It makes no sense that AoE2:DE is played on different files in competitions

[knightlifeaoc]

Hello!


I think that AoE2:DE is pretty nice, I play it a lot casually.
But it feels like the devs/management stopped working/failed on certain stuff, e.g. monetization, app security, team game experience.
One of those things, which stand out for me most, is the fact that the game is played on different files, on ladder and in competitions.

We have seen it all, from range indications on mangos/xbow, unicolor ground textures, ressource numbers above the minimap, TC/boar position guesser on the minimap, flat foundation/building sprites, and so on.
Imagine changing similar assets in other games (esports) like StarCraft, CounterStrike, or Dota!
The application is completly tamperable besides that, which I don't want to get into here. But playing on the same files in containers and checksum everything wouldn't hurt, I guess.

My personal opinion is:
-Only ingame settings should be allowed for ranked or competitions, no mods
-Useless plant removal, small trees, left/right/center minimap position should be ingame settings
-Range indications, even on TCs and towers, don't belong the game
-If some assets still have bad visibility they should be updated

What's your opinion, which settings you think are legit?
Would you like to see your competitors/favorite high level players on restricted but similar settings?
Do you host/admin a tournament and think restrictions can be made, such as a mod whitelist?
Let me know :-P


Best regards!

 

[kalpit00]

Mods are getting out of hand, agreed.

My 2-cents, restrict usage of mods in competitive tournaments which give one person a clear advantage - like Boar/TC position guesser and Tower Range Indicator.

I really think though, that legacy mods which improve the smoothness and visibility in the game are very important, especially in tournaments. So Small trees, useless plant remover and grid mod - these three should be auto enabled if possible.

Where do we draw the line? Basically any mod which starts giving in-game information which is "calculated" by the mod should be restricted - like Tower Range or TC position guesser. It counteracts with skill - normally you scout your enemy to find their TC 11 or you count the tiles to judge the correct tower placement, etc etc.

This being said, graphic mods like cube mods are a case which can be debatable, but its upto the players to decide if they want to use it or not. Its the same argument as small trees - With big trees you may have holes, so use small trees, or rather just use cube mod if you can bare the ugliness, it doesn't give a mathematical advantage to one person by the usage of the mod.

 

[Mouttie]

afaik, mods are visual, so you have access to this information without mods. mods just present them in a different way.

 

[LowEloNobody]

TC, Castle, and Tower Range is just an in game setting, so using it is just using the dev supplied settings in the game.

It hasn't been against the rules to use most visual mods in DE tourneys, and you still don't see Viper/Hera/Lierrey/Yo using crazy mango circles or boar guessers - because it isn't something that helps them win the game.

The only "near-pro" player who has used crazy mods (mostly mango circles) is Hoang, who goes out in the Ro64 or Ro128 in every tourney he enters.

And even Hoang stopped using them because they are so ridiculous

 

[NachoAoE]

afaik, mods are visual, so you have access to this information without mods. mods just present them in a different way.

kind of... I mean yes but not really. Imagine if in Cs:GO you could make everything full black and your opponent full sharp green, just to see them a lot better and have an advantage. Yes, you could see the player before, but it's not allowed in competitive play.
I don't have an answer if it's right or wrong, and I think it's more opinion than facts. But OP has a solid point of having both players play on same ground

 

[willdbeast]

kind of... I mean yes but not really. Imagine if in Cs:GO you could make everything full black and your opponent full sharp green, just to see them a lot better and have an advantage. Yes, you could see the player before, but it's not allowed in competitive play.
I don't have an answer if it's right or wrong, and I think it's more opinion than facts. But OP has a solid point of having both players play on same ground

I think this is a good point but for me the difference in the type of game makes a difference here too. In csgo reacting quickly and accurately to visual information is perhaps the single most important skill element (though strategy certainly plays a big part too) whereas in aoe I at least like to think the strategy etc is the main skill and the responding to the visual information just enables you to do it. But that's just my opinion on what the "true nature" of the game is meant to be.

 

[teutonic_tanks]

Every visual mod should always be allowed imo. It's one of the biggest advantages of aoe over other games, that you have insane mod support. Minimap is too small? Np, download a mod and you will get a bigger size. A player colour isnt visible enough, you can just download a mod. Whatever problem you have with ingame settings (fish isn't visible enough, trees too big, relics not visible enough), you can just mod it. Since the tastes from mod to mod vary a lot, it's good that there isnt just a fixed set of mods, you can use. One just needs to play a few aoe4 games to notice what a difference very good mod support as aoe2 has makes and this shouldnt be restricted imo.

 

[Huehuecoyotl22]

For me it's much more a question about whether it can be controlled. It's only possible if the screen is monitored or a POV stream is available, which might be reasonable in main stages of S tier tournaments or even top 8 or so of A tier tournaments, but it will reduce gameplay quality.

As a host and viewer I am happy if I don't have to watch big animals, removed snow, colourful circles, cubes or only pines, but I also want the players to be comfortable playing. So if they prefer that, I can live with it. It's always important to find the balance between fairness/cheating prevention and player comfort though, so discussion is important to stay up to date.

 

[Lokalo]

Every visual mod should always be allowed imo. It's one of the biggest advantages of aoe over other games, that you have insane mod support. Minimap is too small? Np, download a mod and you will get a bigger size. A player colour isnt visible enough, you can just download a mod. Whatever problem you have with ingame settings (fish isn't visible enough, trees too big, relics not visible enough), you can just mod it. Since the tastes from mod to mod vary a lot, it's good that there isnt just a fixed set of mods, you can use. One just needs to play a few aoe4 games to notice what a difference very good mod support as aoe2 has makes and this shouldnt be restricted imo.

And no one has issues with mods changing visuals here, at least seems so far everyone agrees small trees are or even cube modes are fine, no one disagreed with it yet. However circles of where enemy tc should be is not just visual thing, it provides extra information. Or for example mod showing monks which still have 100% stamina, it's far from only visual thing, it provides very important extra information which gives an advantage.

 

[Shakal]

However circles of where enemy tc should be is not just visual thing, it provides extra information.

Current arabia script places both tcs on one circle with fixed radius (there was an entire thread about it) so there is no extra information, it's just showing it in a way that is significantly easier for player to see. It is very similar to mango range, where you have the information about mango's position and range, but without the mod it is much harder to see exactly what is and isn't in the range.
That said, I agree that it shouldn't be a thing, although maybe changing map script is better way of fixing it than restricting mods.

 

[MaSmOrRa]

Current arabia script places both tcs on one circle with fixed radius (there was an entire thread about it) so there is no extra information, it's just showing it in a way that is significantly easier for player to see. It is very similar to mango range, where you have the information about mango's position and range, but without the mod it is much harder to see exactly what is and isn't in the range.
That said, I agree that it shouldn't be a thing, although maybe changing map script is better way of fixing it than restricting mods.

I thought they did change that after it was made public, am I wrong?

 

[Lokalo]

Current arabia script places both tcs on one circle with fixed radius (there was an entire thread about it) so there is no extra information, it's just showing it in a way that is significantly easier for player to see.

Which is extra information, look ar Liereyy, one of top players and running with scout into tc very often, doubt he would run into tc as often with this thing. You can say is easy to imagine the circle and blah blah, but that's the point, is possible, but it's not that simple. When you need to judge distance yourself your judgement often can be wrong, also when you scout wrong side first it somehow at least for me tricks a bit my mind even more.

I thought they did change that after it was made public, am I wrong?

It was changed a bit, but maybe mod was adjusted too, not sure, but mod works pretty much perfectly still as far as I know.

Also seems devs agree with me, that such mods are too much, that's why they implemented range into the game, so everyone can use it. Is like, if you can't defeat the cheater, join the cheaters. Although I suppose making in game similar circle wouldn't look good 11.

 

[Huehuecoyotl22]

Current arabia script places both tcs on one circle with fixed radius (there was an entire thread about it) so there is no extra information, it's just showing it in a way that is significantly easier for player to see. It is very similar to mango range, where you have the information about mango's position and range, but without the mod it is much harder to see exactly what is and isn't in the range.
That said, I agree that it shouldn't be a thing, although maybe changing map script is better way of fixing it than restricting mods.

It's actually not a circle, but with some variance, but it's correct that it's (very) close to it. How much the variance is depends on the exact map script (not sure what the current Arabia is, but it changed from patch to patch).
But in 1v1 (tiny map), there usually is not that much variance possible if you want to have a fair map. Even if it could be 5 % more to the back or front, by scouting in the circle, you would probably find berries, golds, etc. that clearly belong to the opponent.

 

[GorLeon]

This has been discussed so many times over the years, yet some people still fail to understand that:

1) Modding (visual modding too; imagine playing without Small Trees on actual competitive play) kept this game alive. And it still gives momentum to it from time to time.
2) Based on how the game itself has been created, the only way to require all the players to have exactly the same game assets would be to check every one of them before every game. A huge waste of time and memory in my opinion.
3) Any comparison with other games doesn't make any sense. Would anyone in good faith actually compare Starcraft 2's visual with AOE2's?
4) There is no mod that gives any unfair advantage, because "unfair" implies that the other person can't have the same, which isn't the case. You can't say that the Mangonel Range Mod is unfair, if it's you who rightfully choose not to use it for your own taste.

 

[Lokalo]

4) There is no mod that gives any unfair advantage, because "unfair" implies that the other person can't have the same, which isn't the case. You can't say that the Mangonel Range Mod is unfair, if it's you who rightfully choose not to use it for your own taste.

That is just flat dumb and mistaken. You can't know all mods what there are or keep searching for new mods being created which can help you in the game. And many mods many of us know only because we have seen it on someones screen.

Honestly for me is hard to even understand how someone can say having such circles or mods which shows monks who still have energy to convert and anything from that nature that simply gives knowledge which you should be looking by yourself is normal. Mods are great, we all using them and I agree small tree mod should be in the game long time ago. But how you can compare stuff like circle with visuals. Soon we will say map hacks are fine, cuz you still need to win, right? There is difference where game was just designed badly in a way, that trees make it impossible to see, so mod kind of fixes what should have been fixed by devs.

However on serious note, I understand is easier to say than to do, hardly see how they can check or ban such mods, not sure how they work, but I imagine people pretty much just add whatever they want without any checking of devs and checking everything would add tons of work.

 

[Zbyszek]

There is still no ingame setting for small trees? KEKW OMEGALIDL rofl
Has dev support run out for this game?
Good thing the voobly servers are still up.

 

[LowEloNobody]

There is still no ingame setting for small trees? KEKW OMEGALIDL rofl
Has dev support run out for this game?
Good thing the voobly servers are still up.

There's an official mod, so not really a big deal IMO

 

[GorLeon]

not sure how they work

Yeah, that's why you don't understand the point at all. Anyone can create a mod and keep it for themselves, because you're allowed to do it either by adding it to your local mods, or by directly replacing the game files with the modded ones. So yeah, we could make an argument that this shouldn't be the case, because it puts those who do know how to mod in an advantageous position. But I was referring to very well known mods like the Mangonel Range Mod, published, approved and available to whoever wants them. If you don't know them, it's unfortunate, not unfair.

 

[kalpit00]

4) There is no mod that gives any unfair advantage, because "unfair" implies that the other person can't have the same, which isn't the case. You can't say that the Mangonel Range Mod is unfair, if it's you who rightfully choose not to use it for your own taste

Monk Juice mod - uses game data to show which monk has 100% faith, or shows which monk is converting which unit by a beam of light. Ok, fair enough, "all the information is already present, the mod just creates visibility".

2 years later, total units/villagers in screen mod - "this mod uses game data to count the total number of villagers/military units, etc in that part of the screen". Same argument as before, all the information is present, the mod just improves visibility (2 xbow army fighting, you can clearly see all the enemy army as its in your vision, but you cannot mathematically count the numbers while fighting, you just judge the numbers, wellll this mod gives you "visibility of already present information" in seconds)

 

[Lokalo]

Yeah, that's why you don't understand the point at all. Anyone can create a mod and keep it for themselves, because you're allowed to do it either by adding it to your local mods, or by directly replacing the game files with the modded ones. So yeah, we could make an argument that this shouldn't be the case, because it puts those who do know how to mod in an advantageous position. But I was referring to very well known mods like the Mangonel Range Mod, published, approved and available to whoever wants them. If you don't know them, it's unfortunate, not unfair.

Published and approved by who? Although it doesn't matter even a single bit how much I understand about mods technical part, now topic is where is the line between unfair advantage/cheating or however you call it. Because basically what you are saying is that I can go and create and change files however I want and there cheats do not exist. Or where do you draw the line where is the cheating and not then? Or map hacks are fine, because it's just an addition to the files? And if you don't have cheats, well that's unfortunate.

 

[GorLeon]

Monk Juice mod - uses game data to show which monk has 100% faith, or shows which monk is converting which unit by a beam of light. Ok, fair enough, "all the information is already present, the mod just creates visibility".

2 years later, total units/villagers in screen mod - "this mod uses game data to count the total number of villagers/military units, etc in that part of the screen". Same argument as before, all the information is present, the mod just improves visibility (2 xbow army fighting, you can clearly see all the enemy army as its in your vision, but you cannot mathematically count the numbers while fighting, you just judge the numbers, wellll this mod gives you "visibility of already present information" in seconds)

What you're talking about can only be achieved through an external overlay. Which would (or at least should) be recognized by the anti-cheat (provided it even exists on DE), leading to a ban for the player. No visual mod can show you any of these informations, because visual mods can only modify static assets, they can't "read" or "write" in real time.

Published and approved by who? Although it doesn't matter even a single bit how much I understand about mods technical part, now topic is where is the line between unfair advantage/cheating or however you call it. Because basically what you are saying is that I can go and create and change files however I want and there cheats do not exist. Or where do you draw the line where is the cheating and not then? Or map hacks are fine, because it's just an addition to the files? And if you don't have cheats, well that's unfortunate.

No, you can't change the files however you want. If you change certain files, the game goes out of sync. It's impossible to play against another player with a manipulated .exe file, unless it's a data mod and the other player uses the same.
Cheating is what kalpit00 is hinting to. If you use an overlay that shows you information you're not supposed to be shown, then it's cheating and you should be banned. The line doesn't need to exist, because we're talking about entirely different things. No mod can tell you anything about the map you're playing, because those files are loaded before the game even starts.
Mods need to be published in a certain way in the workshop. You're right that nobody actually approves them on DE (on Voobly, instead, they do need to be approved, for example), but they don't get uploaded if you put not moddable files into them.

 

[LowEloNobody]

What you're talking about can only be achieved through an external overlay. Which would (or at least should) be recognized by the anti-cheat (provided it even exists on DE), leading to a ban for the player. No visual mod can show you any of these informations, because visual mods can only modify static assets, they can't "read" or "write" in real time.


No, you can't change the files however you want. If you change certain files, the game goes out of sync. It's impossible to play against another player with a manipulated .exe file, unless it's a data mod and the other player uses the same.
Cheating is what kalpit00 is hinting to. If you use an overlay that shows you information you're not supposed to be shown, then it's cheating and you should be banned. The line doesn't need to exist, because we're talking about entirely different things. No mod can tell you anything about the map you're playing, because those files are loaded before the game even starts.
Mods need to be published in a certain way in the workshop. You're right that nobody actually approves them on DE (on Voobly, instead, they do need to be approved, for example), but they don't get uploaded if you put not moddable files into them.

The visual mod for Monk faith just replaces the monk faith bar (already exists in-game) with a pointer

 

[GorLeon]

The visual mod for Monk faith just replaces the monk faith bar (already exists in-game) with a pointer

Yeah, I was referring to the "2 years later..." part.

 

[Progeusz]

Monk Juice mod - uses game data to show which monk has 100% faith, or shows which monk is converting which unit by a beam of light. Ok, fair enough, "all the information is already present, the mod just creates visibility".

This is straight up cheating. Might as well display enemy blacksmith upgrades the moment you see their units, it's exact same thing as checking monk's faith.

 

[knightlifeaoc]

I think certain mods like res above minimap, short buildings, foundation labels or mangonel range are powerful and not just looks.

It's true that most top players are close to the vanilla game, maybe they think it's the way the game should be played. Maybe they do it for their viewers, to make watching easier and avoid any discussion.