance in HC1? Me beating Tim 3-0 in one hour and so many many many many others examples?

The dude you are responding to clearly has no idea what's going on, really low reading comprehension

 

Most people who are complaining here might have voted in this thread. There is no absolutely perfect way. There will always be 1-2 people who were very close to cut off line.

Below thread is from Jan 2019

What is/are your preferred seeding methods?

With a small discussion going on about the seeding in KotD2, I was wondering what your guys opinion on seeding are. What do you think is the most fair and accurate way to seed teams? I'll give a bit more explanation to the options in the poll: 1. Elo based system: Could be a system where it...

www.aoezone.net

View attachment 167330

98 votes PogChamp. I guess this finishes the discussion lol

 

Just imagined make a short QF happen same settings for potential contenders.
Probably nobody knows the settings before announcement.(water mixed maps, Dm included)
As far as i know some players are lack of knowledge,inexperience and dislike those formats even never ever played Dm matches didn't
make a correct eligible list.
I think Top 12~25 place are very flexible basically beat each other whenever it defend on their specific HM, daily conditions , some factors happens.

Anyway Key point is only invitational tourney deprive the possibilities to get in major tourneys.
Laan,Stork,Fire(tbh,he is quite underrated.) complaining those things for sure.
If every tourneys taking place for up to 50~80% invitational who gonna fight for desperate small spot forever?
"Giving a chance for few tickets before major event" is core. Players will fight for gloriously and won't complain anymore.

 

For Laaaan, Dracont and others who complain that they are not in this top 16. You know why? because you're not considered to be good enough to compete with those guys yet..

I think everyone already knows this is absurd, but for some funny numbers:

LaaaaaN vs. MSC qualifiers in $ games 2019:
- total maps won: 9-8 (1-6 vs. #1-10, 8-2 vs. #11-16)

DauT vs. MSC qualifiers in $ games 2019:
- total maps won: 7-22 (4-20 vs. #1-10, 3-2 vs. #11-16)

in another shared but not qualified opponent Yinghua, DauT is 1-3, LaaaaaN is 5-4.

I love DauT as much as anyone but how are we ever supposed to get any new players at the top when the top-10 is just petrified into existence?

 

I love DauT as much as anyone but how are we ever supposed to get any new players at the top when the top-10 is just petrified into existence?

Wouldn't it be better to ask those players who voted Daut in top 16? Memb did not hand pick these 16 player, it was voted by a group of players.

 

Wouldn't it be better to ask those players who voted Daut in top 16? Memb did not hand pick these 16 player, it was voted by a group of players.

The problem is much more about the format than the rankings themselves, although there are some glaring issues if you look at actual recent performances.

The qualification tourneys were a huge innovation in tournament format, they gave opportunities to a lot of upcoming players while eliminating the awful Ro64 / Ro32 squash matches that we had in the old days. (Remember when Viper had to play ElQuark, MadMax, and Pedro in Bo5s just to make it to the Ro16?)

So IMO qualifications should be expanded rather than eliminated. They're absolutely more work, so I think it's important to publicly recognize how important they are and criticize tournaments that leave them out. Otherwise, nobody will bother to run them and the whole community will suffer, as they're surely more work than they're worth in terms of viewership. Tragedy of the commons.

 

@patao

- One still has to draw the line one way or another about selecting 16 people who will play in qualifiers. This is what Laaan was complaining about, in his he is in top 16.

- Do the selection in an objective and unbiased way based on current ELO + past tournament performance ---->> people complain and suggest to top experienced players

- Ask the players about their own biased and subjective ranking ---->> people still complain becuse the result doesn't fit their view

 

For the guys who get 2300, 2400 + ratings your performance in the qualifying stage is all that actually shows your current level, activity and preparation.

really ? dont think so, check my recent quali games both nac2 and hc, so i guess its nothing to do about it, anyways all 16 players are amazing and im looking fwd great games and a great tourney !

 

Qualification stages help the community improve together and prepare the next generation of top players. Also, it helps smaller streamers get reps in on some casting that bigger streamers might not care as much about.

I suggest that we start thinking of tournament funding in this way. 1 portion for the main league and 1 (very small portion) for Qualification stages that can be run and casted by smaller streamers with a prizepool from the main tournament. In a tournament like this you could have 12 invited players and 4 from any number of qualifiers that will really help the trickle down both in streaming revenue and in player skill improvement.

That being said, I do want to thank the sponsor and people running this event, nothing is perfect and we all are improving and building this thing together! mad props on getting this much prizepool and these amazing players!

 

@patao

- One still has to draw the line one way or another about selecting 16 people who will play in qualifiers. This is what Laaan was complaining about, in his he is in top 16.

- Do the selection in an objective and unbiased way based on current ELO + past tournament performance ---->> people complain and suggest to top experienced players

- Ask the players about their own biased and subjective ranking ---->> people still complain becuse the result doesn't fit their view

The vast majority doesn’t have any issue with how the top 16 are selected (as there is no “best” option) but with the fact that there are no qualifiers.

Moreover, the discussion you always refer to was about seeding, not player selection which is something completely different

 

- One still has to draw the line one way or another about selecting 16 people who will play in qualifiers. This is what Laaan was complaining about, in his he is in top 16.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I think his point was that outside the top 5, the players are really close in skill, so it would be great to have a qualification to decide these spots instead of the tournament being an invitational.
I don't think he's actually complaining about which players are selected, but more that there is a selection in the first place.
Having qualifiers for at least some spots would be better way to select players than just selecting them based on people's perception of them, as they would actually deserve to get in the tournament.