KotD4 | Discussion & Talk

[Rey_Fer]

Really! Totally slipped my mind. Well that works for me better, so our so called experts put Hera in top 10 of all time, who is not even considered top 5 short time ago. Lol.

Hera wasn't even top 10 until DE (or short before that). I think it had to do with him using WASD to scroll or just playing differently. He used to be a ultra aggresive player in arabia huns, always doing 1TC pushes and now he is know for his ultra defensive style which clearly fits him best

 

[Timotheus_]

Like in all games, the players got better and better over the years; in dota 2, things that were considered super plays just 5 years ago are now a given, everybody already assumes that the player will have that reflex trained to perfection and will execute 9 out of 10 times

That being said, the current top 10 is the closest to top 10 of all time, no chance for the guys who played when there were 2 viable strats and 3 viable civs , just that nostalgia makes you see things/past through pink glasses; when i see players like halen, tim, kove, grunt placed higher to jordan, hera, yo, mbl AND liereyy, i just laugh; maybe they were strong at their time, which makes that relative strength and it is opposite to ALL TIME; of course pros will try to be more PC than me, but reality stays the same

Let's see what else has evolved with the game:
keyboards
mice - smoother + lots of extra bottons
monitors - no longer playing really low resolution + screen sizes are just bigger
game smoothness - no longer 5+ seconds lag, and units actually respond quickly
QoL features - auto everything
etc etc

You put these new faces back in 2000s with their equipment, no MQ, their servers, etc, I wouldnt be surprised to see the likes of Halen, Tim, etc still winning.

It's similar enough to the Olympics, all these records being broken BUT.... (take sprinting for example) if you have a good racetrack which has bounce/spring in it as opposed to gravel, the latest shoes which enhance performance instead of spikes, OF COURSE you are gonna do better than the past.

Trying to judge historical performance through the lens of modern equipment is downright stupid.

With that rant over:
Absolutely phenomenal tournament. Loved seeing players like Vinch, Sitaux, Kasva (had to play both Vinch and Viper in group stage... ouch) playing amazing. Membs quality as a tournament host and caster keeps getting better.

 

[TopperHarley]

It's really interesting to me, too, and for the same reasons. It's fascinating how one can bet on MbL having a good chance at beating people he's beaten somewhat consistently before (Hera, Yo, Vinchester), and always bet against him on people he has almost always lost to (Liereyy, TheViper).

This seems to hold true regardless of his opponent's level of play or preparation.

While this is true for Mbl vs Lierrey, it is a bit more complicated for mbl vs Viper.

back in 2018/19, Mbls style was considered to counter Viper’s. He took series‘ from Viper (legacy of huns 2, NAC 2) during a time Viper was basically considered to be almost unbeatable.
Just another prove of what an outstanding player MBl is. Currently he is not full time Aoe and therefore can maybe not show his full potential. He probably would be up there with the Top 4 otherwise

 

[OctavianAoe]

It would be super Interesting to see which competition on the top and at the second level we would get if Players would recieve a regular paycheck from their Teams every month.

We have the Student MBL and now the fulltime Worker MBL thats the fact with many other Players so we never know how close some players could get to the top if they could commit 100 %.

 

[oozkan]

Talent wise MBL is underrated. People don't understand how talented he is, because he plays messy, never train enough for tournament although playing thousand games on ladder, no specific training for maps and his draft and civ picks, just uuuggh. MBL is your smart but not studying kid, if somehow things goes on his way, like if he can luckily select right civs from draft and if maps are somewhat familiar, he will be a nightmare for everyone. But that lack of consistency and preparation made him lose finals/semi finals, never reached a big trophy.

 

[Syphax]

I mean, not to take anything away from MbL, but I feel calling him a counter to Viper was always a stretch and more of an aoezone wishful thinking or meme. He wins against Viper were in a minor tournament and the group stages of NAC. If we look at this, the truth becomes apparent: https://aoe-elo.com/compare/player/TheViper/MbL/29/24

MbL won 13 % of his series against Viper - in numbers: 3. And there was never a time when MbL had a positive record against Viper, not even when he won those 3 series. In fact, he had lost all of his recorded series vs. Viper until NAC1 and lost against him again in the HC1 finals and HC2 semis right around that time.

None of this is meant to downplay MbL or his victories. All I'm saying is that he was never a "counter" to Viper.

 

[Freezing_Point]

Also, I just realized that in both semifinals and in the finals the losing player never used their first drafted civ.

 

[LeoMontero]

Tournament was great but imo too long, 2 weeks would have been enough, several matches could have been better bo3 instead of bo5.

I hope for next tournament, they reconsider better the usage of draftings, lots of matches were civ win, we see more civs being played but we don't always see the best performance from the players cause they lost somehow the drafting and had to go for alternative civs, such method is preventing players to specialize some crazy BO, i think 1 or 2 civ bans and no repeat rule could bring more competitive games since the players can prepare better.

And lastly the map was also a key factor, several matches were won or lost cause of the hills and resources in the same spot, memb was happy to see players going 1 tc full but that is not the essence of arabia, that is more socotra meta, arabia like maps have to offer both defensive and agressive gameplay a fair ground, after having kotd map in the ranked games you get tired of the lack of flat woodlines or no space to even make town centers.

i completley disagree with all the points here.

 

[LeoMontero]

Best tournament in a long time. Loved the organization, all the extra things, stats, cocasters and everything.

I just don't like the observer thing, never showing what the casters are talking about. Loved the final day in that regard.

I love you memb and I know the observer simplifies things for the caster, but it's worse for the viewer.

i pointed this at the begining. think the observer is not the best choice. i prefer memb showing the action. in the begining is key, because memb can show the map better. and analize the game better too

 

[Rey_Fer]

I mean, not to take anything away from MbL, but I feel calling him a counter to Viper was always a stretch and more of an aoezone wishful thinking or meme. He wins against Viper were in a minor tournament and the group stages of NAC. If we look at this, the truth becomes apparent: https://aoe-elo.com/compare/player/TheViper/MbL/29/24

MbL won 13 % of his series against Viper - in numbers: 3. And there was never a time when MbL had a positive record against Viper, not even when he won those 3 series. In fact, he had lost all of his recorded series vs. Viper until NAC1 and lost against him again in the HC1 finals and HC2 semis right around that time.

None of this is meant to downplay MbL or his victories. All I'm saying is that he was never a "counter" to Viper.

Well, he was in the 2018-2019 period. And noone was beating viper at that time...

 

[Rey_Fer]

 

[TopperHarley]

View attachment 196867

As I said, mbl was Viper’s Nemesis at that time

for some reason ppl tend to underestimate mbl (maybe intentionally?). I recall before NAC1 Nili predicted Mbl to be clear bottom place in that tournament. Then Mbl beat literally EVERYONE except for Lierrey

 

[Syphax]

Well, he was in the 2018-2019 period. And noone was beating viper at that time...

That is a very selective screenshot. Before NAC1 (in which Viper barely lost a group-stage match 3-4), he beat MbL easily 3-0 in the finals of EGM3. And exactly between the series in your screenshot, as is visible there, Viper beat MbL 4-2 in the HC1 finals. Right after NAC2, which you conveniently crop out, Viper beat Mbl 3-1 in the HC2 semi finals.

So even if you only look at the time frame from e.g. July 2018 (first Mbl win) to April 2019 (shortly after the 3rd MbL win), Viper arguably had a better record than Mbl in their direct comparisonwhen you consider prestige, importance of matches and amount of prize money:

- 2 group stage victories without any impact plus one minor tourney (170 Dollars!) victory (MbL)
- vs. victories in finals of HC1 (1400 Dollars prize money, alot at that time) and semi finals of HC2 (10.000 dollars prize money)

Yes, MbL had a better record vs. Viper than most other players at the time, but he was by no means his "counter".

 

[Rey_Fer]

That is a very selective screenshot. Before NAC1 (in which Viper barely lost a group-stage match 3-4), he beat MbL easily 3-0 in the finals of EGM3. And exactly between the series in your screenshot, as is visible there, Viper beat MbL 4-2 in the HC1 finals. Right after NAC2, which you conveniently crop out, Viper beat Mbl 3-1 in the HC2 semi finals.

So even if you only look at the time frame from e.g. July 2018 (first Mbl win) to April 2019 (shortly after the 3rd MbL win), Viper arguably had a better record than Mbl in their direct comparisonwhen you consider prestige, importance of matches and amount of prize money:

- 2 group stage victories without any impact plus one minor tourney (170 Dollars!) victory (MbL)
- vs. victories in finals of HC1 (1400 Dollars prize money, alot at that time) and semi finals of HC2 (10.000 dollars prize money)

Yes, MbL had a better record vs. Viper than most other players at the time, but he was by no means his "counter".

of course it is selective! I think you are right, but there was a period of time, (tournaments weren't every week back then) when mbl could beat viper.

People remember it a lot because n2 at that moment (probably tatoh) couldn't