We had recently huge discussion among the Arena community whether walls should be 900/1800 HP in feudal, because of the new very common trush meta. Majority of players seems to enjoy the old Arena with 1800 walls, most of the negative comments were referring to trush
1) being strategy from somewhere else, not really requiring any knowledge of Arena meta
2) being very luck based due to the position of resources (mainly stone piles)
3) not being really a strategy to provide too entertaining and skillful games
4) being very 1 dimensional
The conclusion lead to new map Arina with 1800 walls in feudal and this map will be used in the new Arena 2v2 tournament - Titans of Arina and likely in the future tournaments aswell.
If there are so many players that are against trush, we can discuss far bigger arena issue - monks being extremely strong for some civs, without real counter. As far as I know, the unit is the same for last 15+ years. However, 15 years ago there was far worse equipment, way bigger lagg and very small resolution compared to 2018, monks are the units that gained the most from this, but they are still without ANY nerf.
Back to our 4 points against trush, are monks part of Arena meta? Yes. Are they luck based? Yes, by far the most rnd unit in AoE, maybe comparable with arambai 30% accuracy. They provide entertaining and skillful games? No, you need very low skill to make a good smush compared to great skill you need to defend a good smush. And do you really keep enjoying watching games where there are 2 guys with 30 vills, 15 monks and the one with better monk micro (and also luck) wins the fight = the game usually? Are monks 1 dimensional? Obviously.
I know many players, that just hate monks on Arena and therefore not playing it at all, I do believe that nerfing monks would definitely help arena to grow.
And last thing, Arena is played with non mirror civs mostly, trush is the best (and only) chance to win games in some matchups. If you nerf trush, you heavily nerf bad civs = boost better civs, usually good monk civs.
Please, comment if you'd like monks to be nerfed and how.
My ideas:
1) Monks base cost will be 150 gold. Why? The best counter unit for monks are scouts, however sanctity is very cheap upgrade and for 45 hp monks you generally need LCs, that cost tons of food. If a LC kills monk, it's dead, if LC gets converted, enemy gains it. With 80 food+150/50 for LC upgrade and a need for a barax, LCs are quite more expensive than monks. However, if you send 6 LCs vs 6 monks, its quite unlikely you'll win the fight, enemy will likely gets at least 3 converts = still better fight for him, wins the fight and even cost effective.
2) Every civ will have heresy and it will cost 500 gold. Vs a standard 1tc castle monk rush, you mostly have to defend without heresy even if your civ has it, because it's just too expensive. With cheaper heresy, the game will be less readable for smusher, usually he just needs few spears and be fine vs LCs, this way there's an option for kts + heresy defence, xbow + heresy, LS..
3) Sanctity and Fervor will cost 300 gold instead of 140/120. Make it a decision, not a no brainer upgrades any time you make 3+ monks.
4) Redemption will cost 750 gold, instead of 475. It's such an important upgrade both in castle and in imp, maybe the most important upgrade on Arena. This way, you convert 1 mangonel and already the upgrade is worth. You force enemy to delete 2 mangonels, and it's worth. In imp, vs onagers, bbc and those units its ridiculously cheap.
5) Theocracy 400 gold instead of 200. For a big group of monks, again - ridiculously good for the prize.
6) Block printing 650 gold instead of 200. I mean, +3 range for 200 gold?
7) Illumination 300 gold instead of 120, similar story as other upgrades, not as OP as block printing, but again extremely cheap for its value.
8) Burmese - remove the discount on the monk techs, give them heresy as to any other civ. They gonna profit a lot from gaining heresy, loosing 50% discount is definitely more important for them though. But, they aren't loosing much on Arabia and this is only heavily nerfing their Arena (as absolutely needed, cause OP arambais + OP monks + onagers + OP wood eco + relics bonus is basically unstoppable).
9) Make faith and herbal medicine any useful, maybe? Faith is one of the most expensive ups in the game, giving you extremely little, I used the upgrade once in my 3 - 4k arena games. Herbal medicine isn't as expensive, but again I don't know why it cost more than block printing + illumination together. Basically useless upgrades, don't see why to keep them in the game. Give them usage, or remove them.
10) Last option is to reduce the randomness of monks and move whole conversion range time few seconds higher, but that's tackling more strats like 2x monastery + boom vs LCs while the smush + pikes + mango combo isn't tackled that much there. Still, at least reducing the randomness by adding few more secs to min conversion time seems like a good move anyways.
If it was up to me, I'd apply all those changes, however those are only ideas and I can see some changes being applied, some not, some reduced. I'd like some changes though.
1) being strategy from somewhere else, not really requiring any knowledge of Arena meta
2) being very luck based due to the position of resources (mainly stone piles)
3) not being really a strategy to provide too entertaining and skillful games
4) being very 1 dimensional
The conclusion lead to new map Arina with 1800 walls in feudal and this map will be used in the new Arena 2v2 tournament - Titans of Arina and likely in the future tournaments aswell.
If there are so many players that are against trush, we can discuss far bigger arena issue - monks being extremely strong for some civs, without real counter. As far as I know, the unit is the same for last 15+ years. However, 15 years ago there was far worse equipment, way bigger lagg and very small resolution compared to 2018, monks are the units that gained the most from this, but they are still without ANY nerf.
Back to our 4 points against trush, are monks part of Arena meta? Yes. Are they luck based? Yes, by far the most rnd unit in AoE, maybe comparable with arambai 30% accuracy. They provide entertaining and skillful games? No, you need very low skill to make a good smush compared to great skill you need to defend a good smush. And do you really keep enjoying watching games where there are 2 guys with 30 vills, 15 monks and the one with better monk micro (and also luck) wins the fight = the game usually? Are monks 1 dimensional? Obviously.
I know many players, that just hate monks on Arena and therefore not playing it at all, I do believe that nerfing monks would definitely help arena to grow.
And last thing, Arena is played with non mirror civs mostly, trush is the best (and only) chance to win games in some matchups. If you nerf trush, you heavily nerf bad civs = boost better civs, usually good monk civs.
Please, comment if you'd like monks to be nerfed and how.
My ideas:
1) Monks base cost will be 150 gold. Why? The best counter unit for monks are scouts, however sanctity is very cheap upgrade and for 45 hp monks you generally need LCs, that cost tons of food. If a LC kills monk, it's dead, if LC gets converted, enemy gains it. With 80 food+150/50 for LC upgrade and a need for a barax, LCs are quite more expensive than monks. However, if you send 6 LCs vs 6 monks, its quite unlikely you'll win the fight, enemy will likely gets at least 3 converts = still better fight for him, wins the fight and even cost effective.
2) Every civ will have heresy and it will cost 500 gold. Vs a standard 1tc castle monk rush, you mostly have to defend without heresy even if your civ has it, because it's just too expensive. With cheaper heresy, the game will be less readable for smusher, usually he just needs few spears and be fine vs LCs, this way there's an option for kts + heresy defence, xbow + heresy, LS..
3) Sanctity and Fervor will cost 300 gold instead of 140/120. Make it a decision, not a no brainer upgrades any time you make 3+ monks.
4) Redemption will cost 750 gold, instead of 475. It's such an important upgrade both in castle and in imp, maybe the most important upgrade on Arena. This way, you convert 1 mangonel and already the upgrade is worth. You force enemy to delete 2 mangonels, and it's worth. In imp, vs onagers, bbc and those units its ridiculously cheap.
5) Theocracy 400 gold instead of 200. For a big group of monks, again - ridiculously good for the prize.
6) Block printing 650 gold instead of 200. I mean, +3 range for 200 gold?
7) Illumination 300 gold instead of 120, similar story as other upgrades, not as OP as block printing, but again extremely cheap for its value.
8) Burmese - remove the discount on the monk techs, give them heresy as to any other civ. They gonna profit a lot from gaining heresy, loosing 50% discount is definitely more important for them though. But, they aren't loosing much on Arabia and this is only heavily nerfing their Arena (as absolutely needed, cause OP arambais + OP monks + onagers + OP wood eco + relics bonus is basically unstoppable).
9) Make faith and herbal medicine any useful, maybe? Faith is one of the most expensive ups in the game, giving you extremely little, I used the upgrade once in my 3 - 4k arena games. Herbal medicine isn't as expensive, but again I don't know why it cost more than block printing + illumination together. Basically useless upgrades, don't see why to keep them in the game. Give them usage, or remove them.
10) Last option is to reduce the randomness of monks and move whole conversion range time few seconds higher, but that's tackling more strats like 2x monastery + boom vs LCs while the smush + pikes + mango combo isn't tackled that much there. Still, at least reducing the randomness by adding few more secs to min conversion time seems like a good move anyways.
If it was up to me, I'd apply all those changes, however those are only ideas and I can see some changes being applied, some not, some reduced. I'd like some changes though.
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