Logic behind Winner/Loser Bracket and Grand Final

UnknownILMCS

New Member
Mar 1, 2013
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#1
Hi,

I know this is a popular format and was used before. You lose in the elimination round, you move to the loser bracket. You win out there, you gonna face the winner of the winner bracket in the Grand Final. The of the GF is the overall winner, right?

How does this make sense. You lose early in a tournament and can still win the whole tournament. You lose the final of the winner bracket, and you have no chance to win the whole thing?

So, Brazil B totally smashed Brazil A, yet, if Finland beats Brazil B and Brazil A wins the loser bracket and then beats Finland, Brazil A is the overall winner. I am struggling to find the logic.
 

GermanyJineapple

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#2
Hi,

I know this is a popular format and was used before. You lose in the elimination round, you move to the loser bracket. You win out there, you gonna face the winner of the winner bracket in the Grand Final. The of the GF is the overall winner, right?

How does this make sense. You lose early in a tournament and can still win the whole tournament. You lose the final of the winner bracket, and you have no chance to win the whole thing?

So, Brazil B totally smashed Brazil A, yet, if Finland beats Brazil B and Brazil A wins the loser bracket and then beats Finland, Brazil A is the overall winner. I am struggling to find the logic.
No, if the winners' bracket team loses the first final, then another final is played, and the winner of that is the winner of the tournament. If they win the first final, they are immediately the tournament winner without playing a second final.
 

Switzerlandpumukel

Administrator
Staff member
Dec 11, 2012
2,487
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#3
You lose the final of the winner bracket, and you have no chance to win the whole thing?
The loser of the Winners Bracket Final goes down to the Losers Bracket and gets a second chance like any other participant.

Most Double Elimination discussions evolve around the right format of the Grand Final (two sets? expandable set? extra homemaps? WiC style?). There are no settings yet for the NC17 Grand Final.
 

United KingdomZeroEmpires

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2015
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#4
It's also common to give the winner bracket team some advantage, such as more home maps or civ pick advantage if drafting is used (instead of having another grand final). This was the format used at TI7 this year too
 

FranceTarsiz

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
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#6
To add up to what the others said,

So, Brazil B totally smashed Brazil A, yet, if Finland beats Brazil B and Brazil A wins the loser bracket and then beats Finland, Brazil A is the overall winner. I am struggling to find the logic.
If Finland beats Brazil B then Brazil B moves to the loser bracket final. Which means that if Brazil A has already won all the rest in the loser bracket, they would still need to play Brazil B (and win this time!) if they want to have a shot at the Grand Final against Finland.
 

UnknownILMCS

New Member
Mar 1, 2013
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#7
You lose the final of the winner bracket, and you have no chance to win the whole thing?
The loser of the Winners Bracket Final goes down to the Losers Bracket and gets a second chance like any other participant.

Most Double Elimination discussions evolve around the right format of the Grand Final (two sets? expandable set? extra homemaps? WiC style?). There are no settings yet for the NC17 Grand Final.
Yeah, now I see it. I missed that one. So the loser of the WB Final plays in the LB Final and can then actually face the same team again in the GF that they lost to in the WB Final, right :D

Then, it makes sense.

So WB and LB is actually simply to give a team a second chance?
 

BrazilNigelSlack

Active Member
Jul 5, 2010
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#8
Actually.... it was replaced.. in past, if the winner of the winniner bracket! lost the "grand final", there was a "2nd final", in order to give him a chance to lose 1 set aswell..

Nowadays it's changed for smtg like.. oh it's a B07.. but if the "winner bracket champion" loses, it'll become a BO11... don't like it either,. would be better two "Full setts" instead of chaning the BOXX
 

GermanyJineapple

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#9
Actually.... it was replaced.. in past, if the winner of the winniner bracket! lost the "grand final", there was a "2nd final", in order to give him a chance to lose 1 set aswell..

Nowadays it's changed for smtg like.. oh it's a B07.. but if the "winner bracket champion" loses, it'll become a BO11... don't like it either,. would be better two "Full setts" instead of chaning the BOXX
Oh, I had assumed this would be the case for NC17 as well. Imo, the only reason not to do this are time restrictions, but it's the most fair and balanced version. I guess it could be an issue if it's a LAN final that's only supposed to be one day.
 
Jun 9, 2013
179
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#10
It's also common to give the winner bracket team some advantage, such as more home maps or civ pick advantage if drafting is used (instead of having another grand final). This was the format used at TI7 this year too
Or maybe 1 map advantage in a BO7.
This is how it is in every other game, and should be here aswell because in a BO7 fe. starting with 1-0 lead is already a big advantage.

All that bullshit of a second boX set or extending the current final set incase the team coming from WB is losing is just so dumb. In every bracket it says "grand final", it doesnt say "two grand finals incase the team from WB loses".
 

NorwayTheViper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2010
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#11
Need to keep in mind that the Final takes place at a LAN and that there are time restrictions. That will most definitely affect the direction of the WB advantage.
 
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#12

FranceTarsiz

Well-Known Member
Feb 27, 2017
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#13
Yes but that doesn't change his point.
There will still be one team from the WB and one team from the LB matching up during the grand final.
 

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