Market Trading Vs Selling: An Analysis

[SirGibson]

That was very informational! Two thumbs up!

 

[TriRem]

That was very informational! Two thumbs up!

It's also very stupid.

 

[k_the_foodie]

@RicoJay13 have you also considered the fact that maybe pros have tried this in the past but it didn't work? The meta is what it is for a reason (albeit it does change a lot, just a year ago Eagle Warriors weren't common in castle age until DauT tried them out successfully).

All hail king DauT

 

[Celar]

Man. I can't help but think this is a troll post... Woulnd't you think watching any high level game is proof enough? I've tried this so many times in 18+ voobly games, and u get n ogold at all, even with 100 lumberjacks, 40 farmers, Guilds and perfectly efficient farms and lumbercamp + imp eco Upgrades compared to trading, even on a shitty map for trade...

 

[Dirkjan]

Man. I can't help but think this is a troll post... Woulnd't you think watching any high level game is proof enough? I've tried this so many times in 18+ voobly games, and u get n ogold at all, even with 100 lumberjacks, 40 farmers, Guilds and perfectly efficient farms and lumbercamp + imp eco Upgrades compared to trading, even on a shitty map for trade...

The fact that he might be wrong does not make it a troll post, he clearly put effort in it

 

[Celar]

The fact that he might be wrong does not make it a troll post, he clearly put effort in it

Also, an easier way to test this than put all this effort into the video: Just put a villager to chop Wood for 1 hour. replace LCs every 2 tiles and sell all the Wood for 17 gold each 100. Then use a trade cart for 1 hour. See what grants you the most gold *Spoiler, trade cart will grant u roughly 5 times more gold. (Maybe half if there are 200 carts in the trade line)

But you dont need Math or testing. Experience is enough to tell that its not true, though

 

[Seb1234]

Also, an easier way to test this than put all this effort into the video: Just put a villager to chop Wood for 1 hour. replace LCs every 2 tiles and sell all the Wood for 17 gold each 100. Then use a trade cart for 1 hour. See what grants you the most gold *Spoiler, trade cart will grant u roughly 5 times more gold. (Maybe half if there are 200 carts in the trade line)

But you dont need Math or testing. Experience is enough to tell that its not true, though

Testing it for 1 hour isnt too useful when he himself said it is useful for the first 14 min. I guess he is right in a scenario where the surplus of a few thousand ressources wins you het game in these minutes.

However he is wrong in suggesting trading is hardly ever profitable while its probably the other way around

 

[Manu]

Wut is happening to the straya population ?
forgetting how to be canadian ? (sorry christ)

Anyway, here's my 2 cents : please change your microphone ^^

 

Also, an easier way to test this than put all this effort into the video: Just put a villager to chop Wood for 1 hour. replace LCs every 2 tiles and sell all the Wood for 17 gold each 100. Then use a trade cart for 1 hour. See what grants you the most gold *Spoiler, trade cart will grant u roughly 5 times more gold. (Maybe half if there are 200 carts in the trade line)

But you dont need Math or testing. Experience is enough to tell that its not true, though

You're not addressing the actual points he made or adding anything to the discussion. Good job not watching the video

 

[ChriSt]

Wut is happening to the straya population ?
forgetting how to be canadian ? (sorry christ)

Anyway, here's my 2 cents : please change your microphone ^^

I don't think it was too harsh considering the video and the malay video.

Nothing worst than someone who has no idea what hes talking about, is essentially a beginner and is making condescending claims in quirky cringe videos. That bad behavior is encouraged by people like Toracaca

Being a beginner is ok, everyone starts a beginner and everyone is a beginner at something, the issue is when you make claims in a condescending way when there's a meta established/developed by 20 years of experience.

Then, you become a tuna.

and yes, im surrounded by australian bogans.

 

[Shmolagin]

Why must you dig yourself in when everyone more skilled than you agrees that your assertion is categorically incorrect. I have killed 17xx HD players 3v1 and still consider myself to be a mediocre player.

 

[Manu]

the issue is when you make claims in a condescending way.

and yes, im surrounded by australian bogans.

Actually I definitely agreed with your post, he was condescending in his video, he's getting what he seeds X)
But I was just surprised by it coming from ya

and yes, im surrounded by australian bogans.

Straya rules !!

 

[rustyknivess]

Why must you dig yourself in when everyone more skilled than you agrees that your assertion is categorically incorrect. I have killed 17xx HD players 3v1 and still consider myself to be a mediocre player.

yup i´ve done the exact thing myself!

 

[Shmolagin]

yup i´ve done the exact thing myself!

It can be really funny to do because many HD players would rather accuse you of hacking rather than admit how much they suck.

 

[RicoJay13]

yup i´ve done the exact thing myself!

I'll bring two 1700HD players anytime anywhere for a 3v1.

 

[RicoJay13]

Why must you dig yourself in when everyone more skilled than you agrees that your assertion is categorically incorrect. I have killed 17xx HD players 3v1 and still consider myself to be a mediocre player.

I'll bring two 1700HD players anytime anywhere for a 3v1.

 

[RicoJay13]

I was playing the role. Trying to incite a conversation. No need to take everything personally guys. I'm well aware I'm up against 20 years of meta.

 

[n0brain]

I was playing the role. Trying to incite a conversation. No need to take everything personally guys. I'm well aware I'm up against 20 years of meta.

ure also up against basic math. sorry, breaking couple thousand years of math will need a bit more effort

as u urself pointed out at the start the whole formula massively depends on two key variables:
income per trip and speed of a tradecart. in AoE2 gold per trip is calculated with an formula where it EXPONENTIALLY depends on distance between markets (value per tile varies per mapsize. tiny mapsize max gives about 7% less than ladakris max). and ur income will increase quite decently from cleaning that messy route from ur video, dropping that 89% slowdown quite significantly.

edit:
some previous findings for the gold per trip, from some video about this. not sure where it was from though, seemed to be accurate though:
gold per trip formula:
Distance * (Distance / (250 * (MapSize / 120)) + 0.1)
with mapsize for this formula: LudiKRIS = 1000; Giant = 500; Tiny = 250

 

[TriRem]

some previous findings for the gold per trip, from some video about this. not sure where it was from though, seemed to be accurate though:
gold per trip formula:
Distance * (Distance / (250 * (MapSize / 120)) + 0.1)
with mapsize for this formula: LudiKRIS = 1000; Giant = 500; Tiny = 250

This is the actual formula, with d the distance between markets. For trade carts the work rate/unit speed can be considered a constant of 0.3795 due to caravan increasing the work rate by 50% as well as the speed.

This is the gold carried per trip, so divide by the time to do a round trip to get the gold rate.

 

[RicoJay13]

Cleaning up the obstructions doesn't change the 89% much at all in simulation. Its your own and your ally carts bumping that causes the 5-6 minute round trip time. I would be curious to see recorded games where someone showed the actual round trip time either starting out trading or fully trade boomed. This shouldn't be hard for anyone who trades on the reg to verify. And then I can plug that into the spreadsheet and we can give a more accurate ROI.

 

[RicoJay13]

This is the actual formula, with d the distance between markets. For trade carts the work rate/unit speed can be considered a constant of 0.3795 due to caravan increasing the work rate by 50% as well as the speed.

This is the gold carried per trip, so divide by the time to do a round trip to get the gold rate.

My google doc does that calculation and I have no dispute with it. But as I said in the video, the bump and grind cranks the round trip up by around 89%.

 

[Henkdesupernerd]

Cleaning up the obstructions doesn't change the 89% much at all in simulation. Its your own and your ally carts bumping that causes the 5-6 minute round trip time. I would be curious to see recorded games where someone showed the actual round trip time either starting out trading or fully trade boomed. This shouldn't be hard for anyone who trades on the reg to verify. And then I can plug that into the spreadsheet and we can give a more accurate ROI.

if it' s your own tradecarts causing the problem, then there is no problem when you add your first tradecart (since there are no other interferring tadecarts yet). So your first tradecart will be considerably more efficient than the 'avg lategame trade carts situation'. maybe its even so much more efficient that it will be viable compared to selling resources!

 

[TriRem]

My google doc does that calculation and I have no dispute with it. But as I said in the video, the bump and grind cranks the round trip up by around 89%.

Assuming your numbers are correct, the bumping will only reduce trade efficiency once everyone has full trade. Yet you are making the argument that not trading is more efficient in short term (your 14 minutes window), but at this point the bumping is mostly irrelevant, and trade is much more effective than what you consider.

 

[RicoJay13]

if it' s your own tradecarts causing the problem, then there is no problem when you add your first tradecart (since there are no other interferring tadecarts yet). So your first tradecart will be considerably more efficient than the 'avg lategame trade carts situation'. maybe its even so much more efficient that it will be viable compared to selling resources!

I simulated each of my AI allies having 15 trade carts. I wish there was an easy way of having them ramp into trade a few carts at a time simultaneously as I was. Using 15 was an approximation, an average to help factor in the bump and grind. It will be faster early when theres few carts, but slower later. Don't forget that even your first trade cart might bump into friendly trade carts, and your own trade carts since you can create around 12 before your first cart even reaches your friendly market (thus first cart will bump amd grind with 12+ even in the first and most efficient trip.

 

[RicoJay13]

Assuming your numbers are correct, the bumping will only reduce trade efficiency once everyone has full trade. Yet you are making the argument that not trading is more efficient in short term (your 14 minutes window), but at this point the bumping is mostly irrelevant, and trade is much more effective than what you consider.

See my response above that I assumed 15 friendly carts to average the bump and grind.