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Market Trading Vs Selling: An Analysis

  • Thread starter United StatesRicoJay13
  • Start date Aug 12, 2018
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United StatesSirGibson

Member
Jul 31, 2018
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  • Aug 21, 2018
  • #51
That was very informational! Two thumbs up!
 
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TriRem

FranceTriRem

Longswordman
Dec 13, 2015
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  • Aug 21, 2018
  • #52
SirGibson said:
That was very informational! Two thumbs up!
Click to expand...
It's also very stupid.
 
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K

Indiak_the_foodie

Well Known Pikeman
Apr 24, 2014
287
278
78
  • Aug 21, 2018
  • #53
Tocaraca said:
@RicoJay13 have you also considered the fact that maybe pros have tried this in the past but it didn't work? The meta is what it is for a reason (albeit it does change a lot, just a year ago Eagle Warriors weren't common in castle age until DauT tried them out successfully).
Click to expand...
All hail king DauT
 
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C

UnknownCelar

Member
Apr 23, 2013
53
1
8
30
Norway
  • Aug 21, 2018
  • #54
Man. I can't help but think this is a troll post... Woulnd't you think watching any high level game is proof enough? I've tried this so many times in 18+ voobly games, and u get n ogold at all, even with 100 lumberjacks, 40 farmers, Guilds and perfectly efficient farms and lumbercamp + imp eco Upgrades compared to trading, even on a shitty map for trade...
 
Dirkjan

NetherlandsDirkjan

Halberdier
Oct 19, 2014
281
427
98
  • Aug 21, 2018
  • #55
Celar said:
Man. I can't help but think this is a troll post... Woulnd't you think watching any high level game is proof enough? I've tried this so many times in 18+ voobly games, and u get n ogold at all, even with 100 lumberjacks, 40 farmers, Guilds and perfectly efficient farms and lumbercamp + imp eco Upgrades compared to trading, even on a shitty map for trade...
Click to expand...

The fact that he might be wrong does not make it a troll post, he clearly put effort in it
 
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C

UnknownCelar

Member
Apr 23, 2013
53
1
8
30
Norway
  • Aug 21, 2018
  • #56
Dirkjan said:
The fact that he might be wrong does not make it a troll post, he clearly put effort in it
Click to expand...

Also, an easier way to test this than put all this effort into the video: Just put a villager to chop Wood for 1 hour. replace LCs every 2 tiles and sell all the Wood for 17 gold each 100. Then use a trade cart for 1 hour. See what grants you the most gold *Spoiler, trade cart will grant u roughly 5 times more gold. (Maybe half if there are 200 carts in the trade line)

But you dont need Math or testing. Experience is enough to tell that its not true, though:smile:
 
S

AustriaSeb1234

Known Member
Mar 28, 2018
157
246
48
  • Aug 21, 2018
  • #57
Celar said:
Also, an easier way to test this than put all this effort into the video: Just put a villager to chop Wood for 1 hour. replace LCs every 2 tiles and sell all the Wood for 17 gold each 100. Then use a trade cart for 1 hour. See what grants you the most gold *Spoiler, trade cart will grant u roughly 5 times more gold. (Maybe half if there are 200 carts in the trade line)

But you dont need Math or testing. Experience is enough to tell that its not true, though:smile:
Click to expand...

Testing it for 1 hour isnt too useful when he himself said it is useful for the first 14 min. I guess he is right in a scenario where the surplus of a few thousand ressources wins you het game in these minutes.

However he is wrong in suggesting trading is hardly ever profitable while its probably the other way around
 
Manu

AustraliaManu

Longswordman
Mar 5, 2015
460
547
108
  • Aug 22, 2018
  • #58
Wut is happening to the straya population ?
forgetting how to be canadian ? (sorry christ)

Anyway, here's my 2 cents : please change your microphone ^^
 
D

Guest
  • Aug 22, 2018
  • #59
Celar said:
Also, an easier way to test this than put all this effort into the video: Just put a villager to chop Wood for 1 hour. replace LCs every 2 tiles and sell all the Wood for 17 gold each 100. Then use a trade cart for 1 hour. See what grants you the most gold *Spoiler, trade cart will grant u roughly 5 times more gold. (Maybe half if there are 200 carts in the trade line)

But you dont need Math or testing. Experience is enough to tell that its not true, though:smile:
Click to expand...
You're not addressing the actual points he made or adding anything to the discussion. Good job not watching the video
 
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C

AustraliaChriSt

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2010
510
438
68
  • Aug 22, 2018
  • #60
Manu said:
Wut is happening to the straya population ?
forgetting how to be canadian ? (sorry christ)

Anyway, here's my 2 cents : please change your microphone ^^
Click to expand...

I don't think it was too harsh considering the video and the malay video.

Nothing worst than someone who has no idea what hes talking about, is essentially a beginner and is making condescending claims in quirky cringe videos. That bad behavior is encouraged by people like Toracaca :roflmao:

Being a beginner is ok, everyone starts a beginner and everyone is a beginner at something, the issue is when you make claims in a condescending way when there's a meta established/developed by 20 years of experience.

Then, you become a tuna.

and yes, im surrounded by australian bogans.
 
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Shmolagin

United StatesShmolagin

Well Known Pikeman
Jun 14, 2014
1,437
248
78
  • Aug 22, 2018
  • #61
Why must you dig yourself in when everyone more skilled than you agrees that your assertion is categorically incorrect. I have killed 17xx HD players 3v1 and still consider myself to be a mediocre player.
 
Manu

AustraliaManu

Longswordman
Mar 5, 2015
460
547
108
  • Aug 22, 2018
  • #62
ChriSt said:
the issue is when you make claims in a condescending way.

and yes, im surrounded by australian bogans.
Click to expand...

Actually I definitely agreed with your post, he was condescending in his video, he's getting what he seeds X)
But I was just surprised by it coming from ya

ChriSt said:
and yes, im surrounded by australian bogans.
Click to expand...

Straya rules !! :roflmao:
 
rustyknivess

Netherlandsrustyknivess

Known Member
Aug 10, 2014
331
219
58
  • Aug 22, 2018
  • #63
Shmolagin said:
Why must you dig yourself in when everyone more skilled than you agrees that your assertion is categorically incorrect. I have killed 17xx HD players 3v1 and still consider myself to be a mediocre player.
Click to expand...
yup i´ve done the exact thing myself!
 
Shmolagin

United StatesShmolagin

Well Known Pikeman
Jun 14, 2014
1,437
248
78
  • Aug 22, 2018
  • #64
rustyknivess said:
yup i´ve done the exact thing myself!
Click to expand...
It can be really funny to do because many HD players would rather accuse you of hacking rather than admit how much they suck.
 
RicoJay13

United StatesRicoJay13

Well Known Pikeman
Jul 21, 2018
500
313
78
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #65
rustyknivess said:
yup i´ve done the exact thing myself!
Click to expand...
I'll bring two 1700HD players anytime anywhere for a 3v1.
 
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RicoJay13

United StatesRicoJay13

Well Known Pikeman
Jul 21, 2018
500
313
78
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #66
Shmolagin said:
Why must you dig yourself in when everyone more skilled than you agrees that your assertion is categorically incorrect. I have killed 17xx HD players 3v1 and still consider myself to be a mediocre player.
Click to expand...
I'll bring two 1700HD players anytime anywhere for a 3v1.
 
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RicoJay13

United StatesRicoJay13

Well Known Pikeman
Jul 21, 2018
500
313
78
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #67
I was playing the role. Trying to incite a conversation. No need to take everything personally guys. I'm well aware I'm up against 20 years of meta.
 
n0brain

Germanyn0brain

Longswordman
May 1, 2017
217
500
108
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #68
RicoJay13 said:
I was playing the role. Trying to incite a conversation. No need to take everything personally guys. I'm well aware I'm up against 20 years of meta.
Click to expand...
ure also up against basic math. sorry, breaking couple thousand years of math will need a bit more effort :wink:

as u urself pointed out at the start the whole formula massively depends on two key variables:
income per trip and speed of a tradecart. in AoE2 gold per trip is calculated with an formula where it EXPONENTIALLY depends on distance between markets (value per tile varies per mapsize. tiny mapsize max gives about 7% less than ladakris max). and ur income will increase quite decently from cleaning that messy route from ur video, dropping that 89% slowdown quite significantly.

edit:
some previous findings for the gold per trip, from some video about this. not sure where it was from though, seemed to be accurate though:
gold per trip formula:
Distance * (Distance / (250 * (MapSize / 120)) + 0.1)
with mapsize for this formula: LudiKRIS = 1000; Giant = 500; Tiny = 250
 
Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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TriRem

FranceTriRem

Longswordman
Dec 13, 2015
731
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27
France
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #69
n0brain said:
some previous findings for the gold per trip, from some video about this. not sure where it was from though, seemed to be accurate though:
gold per trip formula:
Distance * (Distance / (250 * (MapSize / 120)) + 0.1)
with mapsize for this formula: LudiKRIS = 1000; Giant = 500; Tiny = 250
Click to expand...
latex.png


This is the actual formula, with d the distance between markets. For trade carts the work rate/unit speed can be considered a constant of 0.3795 due to caravan increasing the work rate by 50% as well as the speed.

This is the gold carried per trip, so divide by the time to do a round trip to get the gold rate.
 
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RicoJay13

United StatesRicoJay13

Well Known Pikeman
Jul 21, 2018
500
313
78
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #70
Cleaning up the obstructions doesn't change the 89% much at all in simulation. Its your own and your ally carts bumping that causes the 5-6 minute round trip time. I would be curious to see recorded games where someone showed the actual round trip time either starting out trading or fully trade boomed. This shouldn't be hard for anyone who trades on the reg to verify. And then I can plug that into the spreadsheet and we can give a more accurate ROI.
 
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RicoJay13

United StatesRicoJay13

Well Known Pikeman
Jul 21, 2018
500
313
78
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #71
TriRem said:
latex.png


This is the actual formula, with d the distance between markets. For trade carts the work rate/unit speed can be considered a constant of 0.3795 due to caravan increasing the work rate by 50% as well as the speed.

This is the gold carried per trip, so divide by the time to do a round trip to get the gold rate.
Click to expand...
My google doc does that calculation and I have no dispute with it. But as I said in the video, the bump and grind cranks the round trip up by around 89%.
 
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Henkdesupernerd

NetherlandsHenkdesupernerd

Longswordman
Feb 5, 2017
558
1,649
108
29
Netherlands
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #72
RicoJay13 said:
Cleaning up the obstructions doesn't change the 89% much at all in simulation. Its your own and your ally carts bumping that causes the 5-6 minute round trip time. I would be curious to see recorded games where someone showed the actual round trip time either starting out trading or fully trade boomed. This shouldn't be hard for anyone who trades on the reg to verify. And then I can plug that into the spreadsheet and we can give a more accurate ROI.
Click to expand...

if it' s your own tradecarts causing the problem, then there is no problem when you add your first tradecart (since there are no other interferring tadecarts yet). So your first tradecart will be considerably more efficient than the 'avg lategame trade carts situation'. maybe its even so much more efficient that it will be viable compared to selling resources!
 
TriRem

FranceTriRem

Longswordman
Dec 13, 2015
731
3,654
113
27
France
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #73
RicoJay13 said:
My google doc does that calculation and I have no dispute with it. But as I said in the video, the bump and grind cranks the round trip up by around 89%.
Click to expand...
Assuming your numbers are correct, the bumping will only reduce trade efficiency once everyone has full trade. Yet you are making the argument that not trading is more efficient in short term (your 14 minutes window), but at this point the bumping is mostly irrelevant, and trade is much more effective than what you consider.
 
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RicoJay13

United StatesRicoJay13

Well Known Pikeman
Jul 21, 2018
500
313
78
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #74
Henkdesupernerd said:
if it' s your own tradecarts causing the problem, then there is no problem when you add your first tradecart (since there are no other interferring tadecarts yet). So your first tradecart will be considerably more efficient than the 'avg lategame trade carts situation'. maybe its even so much more efficient that it will be viable compared to selling resources!
Click to expand...
I simulated each of my AI allies having 15 trade carts. I wish there was an easy way of having them ramp into trade a few carts at a time simultaneously as I was. Using 15 was an approximation, an average to help factor in the bump and grind. It will be faster early when theres few carts, but slower later. Don't forget that even your first trade cart might bump into friendly trade carts, and your own trade carts since you can create around 12 before your first cart even reaches your friendly market (thus first cart will bump amd grind with 12+ even in the first and most efficient trip.
 
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RicoJay13

United StatesRicoJay13

Well Known Pikeman
Jul 21, 2018
500
313
78
  • Apr 16, 2019
  • #75
TriRem said:
Assuming your numbers are correct, the bumping will only reduce trade efficiency once everyone has full trade. Yet you are making the argument that not trading is more efficient in short term (your 14 minutes window), but at this point the bumping is mostly irrelevant, and trade is much more effective than what you consider.
Click to expand...
See my response above that I assumed 15 friendly carts to average the bump and grind.
 
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