Megarandom = Megastandardised?

[jacobchip]

Hello.

I usually play closed maps, but because of matchmaking I tend to also play a lot of megarandom too. I used to enjoy megarandom, but feel the map is failing to do what it says on the tin -- be random.

It feels that the map generations always fall into one of three categories: arabia, baltic, or acropolis. These are usually supplemented by groups of three sheep, large patches of deer, and often areas of shallows or flat empty terrain. It is extremely rare to get anything that is unexpected or even plays differently to standard arabia.

I really enjoyed watching the hyperrandom tournament a few weeks ago. I think that the different number of resources per tree, tile, and herdable probably wouldn't fly in a ranked pool, but I think that megarandom would really benefit from trying to emulate the excellent hyperrandom scripts.

 

[HongeyKong]

Making it wildly random is super ez, its more about fair / fun in ranked games I guess.

 

[jacobchip]

Making it wildly random is super ez, its more about fair / fun in ranked games I guess.

Sure. I just think that it is has gone much too far in the direction of standardising megarandom to the extent that every map feels like a clone of arabia/acropolis/baltic.

I think you can also make a much more varied map script fair (as hyperrandom showed).

 

[LowEloNobody]

I think they should just put BaziRandom on the ladder

 

[T90Official]

Hard disagree on changing the amounts on each resources, I get that it can be fun but it shouldn't be in ranked at all IMO. I would agree that megarandom could have an increased number of generations/situations though, just keep the amount on each resource the same.

 

[A_Red_Raven]

Every map you put on the ladder would be edited so it becomes more similar to other maps. So if hyperrandom goes to the ladder we can only expect to see another arabia-baltic-acropolis.
Then we're going to need an ultra-mega-hyper-random-definitive-thisistheone-final .pdf

 

[Potkeny]

ultra-mega-hyper-random-definitive-thisistheone-final .pdf

That's Bazirandom! :P

 

[oozkan]

Every map you put on the ladder would be edited so it becomes more similar to other maps. So if hyperrandom goes to the ladder we can only expect to see another arabia-baltic-acropolis.
Then we're going to need an ultra-mega-hyper-random-definitive-thisistheone-final .pdf

I fully agree with bolded sentence.

About filename though, you always need version, v65-final.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

Does Megarandom really not generate anything but a tweak on one of those three maps anymore? That would be really sad if true. I remember it being by far the most interesting option to get when I played on the 1v1 ladder because of the variety in terrain, starting units, and surrounding resources. Each game start was a novel situation you had to work out in real time rather than a rote set of moves to execute.

 

[TheCapybara]

It's more complex and varied than OP is suggesting (I'd assume for dramatic effect?), but it is noticeable how rarely a script feels truly unseen. Once you've played MR enough times, you get a feel for what the map is likely to be after a little bit of scouting.

 

[Paint]

I have had similar experience for a long time on mega random. there are very few different map styles as jacobchip mentioned, I would add a "land nomad" map to that list but it's still not very random... At this point "Random Map" is way more random then Mega Random.

 

[jacobchip]

Thanks for your thoughts! Everyone seems to agree that there is a problem with megarandom and I really hope that the map will become more diverse in the future.

Just for avoidance of doubt: I am not advocating for random costs in megarandom as I think it would be unpopular overall, even though it would be fun to have it happen very rarely (i.e. 2% chance).

 

[LowEloNobody]

Thanks for your thoughts! Everyone seems to agree that there is a problem with megarandom and I really hope that the map will become more diverse in the future.

Just for avoidance of doubt: I am not advocating for random costs in megarandom as I think it would be unpopular overall, even though it would be fun to have it happen very rarely (i.e. 2% chance).

I love random costs, but you either have to have it as a defined map so people expect it or never at all. If you put it in 2% of the time, it has the same effect as being every time because you always have to scout the resource values

 

[The Bloodless]

Just put hyperrandom in and problem solved. Megarandom is boring

 

[lecracheursagacite]

It's more complex and varied than OP is suggesting (I'd assume for dramatic effect?), but it is noticeable how rarely a script feels truly unseen. Once you've played MR enough times, you get a feel for what the map is likely to be after a little bit of scouting.

Well I would say that is still pretty unideal. I guess I didn't play an extreme amount of it but it always felt like it took a solid 3-5 minutes at least to really get any strong sense of what things were and frequently those things were not immediately reminiscent of a certain base map.

 

[Lord_patito]

I agree on this one. It's no secret that I'm a fan of hyperrandom (I haven't played Bazirandom), but I don't enjoy megarandom at all.

While I understand that a completely random map might be not super competitive, I feel that megarandom it's just not random enough. Almost all the time it seems a copycat of a well stablished map (arabia, baltic, four lakes, etc) with slight changes. And the issue (at least for me) it's that these changes only make the map less competitive, but not funnier. It's not a super wild map, but rather a regular map with some weird things.

Atthis point I will prefer either a really random map, or not having a map that's supposed to be random, but it's not

 

[Paint]

I don't understand this strive for only boring "balanced" maps in ranked ladder it's not like it actually matters for something and it's just there to be fun. Yes there need to be some balanced maps but Nomad and Mega Random (and some other maps) should be maximised for diverse fun gameplay not balance.

 

[TheCapybara]

I don't have a problem with striving for 'balanced' maps for ranked ladder. One of the big complaints about MR is often that it's actively imbalanced as it stands 11 (e.g. players sometimes have wildly different access to resources, relics, wallability etc.).

 

[Lot]

What is Bazirandom exactly?

 

[A_Red_Raven]

Bazirandom is a map created by Bazidrown and it's as far as I now the most random map generation possible., is a variation of zetnus hyperrandom.
you can check it here:

Mods Single - Age of Empires

www.ageofempires.com

 

[Snizl]

I don't understand this strive for only boring "balanced" maps in ranked ladder it's not like it actually matters for something and it's just there to be fun. Yes there need to be some balanced maps but Nomad and Mega Random (and some other maps) should be maximised for diverse fun gameplay not balance.

Strong disagree on that one. For team games that might work, but for 1v1s it simply feels awful. Even on current nomad you still sometimes have games that you lose because you place your tc in the middle of the map, but somehow it still ends up in the corner of the island, you are close to an enemy korean player and have no access to stone. It's rare enough that it doesnt matter for the map balancing, but I can tell you that losing for such reason definitely is not fun.

I definitely agree that Megrandom is too predictable. If you are having few woodlines around your TC but a big hill, you can already expect there to be big woodlines in the center. If there is no such hill, or sand/swamp terrain nearby you can be sure there are big woodlines in the corner, etc.

I like hyperrandom, but the base version that was played in the tournament would be awful on the ranked ladder. It wasn't rare that you've seen a match where one player had a very clear advantage and that just does not create a fun experience. Luckily there is a hyperrandom "fair" map included in the same download, which might be a bit less random in the way it creates terrain, but definitely is much fairer and more fun to play.

 

[Paint]

Even on current nomad you still sometimes have games that you lose because you place your TC in the middle of the map, but somehow it still ends up in the corner of the island, you are close to an enemy Korean player and have no access to stone. It's rare enough that it doesn't matter for the map balancing, but I can tell you that losing for such reason definitely is not fun.

I think this shows that even the boring balanced version will still get banned by people that hate randomness and that is fine, but a map should not be optimised for perople that will ban the map anyway.

 

[Snizl]

I think this shows that even the boring balanced version will still get banned by people that hate randomness and that is fine, but a map should not be optimised for perople that will ban the map anyway.

nowhere did i say, that i ban the map. i love nomad, i love mega random. I highly prefer adapting over knowing that there are only two viable buildorders. But when you get into a situation where you are at a major disadvantage because of the map alone it simply isnt going to be a fun game, so making the maps more balanced does not reduce but rather increase fun. Yes, mega random isnt random enough, but hyper random fair rarely feels like a map loss, so balancing isnt the reason for that. Though some of the scout options in hyper random can be pretty bullshit and imo shouldnt be a thing if it actually hits the ranked ladder.

 

[lecracheursagacite]

nowhere did i say, that i ban the map. i love nomad, i love mega random. I highly prefer adapting over knowing that there are only two viable buildorders. But when you get into a situation where you are at a major disadvantage because of the map alone it simply isnt going to be a fun game, so making the maps more balanced does not reduce but rather increase fun. Yes, mega random isnt random enough, but hyper random fair rarely feels like a map loss, so balancing isnt the reason for that. Though some of the scout options in hyper random can be pretty bullshit and imo shouldnt be a thing if it actually hits the ranked ladder.

Which ones in particular? I've never played Hyper Random so curious how crazy it gets compared to what I've seen in old MR.

 

[Snizl]

Which ones in particular? I've never played Hyper Random so curious how crazy it gets compared to what I've seen in old MR.

you can start with pretty much any unit in the game files. the worst one i saw was an archer of the eyes in the tournament. i believe it was equivalent or slightly better than an arbalest. so even when you had your own scout at home that could not stop the opponent from killing your villagers.
there are many options that are impossible to defend with anything but the scout, like elite karambit warriors, elite tarkans etc. those at least you can defend, but it then becomes a game of "if i scout too much my eco might die to opponents scout"