[KotD3] General Feedback

[nimanoe]

And also we get a huge and kreygasm amount of very high level games and it only adds two series in comparison to the gsl format but has higher level of matches guaranteed.

Seems to me it adds three series compared to GSL? (10 for GSL, 13 for 8DE)

I gotta say I am in love with 2 8DE brackets now with two players qualifiying for the SE semifinals after.

The first two rounds are identical to the gsl groups but it is guaranteed that there are no repeated matchups before the finals. And also we get a huge and kreygasm amount of very high level games and it only adds two series in comparison to the gsl format but has higher level of matches guaranteed.

I also feel it makes player want to win every game because it will give them a good advantage while losing in first round of GSL feels like to be revertable in the decider match again totally.

I actually think two 8 player double elimination brackets with 3 players advancing would be more interesting, as there is a bigger advantage for the winner bracket (straight to semi's instead of quarter) and it should offset a group of death a bit more. Logistically it also makes a bit more sense, as you don't need to have 5 series on a single day or be forced to split them over 2 days (you can drop the Loser bracket final from your picture)

If you compare that to the GSL system, there's pro's and cons to both of them. As you said, there's no repeat matches and I think the players will get ranked a bit better as instead of dividing the 8 advancing players into two groups (1st and 2nd place per group), you'll now have 6 advancing players in 3 groups (1st, 2nd and 3rd place per group).

Your claim that we'll see some very high level games is true of course, but it takes away some of that from the play-offs, as Quarter finals are entirely eliminated by your method, or halved by my suggestion. I personally like it that the level of play get's higher and higher as we progress through the tournament, so for me the group stage is merely leading up to the real thing: the play-offs. Therefore I prefer the GSL format, as it will give the best build-up to the play-offs, instead of taking something away from the play-offs.

Logistically, I'm also unsure how it would be streamed. Assuming the first two rounds will be streamed similar to now with the GSL stage, this would mean that for the last weekend there's 4 series remaining with my suggestion and 5 with your suggestion. If you stream them on the same day that might lead to some problems with players playing multiple series on that day. It will be much harder to make a schedule that won't be unfair to one of the players, as you don't know who will advance and some players might be forced to play multiple series in a row or play at a really unfortunate time.
Spreading them out over multiple days might be better for the players, but not as good for the casters/viewers, as there will "only" be two or three series.

All in all, I think both methods are great, and would definitely like to see either your or my suggestion get used for a future tournament. Not every tournament should be GSL, so I would love some variation between GSL, Swiss and 8-player DE brackets.

 

[RobChang]

Seems to me it adds three series compared to GSL? (10 for GSL, 13 for 8DE)

I actually think two 8 player double elimination brackets with 3 players advancing would be more interesting, as there is a bigger advantage for the winner bracket (straight to semi's instead of quarter) and it should offset a group of death a bit more. Logistically it also makes a bit more sense, as you don't need to have 5 series on a single day or be forced to split them over 2 days (you can drop the Loser bracket final from your picture)

If you compare that to the GSL system, there's pro's and cons to both of them. As you said, there's no repeat matches and I think the players will get ranked a bit better as instead of dividing the 8 advancing players into two groups (1st and 2nd place per group), you'll now have 6 advancing players in 3 groups (1st, 2nd and 3rd place per group).

Your claim that we'll see some very high level games is true of course, but it takes away some of that from the play-offs, as Quarter finals are entirely eliminated by your method, or halved by my suggestion. I personally like it that the level of play get's higher and higher as we progress through the tournament, so for me the group stage is merely leading up to the real thing: the play-offs. Therefore I prefer the GSL format, as it will give the best build-up to the play-offs, instead of taking something away from the play-offs.

Logistically, I'm also unsure how it would be streamed. Assuming the first two rounds will be streamed similar to now with the GSL stage, this would mean that for the last weekend there's 4 series remaining with my suggestion and 5 with your suggestion. If you stream them on the same day that might lead to some problems with players playing multiple series on that day. It will be much harder to make a schedule that won't be unfair to one of the players, as you don't know who will advance and some players might be forced to play multiple series in a row or play at a really unfortunate time.
Spreading them out over multiple days might be better for the players, but not as good for the casters/viewers, as there will "only" be two or three series.

All in all, I think both methods are great, and would definitely like to see either your or my suggestion get used for a future tournament. Not every tournament should be GSL, so I would love some variation between GSL, Swiss and 8-player DE brackets.

The 8DE bracket includes the quarterfinals already. So its 10+2 versus 13 makes a delta of 1 that times two for the other brackets is two :D

 

[nimanoe]

There is no loser bracket that makes you wait 2 weeks for the final

With a timetable similar to KotD3, that wouldn't be the case, as you can play multiple rounds in a single day.
The way I picture it would look something like this:

Spoiler: amazing Paint skills

If you want you can split the last day in two, so players don't have to play multiple series, so then winner bracket players would have to wait one day.

 

[Rorarimbo]

The problem I have with those two formats is while interesting I think they are getting a little too complicated for the general viewers to follow.

 

[nimanoe]

The problem I have with those two formats is while interesting I think they are getting a little too complicated for the general viewers to follow.

I disagree, we've had double elimination tournaments before, so I don't see the problem. And even if you're right, the casters could explain the format. Explaining how the Swiss System works or how tie-breakers work in Round Robins is way harder than explaining how these formats work.

 

[Rorarimbo]

I disagree, we've had double elimination tournaments before, so I don't see the problem. And even if you're right, the casters could explain the format. Explaining how the Swiss System works or how tie-breakers work in Round Robins is way harder than explaining how these formats work.

In most sports there are round robin groups and leagues. Only thing simpler is a single elimination bracket. Swiss group is more simple to comprehend than a DE esp if you factor in how you would fit in the games in days weekends (talking from broadcasting pov) just look at your paint mastapiece.

 

[MembTV]

hey guys, i love the feedback, but there is 2 things that i will never host, one thing is Double Elimination (whole thing) this GSL even if you can consider its double, is just have a 2nd chance after 2 rounds, and before quarterfinals, then whole event still single elimination, the other thing that i won´t host is a water map event.

Being said that i really aprecciate all the feedback, but honestly why im that straight in this statement is because i never enjoyed water maps, and didn´t enjoy double elimination either, just personal preference, i dont like it.

 

[nimanoe]

In most sports there are round robin groups and leagues. Only thing simpler is a single elimination bracket. Swiss group is more simple to comprehend than a DE esp if you factor in how you would fit in the games in days weekends (talking from broadcasting pov) just look at your paint mastapiece.

Swiss System itself is pretty easy to understand (even though it's harder than double elimination imo), but have you seen casters trying to predict what the next match-ups would be? That stuff is really confusing, even for people who have quite a bit of knowledge about the system. Every time the Swiss System is used people here are predicting what the match-ups will be and it's quite a struggle.

And the same goes for tiebreakers in Round Robins. I made this sheet for BoA2, to make it easier to understand what the possibilities were, there's no need for that in double elimination or GSL (which is basicly double elim). Sure people are familiar with Round Robin, but that doesn't make it easier to understand when there's 5 different tiebreakers.

Regarding the schedule I agree with you, it can be a bit harder, but that's an entirely different point, doesn't have to much to do with understanding the system :D

hey guys, i love the feedback, but there is 2 things that i will never host, one thing is Double Elimination (whole thing) this GSL even if you can consider its double, is just have a 2nd chance after 2 rounds, and before quarterfinals, then whole event still single elimination, the other thing that i won´t host is a water map event.

I think double elimination groups as @RobChang suggested would be fine, it's very similar to GSL, only instead of groups of 4, there's groups of 8. Having an entire tournament as double elimination is quite a bit different imo and has it's struggles, so I understand why you wouldn't want to host a tournament with it.

 

[Rorarimbo]

Love how you insist in these topics <3. There is nothing to predict with swiss system. You just know when the last game of the round is played. Depends on the result. I know you are not a fan of RR but it is pretty straight forward everyone play everyone else in a league/ group. Additional rules are additional rules but it is not mess of a schedule

Look at your table.Mbl, daut would have to play two times in day 3. Mbl would play 4 (3W:1L) games to qualify for 1/4. Yo with 3 games (3W) goes to 1/2. Liereyy on the other hand makes it to 1/4 with 3 games 2W:1L). MbL and Liereyy both lost only to Yo but Mbl has to play an extra game possibly two games in the same day/week/round. Imagine they played looser brackets final, too. Absolute mess 11

Dont get me wrong I personalluy think for every ocasion/event there is proper format. All of them have their advantages and dissadvantages. My point here is that we are several nerds here who love these things but for normal ppl this would be just too crazy as I see it.

 

[The Bloodless]

Gsl is simple to see and understand at a glance, and single elimination even easier. I see gsl groups as a "necessary evil" in terms of added complexity because it's more likely that the better player advances. Similar logic could be applied to double elimination as to gsl groups but the "winner's advantage" controversy is too much. How to decide if or how to punish the losers bracket winner?

Single elimination throughout is imo ok, but memb, you have hit a perfect middle ground here in kotd. Single elimination until only top players are left, then the more skilled player advances out of gsl groups, then since we got only the very best left playing, bracket luck is less of a factor and single elimination is the most exciting. I mean people can have all kinds of opinions on these tournament structures but I do think this is the best I've seen!

 

[RobChang]

Love how you insist in these topics <3. There is nothing to predict with swiss system. You just know when the last game of the round is played. Depends on the result. I know you are not a fan of RR but it is pretty straight forward everyone play everyone else in a league/ group. Additional rules are additional rules but it is not mess of a schedule

Look at your table.Mbl, daut would have to play two times in day 3. Mbl would play 4 (3W:1L) games to qualify for 1/4. Yo with 3 games (3W) goes to 1/2. Liereyy on the other hand makes it to 1/4 with 3 games 2W:1L). MbL and Liereyy both lost only to Yo but Mbl has to play an extra game possibly two games in the same day/week/round. Imagine they played looser brackets final, too. Absolute mess 11

Dont get me wrong I personalluy think for every ocasion/event there is proper format. All of them have their advantages and dissadvantages. My point here is that we are several nerds here who love these things but for normal ppl this would be just too crazy as I see it.

The schedule would of course be:

Day 1: G1 - WB R1
Day 2: G2 - WB R1
Day 3: G1 - WB R2 + LB R1
Day4: G2 - WB R2 + LB R1

Day 5: G1+G2 LB R2
Day 6: G1+G2 WB R3 + G1+G2 LB R3

Every day has 4 series and every player only one per day. @nimanoe only tried to make it in one group which doesnt work and also isnt what you have with GSL where the deciders are cast across all groups in one day.
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You can have an optimal weekend finals:

Thursday: Early half of the day: Losers Matches, Late half of the day when America is awake and Europe back from home: Winners Matches
Friday: Quarterfinals
Saturday: Semifinals
Sunday: Finals

4 days of really nice matchups between top 8 players without the one sided clappening on Thursday Friday what you have with 16player SE and then Semifinals and Finals on same day, both very suboptimal.

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That MbL needs a series more than Lierrey that "only" needs to beat DauT to reach the quarterfinals while MbL needs to defeat Mr_Yo to achieve the same is already in the GSL format and if not he needs another series. Seeding will always affect your Brackets.

Lierrey advancing to Semifinals by "only" beating Mr_Yo is ofc a logical consequence. Beating a top 4 is usually enough to reach a final, in this case Mr_Yo would be top 6 guaranteed and Lierrey ofc does Lierrey therefore advance to semifinals and doesnt need to beat another top 8 player first after that. When MbL faces Mr_Yo he is only guaranteed top 12 which means that winning versus him can only result in advancing to round of 8.

I mean it is the same as with SE or any other brackets. If you face a strong opponent early and win you gain less than winning versus him in the finals. But there need to be people that play the strong opponentns in the tournament to approve they are strong and not they just get autoinvited to the finals.

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@MembTV This is no complete 16player DE brackets. It is just a DE brackets group stage that replaces one stage of SE which is literally the definition of GSL groups. You still jump out into a SE final play off bracket. Winners of the WB finals are only in the semifinals and not already in the finals so that makes the GFs more likely to be no repetition. But the nice thing here is that you have the top 4 most likely having 5 games between each others and not only 3.

And I like that very much because you can have more high level games without eliminating one of the top 4 early and other than in a pure SE quarterfinals you dont have 4 favorites facing 4 challengers but more like 4 games on equal level.

Ofc you can shorten it even more as @nimanoe has done and only play until day 5 to have it identical to your GSL format but still I prefer it then because the decider matches are between Group A2 and Group B3 and not A2 and A3 most likely again. I hate these rematches and they make the first rounds more useless than any proper DE bracket would do.

Because you have one match per group with the highest possible seeding gap there which should be a clappening and then the closest possible set of the group also is of no use since it will be repeated most likely anyhow. With 1 very strong, 1 very low and 2 equal players in a group this format gives a lot of null series. People just could not play by their full strength in the first match to hide strats for the rematch. If you have a mixed decider then the first game suddenly matters, because losing that will determine that you have to face the stronger opponent of the other group and not the weaker. An apparent advantage. But winning r1 here is just of a mental advantage which can be very little or very big depending on players. I mean you clearly dont want to face MbL as Nicov/DauT and therefore you try to give all you have in your r1 matches and its not like I can lose here but it can be undone within one round already.

PS: This is ofc just my feedback and ideas I want to share. There is ofc no need to change anything you like to something you dont like, but I appreciate the open discussion very much.

 

[Rorarimbo]

@RobChang Here is the problem I read your post, than I read it again. Now I know I needs some more time and to open an 8 man DE bracket to picture and comprehend it... Now I understand. Looks interesting indeed. Would I use it dont think but again my main issue is it doesnt seem easy to explain. ( appreciate the effort). And I can see why You like it but not sure it suits my taste.

cheers

 

[RobChang]

@RobChang Here is the problem I read your post, than I read it again. Now I know I needs some more time and to open an 8 man DE bracket to picture and comprehend it... Now I understand. Looks interesting indeed. Would I use it dont think but again my main issue is it doesnt seem easy to explain. ( appreciate the effort). And I can see why You like it but not sure it suits my taste.

cheers

I dont think AoE viewers are dumber in average than ESL viewers in CSGO :D You dont need to make a theoretical introduction into your bracket every stream just play and show the bracket. It is by far not convoluted but very straight forward.

It looks confusing at first glance but in the end its simple. Group Winners play against each others and winners are already in the semis, losers in ther qfs. Top 2 and 3 of each group will go through SE to fill up the rest. It has basically the same effect of adding two semifinals on top.

Not every non-SE or GS brackets is bad just because we assume viewers only watch football world cup and dont know anything more. SE is just the worst bracket. Highly dependent on seeding, very stompy games, not cross comparision between players. You do only SE if you want to give the winner your money fast without having proved its not a Portugal having luck every stage :D

But I understand your dislike still and appreciate your feedback. I still find new bracket formats more interesting. Not every tournament should be HC3 style and just opt for breaking viewer records but we also want so competitive value and I think more games between equal players help to measure the skill levels of the top 16 players way better.

 

[Tarsiz]

Single elimination is the perfect format. You lose you're out. Need to play your 100% in every game, every set.

That being said I think the GSL format will be cool, however it might feel a bit redundant in two weeks as I fear we will see a lot of repeats.

 

[Giuseppe551]

Single elimination is the perfect format if you're trying to bang out a weekend tournament with as little admin work as possible. If you want a more interesting tournament with more story lines and more high level games you go with double elim of some sort.

These GSL groups are fantastic and this tournament is fantastic. Easily the best tournament settings in recent memory.

 

[green eggs]

I'm a little late with this because I'm watching VODs, but I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed Memb and Hera's co-casting on Saturday. I'm not a regular viewer of either of them (I'll usually only watch Memb when he's hosting a tournament), but they were so much fun together. Really great chemistry, zero awkwardness, funny and informative. Not only did Memb call on Hera's expertise really well during games, the two of them also had a good comic energy and they bounced off each other nicely.

Anyway, long story short, great duo and I really hope they team up again soon!

 

[fluppets]

Anyway, long story short, great duo and I really hope they team up again soon!

Chemistry is a weird thing, very imporrant yet hard to quantify and impossible to predict.

Ornlu + Memb works really well too, while Nova + Memb rubs me wrong, but its a matter of tastes, not about the content or quality.

I am really enjoying what i've seen so far, love the map of course, even though just watching it causes me heartburn from stress. 11

 

[kw1k000000]

I have not been following things closely for past few months hence the question,

How are the viewer numbers for KOTD3 compared to recent big tournaments like NAC3 , Hidden Cup, Red bull 1 & 2?

 

[peterdastehter]

I always enjoy the combination of memb and a pro Player, IMO he is the best caster for this.

 

[RobChang]

I have not been following things closely for past few months hence the question,

How are the viewer numbers for KOTD3 compared to recent big tournaments like NAC3 , Hidden Cup, Red bull 1 & 2?

Roughly 10k I would estimate. For a round of 16 normal I would say, most viewers would tune in when it comes to top 8 matches.

 

[MembTV]

Roughly 10k I would estimate. For a round of 16 normal I would say, most viewers would tune in when it comes to top 8 matches.

youtube viewers are being like another 8-10k too do not forget the open streaming is open for a good reason, global viewers, not twitch viewers.

But for early rounds we still yet, i would say we are getting very good numbers

I always enjoy the combination of memb and a pro Player, IMO he is the best caster for this.

Then maybe next weekend you should join again, you will see :D

 

[RobChang]

youtube viewers are being like another 8-10k too do not forget the open streaming is open for a good reason, global viewers, not twitch viewers.

But for early rounds we still yet, i would say we are getting very good numbers



Then maybe next weekend you should join again, you will see :D

I had them in mind no worries but I didnt have any clue about numbers so I didnt count them in. I seem to have forgotten to add that I only refer to twitch, thanks for that correction.

 

[Chainsaw]

I have to say that I've found it really refreshing the amount of cocasters that have been invited. I find it an extremely nice way of getting to know more people than just the most popular streamers/players; not that I have anything against them, but variety is the spice of life. And memb does an excellent job of playing off them. I really enjoyed spaden(viper) and half asleep slam And the gold being way off in Canada

 

[kalcium]

As I only join the AoE community way after Memb and Katsuni did a lot of co-cast, I don’t have any nostalgia. But seriously, that duo is FREAKING AMAZING AND FUN! Was laughing all the time when I watch them 11

 

[Rey_Fer]

#depends, I guess?
The opposite can also often be the case if, say, there's an upset and then both players have still a chance of meeting again in the same tournament
Imagine RBW2 with Capoch beating MbL and then meeting him again a few rounds later and what kind of hype that would generate. (similar things happened in DMWC too iirc)

not saying that loser bracket would be necessarily a great solution for KotD but I don't think its bad per se

thus it ocmpletely kills hype as you know that the first loss doesn't count. OK great capoch defeated Mbl, but for what, in the end Mbl will still come up in a better position.

In RBW2 this was huge because it was a kill or die match, everyone was at 100% and capoch won.

lozja defeated theviper in Moa3, but it wasn't important and nobody remembers because viper won the tournament anyway. Same with finland and brazil in SYNC3