Market Trading Vs Selling: An Analysis

[Henkdesupernerd]

here is the map I edited:
these are the changes:
- I removed ponds with fish
- I removed relics
- both players have 1 neutral goldpile (3 tiles)
- I placed 3 markets on Blue's side

I made a 200pop, 250pop and 300pop version; and civs are Teutons for both players.

Obviously the trade is not gonna be very long, but maybe that is counteracted by the lack of allied tradecarts that cause traffic jams.

 

[ZeroEmpires]

I just beat an 18xx on HD without making villagers after clicking to Feudal. I figured, why invest in making villagers for later if I could instead make more military and just kill him now.
I'll post the rec if anyone is interested, I think you guys are playing the game wrong.

 

[green eggs]

I just beat an 18xx on HD without making villagers after clicking to Feudal. I figured, why invest in making villagers for later if I could instead make more military and just kill him now.
I'll post the rec if anyone is interested, I think you guys are playing the game wrong.

Why even build farms if you can just invest that wood into skirmishers and forward outposts and kill your opponent now?

 

[RicoJay13]

View attachment 165997
here is the map I edited:
these are the changes:
- I removed ponds with fish
- I removed relics
- both players have 1 neutral goldpile (3 tiles)
- I placed 3 markets on Blue's side

I made a 200pop, 250pop and 300pop version; and civs are Teutons for both players.

Obviously the trade is not gonna be very long, but maybe that is counteracted by the lack of allied tradecarts that cause traffic jams.

It looks unrealistically difficult to SO in based on a typical 4v4 map where each side is almost always a thin row of forest. Again Im just bringing this up for realism. That map makes even me want to turtle in and set up trade.

We need treaty and an agreement on a minimum say 40 carts you will make. This isnt a monks and mangonels contest.

I agree that 3 markets with no allied carts but in this shorter distance is fine, but your map is too generous to blue's trade route which in most 8p BF maps is a tight corridor between 3-4 players. As I posted in my video, when you/I randomly create a 8p BF map, you would be surprised how many super unfavorable maps for trade get generated. I did not cherry pick bad examples for my video.

 

[TriRem]

Why even build farms if you can just invest that wood into skirmishers and forward outposts and kill your opponent now?

Building farms is a waste of time. I sell the wood and buy food, I get food much faster than you and your farms. Plus I don't have to invest into farm upgrades. If no one crashes the market my strategy wins games 97.3% of the time.

 

[RicoJay13]

Building farms is a waste of time. I sell the wood and buy food, I get food much faster than you and your farms. Plus I don't have to invest into farm upgrades. If no one crashes the market my strategy wins games 97.3% of the time.

Of all people, you have lost your privileges to mock the premise and insult the argument after chickening away from my challenge. I hear visine is good for sensitive eyes.

 

[Henkdesupernerd]

dont worry about that little french guy, he can't help that it is french nature to chicken out Kappa.
Now lets go. I'm in HD lobby
14

 

[_Melkor]

I don't think I've ever seen Viper play BF even remotely close to what he could do if he tried.
He is not the person to watch for BF gameplay. Every time I see him or other top 10 players doing BF it usually ends in me stopping speccing cause its clear they are going to go full yolo with a ridiculous strategy. (actually that ridiculous strategy that has stopped me watching has sometimes been exactly your market burn and 0 trade; and every time I've seen it its always ended in the player not able to push and eventually switching into 1000 hussar vs full halb SO)

 

[green eggs]

Of all people, you have lost your privileges to mock the premise and insult the argument after chickening away from my challenge. I hear visine is good for sensitive eyes.

I challenged Viper once, in order to test my groundbreaking theory of forward mills and lumber camps in dark age to take all your opponent's resources so they don't have any resources so then you win. He didn't turn up to the lobby within five minutes so I unilaterally declared victory. I am therefore the current world #1.

 

[RicoJay13]

dont worry about that little french guy, he can't help that it is french nature to chicken out Kappa.
Now lets go. I'm in HD lobby
14

I am out of pocket for Easter.

 

[ZeroEmpires]

Why even build farms if you can just invest that wood into skirmishers and forward outposts and kill your opponent now?

I didn't build farms man, didn't even build a mill. I'll make the video tonight and post tomorrow, don't worry bby

 

[KolyaKrasotkin]

I just beat an 18xx on HD without making villagers after clicking to Feudal. I figured, why invest in making villagers for later if I could instead make more military and just kill him now.
I'll post the rec if anyone is interested, I think you guys are playing the game wrong.

My guess is Tati-Rush

 

[robo]

Pff ignore this guy. You can definitely take Melkor in a 1v1. Has all the makings of a classic showmatch. Maybe Escape can cast it...

Melkor + Trade vs RicoJay + Science Math

I'm down

 

[Carlini8]

There are probably some good Escape BF games you could watch if you want to see why they all go trade. Those will be the very best in the world playing BF, Suomis home map I believe?

Or you could keep challenge people to a scenario that makes no sense at all.

Your "maths" vs the world best...

You are trying proof by contradiction with completely nonsense fundamentals. 35 Mangadai instantly spawned, buying all trade up front, it just makes no sense I am afraid.

 

[green eggs]

You are trying proof by contradiction with completely nonsense fundamentals.

I assume you're not referring to the actual method of proof by contradiction, but rather to the OP's method of "proving" his claims by contradicting anything anyone else says.

 

[RicoJay13]

There are probably some good Escape BF games you could watch if you want to see why they all go trade. Those will be the very best in the world playing BF, Suomis home map I believe?

Or you could keep challenge people to a scenario that makes no sense at all.

Your "maths" vs the world best...

You are trying proof by contradiction with completely nonsense fundamentals. 35 Mangadai instantly spawned, buying all trade up front, it just makes no sense I am afraid.

How do you typically ramp into trade? Buy one cart every 3 minutes? Or steady production from 3-4 markets? Steady production from 4 markets is a steady investment of around 3k gold worth of rez before a single gold penny of revenue returns. So while yes it isn't all at once in that sense, it's still a lump investment that puts you in debt and you don't break even vs a same pop of vils chopping wood for a full 14 minutes (longer using Trirems math which was 70 carts).

I will watch and learn from any linked pro BF match you send me. What about this one:

Totally Expert and NOT NOOB Black Forest 4v4 - Tyrant vs Aftermath

April Fools suckas!https://www.twitch.tv/t90officialhttps://www.patreon.com/T90Officialhttps://twitter.com/t90officialhttps://www.facebook.com/T90OfficialYou...

youtu.be

 

[Carlini8]

How do you typically ramp into trade? Buy one cart every 3 minutes? Or steady production from 3-4 markets? Steady production from 4 markets is a steady investment of around 3k gold worth of rez before a single gold penny of revenue returns. So while yes it isn't all at once in that sense, it's still a lump investment that puts you in debt and you don't break even vs a same pop of vils chopping wood for a full 14 minutes (longer using Trirems math which was 70 carts).

I will watch and learn from any linked pro BF match you send me. What about this one:

Totally Expert and NOT NOOB Black Forest 4v4 - Tyrant vs Aftermath

April Fools suckas!https://www.twitch.tv/t90officialhttps://www.patreon.com/T90Officialhttps://twitter.com/t90officialhttps://www.facebook.com/T90OfficialYou...

youtu.be

The main point you miss in all of this is that you do not bankrupt yourself to make trade. You make trade with excess res. Army comes first always, if you need those 35 Mangudai right now, you make them. You are simply doing maths that doesn't come into play because experts know what they are doing, they know when to spend. No one spends 3k gold before a trade cart returns.

You can't go into debt in this game. Yes the trade cart investment is negative, but because you make trade while you still have gold miners if you need to make army again, it doesn't matter that you have built 10 trade carts prior because the gold is still coming in from your villagers. It is a transition period where you have both, this is what the pros do.

What I have seen in A LOT of noob games is pretty much the opposite. They wait until they have no gold, oh no, I have no gold to mine anymore, time for trade. That is wrong, that is probably what you have based your opinion on and sure, if you then go and lose your whole army, you are screwed.

Like I said, check Suomi ECL games, often they pick BF as a home map and if it is in ECL you know that it will be high level game play and not noobs or trolling.

 

[gmischa]

Anyone who knows anything about things such as economics or engineering knows that exact mathematical models can serve only as guidelines while real world statistics is used for actual decision making. I remember well that I spoke to this guy from Philips, I am on the physics side of the spectrum, and we were talking about the production of their light bulbs. He told me that almost all decisions were made based on actual experimenting and statistics and I remember well this surprised me very much at the time. I expected that they could just do the physics. Use thermodynamics and material properties to calculate heat flows, temperatures etc but these theoretical calculations simply dont add up in real life situations for "complex" systems. I think I am allowed to say that a game of age of empires is quite a bit more complicated then heat flow through a light bulb of which all properties are known so there is your problem.

 

[ZeroEmpires]

It’s like doing the math on when to replace lumber camps by setting up a scenario where you put 12+ Vills on a single camp. Ignoring the fact that actually splitting them into two camps is much more common because of the unquantifiable property called “potential damage”.

 

[RicoJay13]

The main point you miss in all of this is that you do not bankrupt yourself to make trade. You make trade with excess res. Army comes first always, if you need those 35 Mangudai right now, you make them. You are simply doing maths that doesn't come into play because experts know what they are doing, they know when to spend. No one spends 3k gold before a trade cart returns.

You can't go into debt in this game. Yes the trade cart investment is negative, but because you make trade while you still have gold miners if you need to make army again, it doesn't matter that you have built 10 trade carts prior because the gold is still coming in from your villagers. It is a transition period where you have both, this is what the pros do.

What I have seen in A LOT of noob games is pretty much the opposite. They wait until they have no gold, oh no, I have no gold to mine anymore, time for trade. That is wrong, that is probably what you have based your opinion on and sure, if you then go and lose your whole army, you are screwed.

Like I said, check Suomi ECL games, often they pick BF as a home map and if it is in ECL you know that it will be high level game play and not noobs or trolling.

Everyone who does constant production from 4 markets burns 3k worth of gold rez assuming wood is 14/100 which has been proven not to be the case by various games Ive linked. 32 carts, Caravan, 4 markets. Even unrealistically assuming wood and food are 14/100, that is exactly 2674 converted to gold value. I've been simplifying that to the 3k Ive been using because frankly 14/100 for wood and food when most start trading is flat wrong. Everybody says that amount of rez, which you wont get payback on for 14 minutes after youve started trading, or 8 minutes after youve bought the 32 carts, is not that much. I strongly disagree. If you say youll have those rez extra, cool, cause I wont have them extra because I will have spent them on military and it will push right into your base to where your market is.

I looked through 4 match series of suomi on yt and didnt see a single BF 4v4. Again, do you have a link? Is this one a good example of pros?

3v3 High Level Black Forest

Players: __Jessica + [RVK]JeD1 + __VM__ Vs [SaTaN_]Fayt_ + ResToewii_ + MembDonate to the MoA 2v2 prize pool and hopefully we'll get people like Chris and Da...

youtu.be

 

[gmischa]

Still this thread inspired me to try the instant 4 ranges all on wood/gold archer rush tomorrow. I wouldnt be surprised if everybody does this in 3 months from now latest.

 

[RicoJay13]

It’s like doing the math on when to replace lumber camps by setting up a scenario where you put 12+ Vills on a single camp. Ignoring the fact that actually splitting them into two camps is much more common because of the unquantifiable property called “potential damage”.

In an untouched boom situation like BF once walled up, do you split camps or put 12 on one?

 

[Flow]

If you are looking for high level BF games, check Nations Cup 2017.
IIRC that was the last time it was used as a HM in a tourney.

 

[Carlini8]

Everyone who does constant production from 4 markets burns 3k worth of gold rez assuming wood is 14/100 which has been proven not to be the case by various games Ive linked. 32 carts, Caravan, 4 markets. Even unrealistically assuming wood and food are 14/100, that is exactly 2674 converted to gold value. I've been simplifying that to the 3k Ive been using because frankly 14/100 for wood and food when most start trading is flat wrong. Everybody says that amount of rez, which you wont get payback on for 14 minutes after youve started trading, or 8 minutes after youve bought the 32 carts, is not that much. I strongly disagree. If you say youll have those rez extra, cool, cause I wont have them extra because I will have spent them on military and it will push right into your base to where your market is.

I looked through 4 match series of suomi on yt and didnt see a single BF 4v4. Again, do you have a link? Is this one a good example of pros?

3v3 High Level Black Forest

Players: __Jessica + [RVK]JeD1 + __VM__ Vs [SaTaN_]Fayt_ + ResToewii_ + MembDonate to the MoA 2v2 prize pool and hopefully we'll get people like Chris and Da...

youtu.be

So you just completely ignore the main point of my post and just talk about the 3k res more?

I assume the games you are linking me are trolls.

 

[Tarsiz]

Can check Donut in BoA as well, basically BF.