Legendary AoE Players Overhaul - UPDATE #3

[pumukel]

There is 0 chance of anyone agreeing on this list :D

As we all know, the current Legendary AoE Players (menu name) or "Best AoC Players" (thread title by The_Prophet, 2012) is vastly outdated (and also not very nice to look at).

My vision for the overhaul looks like this: The OP of the thread gives an overview, it's like a menu. And then you have a single post per player. (The topic is closed, a discussion thread is linked in the OP.) One post per player means there is a lot of space. Every player entry will contain basic data (tournaments, Voobly ratings, tournament ELO, money earned, social media links). As an extra, there can be a collection of links to interviews and videos featuring the player, pictures, or even texts specifically written for the hall of fame entry (e.g. a summary of the player's career, his play style, his personality in ingame chats, in the lobby etc., his contributions to the competitive scene/meta).

I'll build the core with the basic data stuff (already working on it), but obviously I would be happy if there are contributors for the extra stuff. You can pick whoever you want and contribute whatever you want (as long as it's respectful and factual). It would be especially interesting if top players write about other top players (these can be short statements). - Send me a PM if you are interested, I'll add you to a hidden forum.

So who should be in the hall of fame? These are my guidelines:

1. The hall of fame is not a ranking, no need to endlessly discuss if X is better than Y. It's just about whether the player earned his/her spot in the history books.
2. I prefer "legendary players" over "best players", it opens space for players who weren't extremely successful, dominating, but still solid, steady, inspiring, maybe even game changing. Still, the focus is on "best players". There can be subsections like "RTSL Veterans" (many titles, but not competition at the highest level).
3. The hall of fame will be more focused on the 'present' than old history. I take WCL7 (2011) as a starting point. Because the appearance of TyRanT and its sponsor surely was the beginning of a new era. And the data available gets better starting with 2011. Older legendary players can still have their place in a subsection, even if it's just a copypasta of the old hall of fame entries (or let's see what can happen in this area).
4. A hall of fame is an ongoing project, players can be removed or added when the reasons to do so occur.
5. RM & DM, 1v1 & TG

Resources:

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dev.aoe-elo.com

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www.aoezone.net

Here is a list to start with (it's not my personal final list, just work in progress). Please comment below who should be removed, added, or in a different place.

Main Hall of Fame

TheViper TaToH DauT JorDan_23 dogao MbL Nicov Liereyy Yo FeAge miguel RiuT slam TheMax Hearttt kkab BacT St4rk Rubenstock yinghua Janik Villese Fengxin Edie Jidba True

Lyx Tim Zuppi Melkor Hera NorthernPike Lojza NilPferD Escape F1Re vivi Spaden Chris Vinchester mentalist Fedex Spring 8th_wonder RaGE Emin xiaoxiong TokiwaMiao WraTh Whoop TheCode happyhappy

Gary Goodboy Twigg Yellow ACCM geoffrey GoKu Ra Vodka Leash Stefan Alive Ding CooL Hasan Juan LaaaaaN jibatong StrayDog Keif xiaofan Daniell PROject_Belgium chart seyaren KuTaTaXoa

Interesting for Subsections

Skull Andorin Error Millo BruH DarK_KnighT LB10 Mango pedro Nick

PaTiN Chocobo ShiNe Arma WaRRioR Ovenka Mahori Skittle Bl4ck AngelinaJolie

Bustos DarkDevil MetalRTS PRieST TeRRoR Feanor Snyper1 Kongensgade DraCoNT

 

[csatooms]

Maybe I am wrong but maybe add The_Sheriff as I recall he was quite the innovator of strategies

 

[Rayne]

Where's Mr. Hoang?

 

[Michaerbse]

Great initiative, as usual!

I feel the current list is a bit over-ambitious though. For me a "Hall of Fame" is really more about the best of the best. No offense but I feel players like Goku, PROject_Belgium, chart, Daniel, ... have not earned their spot in a Hall of Fame (yet). Having ~80 players on the list may also make it a bit messy. I think this should rather start with a short list of ~20 players, i.e. the likes of Viper, DauT, Chris, ...

 

[Ovenka]

I am very honoured and proud 11

 

[Burandal]

The first row of the three makes much sense, all those players are for years on the top, some in a more early time, some are at the top the last couple of years. The 2nd row some people make sense: Fire, vivi, mentalist for example. They are, or used to be top players (mentalist). But spring for example, although he is very good, and a very old school player, he was never top 10 or 20. And for example Vinchester, who was a talent for 2 years, but never really made the top eventually)
The 3nd row feels different. I see lots of old names from years ago who were definitely (sub)top players but i also see players like: Laaan, Daniel and Project, although they are very skilled, they are players from the last 2 years who never reached top 10 yet for a long time and didn't participate or reached high stages in a lot of tournaments. They didn't proved themselves yet imo.

edit: i re-read your guidelines. And i understand you don't go for only the top of the top, so Spring is indeed a oldschool player who is subtop, but feels for me some players on this list did not proved themselves yet.

 

[Influenza]

If the goal is a list of "legendary players" I'm pretty sure many of those guys would not belong on the list in any way shape or form

 

[Black Adder]

There can be subsections like "RTSL Veterans" (many titles, but not competition at the highest level).

RTS League is the only real, established clan competition of its kind, it cannot get higher level by definition. That it targets different goals and ways of grouping players doesn't mean it's inferior, that would be like saying national teams in football are inferior to club league teams, you just don't make such comparisons, it's a different type of competition. It's as if you were saying Masters of Arena are not a high-level competition, because it looks at only a subset of maps and has a dedicated group of players. Or if you tried to compare Nations Cup and regular tournaments. Is Nations Cup also inferior because players are forced to group differently than by their own will to create the strongest teams?

Would be pretty great if this misconception hurting the community ended - this is not about RTSL, this is about the broken mentality instilled by certain self-interested agendas that money=good, because it's simply not true, money is not a prerequisite for good, you can have bad, over-hyped money tournaments and you can have good, overlooked non-money events, it's only marketed that way to hype things up, and then the effect "they say it, so it must be true" comes in, or do you think Olympics are also subpar and insignificant?

 

[Burandal]

Even if there isn't realy a thing to rage about, Blackadder always will find a thing..

 

[buhanisson]

If you have a too big hall of fame, you kinda belittle the achievements of the most legendary players and water down the prestige of the whole hall of fame. Theres a reason why it's not called "hall of basically everyone who ever played the game at a semi-decent level"

 

[Jupe]

I think the current list heavily favor players from near future. In general i would personally start with something like 1/4 of the first list.

Something i would personally value if i were to ''make my own list''
1. Being able to perform at the very top level for many years and through many high stake tournaments with minimal ''dips'' in skill.
2. Having lasting impact on how the game has been played and developed
3. Having performed exceptionally on multiple high stake tournaments.

Performing well in small stake tournaments imo doesn't prove someone worthy to break into such list, just because the pressure and the level of competition hasn't been the highest.

I would also ignore achievements just based on achieved ratings or ladder ranks

 

[komtan]

PRieST the best beast

 

[nC_Andorin]

If the goal is a list of "legendary players" I'm pretty sure many of those guys would not belong on the list in any way shape or form

We can rename the "Interesting for Subsections" into "Participation Medal" so you can be included!
Every child deserves a participation medal, so no one feels left out... or so is the trend nowadays I've heard.
Is your body ready though? <3

 

[green eggs]

I think BruH probably belongs in the main hall of fame. I know you said you want to consciously favor more recent players, but I still think the main hall of fame contains quite a few players who are currently strong but are far from gaining "legendary status" – players like LaaaaaN, PROject_Belgium, Daniell. They are promising, not yet legendary (no offence guys).

If the secondary list is for players who weren't necessarily the strongest, but who nonetheless had a notable impact on the game, then Lavie_Head deserves to be there.

 

[diseased]

I think if we wanted to induct players into a new hall of fame it would be best to have the community vote them in, as consensus is really what defines a legend at the end of the day.

 

[dodageka]

RTS League is the only real, established clan competition of its kind, it cannot get higher level by definition. That it targets different goals and ways of grouping players doesn't mean it's inferior, that would be like saying national teams in football are inferior to club league teams, you just don't make such comparisons, it's a different type of competition. It's as if you were saying Masters of Arena are not a high-level competition, because it looks at only a subset of maps and has a dedicated group of players. Or if you tried to compare Nations Cup and regular tournaments. Is Nations Cup also inferior because players are forced to group differently than by their own will to create the strongest teams?

Would be pretty great if this misconception hurting the community ended - this is not about RTSL, this is about the broken mentality instilled by certain self-interested agendas that money=good, because it's simply not true, money is not a prerequisite for good, you can have bad, over-hyped money tournaments and you can have good, overlooked non-money events, it's only marketed that way to hype things up, and then the effect "they say it, so it must be true" comes in, or do you think Olympics are also subpar and insignificant?

Either I misunderstood either of you, or I think you misunderstand him. They way understand his RTSL remark is that players might deserve hall of fame status for performing well during RTSL even though they (the players) might not be able to compete at the highest level otherwise (an example that comes to my mind would be nC who dont have a chance to compete with Secret, aM, Suomi, SY, etc. but have left their mark on RTSL for sure). In no way do I understand his comments to suggest that RTSL is an inferior tournament

 

[TwilliverOngenbone]

RTS League is the only real, established clan competition of its kind, it cannot get higher level by definition. That it targets different goals and ways of grouping players doesn't mean it's inferior, that would be like saying national teams in football are inferior to club league teams, you just don't make such comparisons, it's a different type of competition. It's as if you were saying Masters of Arena are not a high-level competition, because it looks at only a subset of maps and has a dedicated group of players. Or if you tried to compare Nations Cup and regular tournaments. Is Nations Cup also inferior because players are forced to group differently than by their own will to create the strongest teams?

Would be pretty great if this misconception hurting the community ended - this is not about RTSL, this is about the broken mentality instilled by certain self-interested agendas that money=good, because it's simply not true, money is not a prerequisite for good, you can have bad, over-hyped money tournaments and you can have good, overlooked non-money events, it's only marketed that way to hype things up, and then the effect "they say it, so it must be true" comes in, or do you think Olympics are also subpar and insignificant?

He's only saying that the level of play of RTS league is inferior to top competitions. He's not questioning that its morally superior

 

[pete26196]

To be a legend definitely requires achievements (not necessarily wins) and consistent top level over a period of time. Rating shouldn't be a factor. Minor tournaments without as tough competition shouldn't really be a factor either imo.

I don't think you can truly call any of the rising pros legends yet, but they could be acknowledged in a seperate list for Rising Stars or something similar. Ultimately where you draw the line is going to be difficult.

But I'd ask you what is your audience for this project? Are people, especially the newer guys who this type of thing might be aimed towards, going to be interested in a huge forum for 80 names they don't know with essays on each?

I'd say maybe you want a top 10/20 names or so as a subset to expand upon more, and then less detail on others. When you're getting towards the bottom of the list individual players might be footnotes as part of a team that did well in tournaments - as there are some teams that are more notable as a collective than individual players are: for example CZ maybe.

 

[nimanoe]

Pretty much agreed with the above, the Hall of Fame should be something special, limited only to the best of the best.

Maybe you could make multiple subsections with people below that though.

 

[123hunter]

What about doing it the other way around. Now it seems you have way too many players on the list and removing players would take a lot of debate. Maybe its faster to start with a rather small List. For Example:

Viper
Liereyy
Yo
Mbl
Tatoh
Jordan
Max
BacT
Tim
DauT
RiuT
Dogao
Vivi
Nicov

This list might be rather uncontroversial.
Then the question is how to proceed and add more players.
Either voting or maybe discussion. The problem with "voting only" is that people on aoezone have very differing knowledge about the game and its competitive history. So it should always be discussed and not only voted who gets in the list.

edit: also one major point to discuss is whether to include inactive players. The old list had a seperate column for them. My suggestion would be to not include any inactive player in the main list, where inactive means not participating in a major tournament for the last 1 year.

 

[Black Adder]

Either I misunderstood either of you, or I think you misunderstand him. They way understand his RTSL remark is that players might deserve hall of fame status for performing well during RTSL even though they (the players) might not be able to compete at the highest level otherwise (an example that comes to my mind would be nC who dont have a chance to compete with Secret, aM, Suomi, SY, etc. but have left their mark on RTSL for sure). In no way do I understand his comments to suggest that RTSL is an inferior tournament

I don't know, maybe it is just unfortunate wording or misunderstanding, maybe it is just random example that didn't exactly hit home of e.g. Arena Clowns or DM Experts subcategories which probably will need their own, I don't doubt pumukel means well, but currently the wording feels to me like RTSL is not good enough, so it'll have its own category to still be recognised, but not mingle with the rest, just like the Arena or DM would have, but RTSL is not a game mode, it's a tournament. I guess pumukel will clear it up soon enough.

Btw when you're mentioning nC, they did in fact to a degree beat Suomi, TheMax and Rubenstock actively played for Weljet (and damn how well did they play! Match vs. CZ was something) and they beat them 3:0 in the Semis and in the Finals they beat Gaucho with Nicov and FeAge also 3:0. Of the list of players above, almost all of them played RTS League even regularly and many won it (even some Chinese - Frantic won Season 40).

--------------------

For me "Legendary Player" means someone completely outstanding you think of immediately, no matter what tournaments he won. So Viper and DauT, imo from the recent past there's no one close to their status, and more could maybe be found in the deeper past, I don't know, maybe grunt who managed to be one of the Goats in AoE2, AoM, AoEIII all? dogao seems like a possibility, too. Then you can of course have some "candidate" group that would be quite wide with influential/outstanding players.

 

[AlgernonR]

I like the idea of redoing the Hall of Fame - making it less dated, however we still should include inactive players. I cant judge who out of the inactive players in the current Hall of Fame section actually would fit in the overhauled one, but I am sure there are plenty who has made a bigger mark in the community than one of the newer 2k4s. Some of the suggested lists here doesnt even include Chris :D Lets find a middle ground maybe? A shorter list than the OP suggests but a longer than just "top 15 active pros".

 

[Huehuecoyotl22]

I could write much more later, but 2 points:

The inactive players should not be deleted. This site was always the best to look up some old players I never saw playing. You should mark it clearly though who is inactive and since when.

It is difficult with teams. A fifth member of SY winning a Nations Cup or a Frantic member only winning RTS league.
And you can't add TheMax and leave out the rest of Suomi.

We can gather lists and for every player there should be a reason.
They are never equal, many players should be there, no matter whether it is TheViper (best 1v1 since 7 years), Grunt (best a long time ago), James (member of China A, but only one tournament), 8th wonder (less active the last 2 years, but top player 5 years ago), Duck (top player in the past, recently 1900) or Liereyy (top player since 3 years).

 

[Scogo_]

to me legendary should also include some sort of "uniqueness" to the player, not just skill (high elo). hoang would be a perfect example of that, having his own unique playstyle ignoring the meta yet competing at 2k2/2k3 level

 

[AlgernonR]

I think having a long "Worthy mentions"-section can work very well if it can be expanded/minimized when browsing the topic - the main thing is, we cant include too many people on the Hall of Fame list or it will just lose its purpose imo. More than 25 players on the Hall of Fame-list would be too crowded probably.