Is TheViper's dynasty over?

[heheloveer]

I see people saying about stomach, as I don't have twitter nor read it, when it started? As it seems people claiming Viper lost to Villese of it too, as I heard about it just yesterday, did he have it since start or people just as always come up with 20 excuses? I mean yesterday ofc it could have affected, he also didn't practice during the day as I understand, so that's totally understandable, but what about series with Villese?

https://twitter.com/Debbie8190/status/1635814936453447680

As far as I know this probably impacted his performance against Hera also but should have nothing to do with the Villese set.

 

[uberkerl]

Gallstones dont come overnight.
But Villese has a positive record against Viper for a reason. its not like the group stage matter a whole lot in this tournament.

 

[SaladEsc]

I better keep an eye on high places around the school for Viper’s Gallstones

 

[TopperHarley]

Viper is still gonna win this tournament easily

 

[Chezdon]

Viper is still gonna win this tournament easily

Nah, Vinch not really at the same level as Villese, Hera, Liereyy, Yo or Tatoh. Reckon it'll be close sets tomorrow, both possibly going 4-2 or 4-3. Hera and Liereyy look miles ahead though.

 

[Halleju]

Is this the insider foreshadowing we all needed, please?
[AM] Vinch?

Who cares about teams seriously. There are probably 2-3 team tournaments a year worth mentioning. There is a reason, why teams have never established themselves in all rts games throughout history. Simply because rts is way more exciting in an 1vs1 format.

 

[Lokalo]

Nah, Vinch not really at the same level as Villese, Hera, Liereyy, Yo or Tatoh. Reckon it'll be close sets tomorrow, both possibly going 4-2 or 4-3. Hera and Liereyy look miles ahead though.

I don't know for me personally was hard to watch vinch vs viper, maybe I'm wrong, but for me vinch just did terrible mistakes. I didn't understand at all that xbow play vs gurjaras, gurjaras have nothing to stop EW without chakrams/longswords. And if you prolong game aztecs have nothing to stop shrivamshas+chakrams, so it felt so weird choice, going EW and trying to raid/deny side resources feels just way more natural. Another game with mongols... Walls whole area, then gets disturbed and builds tower and never finishes to wall right side and gets raided all game. I don't know, it's just so sloppy seeing every game losing tons of vills/momentum because of not being walled. You see him having a good opening and then boom gets raided and gets behind a lot and even if he is winning in a game he still manages to somehow try to throw it. Idk, it just doesn't work vs top players.

 

[kalpit00]

I don't know for me personally was hard to watch vinch vs viper, maybe I'm wrong, but for me vinch just did terrible mistakes. I didn't understand at all that xbow play vs gurjaras, gurjaras have nothing to stop EW without chakrams/longswords. And if you prolong game aztecs have nothing to stop shrivamshas+chakrams, so it felt so weird choice, going EW and trying to raid/deny side resources feels just way more natural. Another game with mongols... Walls whole area, then gets disturbed and builds tower and never finishes to wall right side and gets raided all game. I don't know, it's just so sloppy seeing every game losing tons of vills/momentum because of not being walled. You see him having a good opening and then boom gets raided and gets behind a lot and even if he is winning in a game he still manages to somehow try to throw it. Idk, it just doesn't work vs top players.

Outcrop really suits Viper style though. If there's some players who I would pick to play a boomy, position oriented map, its Viper, Daut or Yo. I remember Tatoh once said in an interview, he was asked "who comes up with the strategies when practicing, you or Daut?" And Tatoh said they both brainstorm strategies, but the first game Daut always wins because the macro that goes behind setting up your winning condition (not from the opening strategy point of view, but from the transitioning point of view) - Daut is just insane.
For example, if you remember Shoals where Tatoh had the masterclass performance of Italians in RBW6, that is one such hybrid map, where even though the opening strategy is one thing (water or drush/scouts or FC or whatever), its the next transition from that and the most optimal macro skills to set yourself up for your winning condition : in this map which was 3 tc boom into faster imp Condo timing and contesting that side of gold with castle + treb/bbc/genbow where enemy is taking gold.

Like you mentioned in the last sentence, Vinch has good opening strategies, but from there after loses vils to raids and such (and then ends up in those cycles where he overbooms to 160 vils yet has 10 mins of idle tc time : just not optimal macro compared to others).

Both Outcrop and African Reed Beds really suited Viper style. Outcrop because it's not like arabia where the xbow timing can kill you, as long as you are able to spread to the sides, than with some cav raiding and siege defense, u can come back in the game - exactly what happened.
African Reed Beds even more positional oriented with the golds and stones in the 3 hills, 2 lakes and shorefish in the middle. that Daut vs Nicov game Spanish vs Berbers on this map from Q2 is still the best game of 2023 for me, because any other map and daut loses but he recognized his one and only winning condition and somehow got to it (and it was so complex not like just straight boom to it, he had to survive the entire castle age with conqs vs Camel Archers while macroing and outwinning Nicov in the transition)

 

[Lokalo]

Both Outcrop and African Reed Beds really suited Viper style. Outcrop because it's not like arabia where the xbow timing can kill you, as long as you are able to spread to the sides, than with some cav raiding and siege defense, u can come back in the game - exactly what happened.

Yes, but that's exactly what I'm saying, is not Viper's benefit really, that's what disapoints me. Many top players would have won there similarly I think, nothing special that Viper did there at all. And that's where my frustration comes from, he was banking to do dmg with xbow very early and if you don't you basically have to try FI into arbs as shrivamsha just kills xbow easily and pikemen in castle age is meh, especially in such big map and if you boom after opening xbow vs gurjaras as aztecs you just lose. While other pros unless is arena do not bank on one play as much. Opening EW you have ability to raid and deny expantion and make game chaotic and controling golds and stones. Viper had to mine some stone outside just to get a tc, imagine having some EW running around while being already on 2 tc yourself with aztecs.IF they can't get chakrams how they deal vs EW? Although to be fair he didn't even have bodkin for very long so I don't understand at all what was his plan there. Is just hard to watch when you see dude has 20 xbow sitting at home vs gurjaras and you know it's already gg as the longer game goes the better for gurjaras it gets

 

[kalpit00]

Yes, but that's exactly what I'm saying, is not Viper's benefit really, that's what disapoints me. Many top players would have won there similarly I think, nothing special that Viper did there at all. And that's where my frustration comes from, he was banking to do dmg with xbow very early and if you don't you basically have to try FI into arbs as shrivamsha just kills xbow easily and pikemen in castle age is meh, especially in such big map and if you boom after opening xbow vs gurjaras as aztecs you just lose. While other pros unless is arena do not bank on one play as much. Opening EW you have ability to raid and deny expantion and make game chaotic and controling golds and stones. Viper had to mine some stone outside just to get a tc, imagine having some EW running around while being already on 2 tc yourself with aztecs.IF they can't get chakrams how they deal vs EW? Although to be fair he didn't even have bodkin for very long so I don't understand at all what was his plan there. Is just hard to watch when you see dude has 20 xbow sitting at home vs gurjaras and you know it's already gg as the longer game goes the better for gurjaras it gets

True, i gave all the credit to Viper but yea matter of fact remains, if that was Hera or Liereyy or even Villese (kappa no kappa) they would have suffocated Viper in that position and probably closed out the game. Sucks that happened, vinch definitely knows it was a mistake you if ask him. Idk I guess there's could be lots of reasons, bad day maybe or exhaustion as NAC is quite a long tournament

 

[FireBall37]

I don't like it when people talk about maps/settings suiting Viper's style or his "strengths," because I have yet to see reasonable evidence that shows that differences in Viper's performances are due to anything other than him just not playing as well as he has in the past (so called "classic" Viper)

 

[kalpit00]

I don't like it when people talk about maps/settings suiting Viper's style or his "strengths," because I have yet to see reasonable evidence that shows that differences in Viper's performances are due to anything other than him just not playing as well as he has in the past (so called "classic" Viper)

Even in the past, Viper's most formidable opponent was Liereyy. He himself said so

There was this crazy stat a couple of years that Viper lost like 1 in maybe 50 games which went past imperial age that he wasn't already massively behind (the 1 game being HC2 semifinal vs MBL where mbl went chinese BBTs in a 2 hr long arabia game).

Viper would somehow always come back and win (like he did vs Vinch yesterday)

What this tells us that its not that Viper isn't playing as good. It's that players have gotten good at closing games out.

And yes maps play a role. Feudal age is completely different from castle age

Maps where you are forced to fight in feudal age favor Hera, Liereyy more than Viper.
Maps where you can safely get to castle age and boom up favors players like Viper, Daut

Why? Because of comeback mechanics. In castle age you have more safety, can drop tcs on extra golds, have mangonels and monks to comeback if behind in army numbers.

In feudal age, micro is extremely important. if you can force your opponent into microing units and you have potentially better micro (also in case of hera liereyy, high APMs allowing u to drop down farms while opponent may float 200+ wood), it favors you because there is no comeback mechanic, you snowball and the opponent has only 1 tower, economies are fragile so they cannot allows buy a second tower, cannot run to secondary golds safely (no extra tcs) and the army will just follow you and it becomes gg

Players style make difference. As a player you want a map where your strengths can shine. Viper wants a map like outcrop where if he gets to castle age with a 2nd tc, he can safely boom, drop a castle and take the game to imp where he can win due to better decision making. Meanwhile Hera probably wants a map like Hippopotamus or Rocky Forest with lots of feudal aggression where he can potentially outplay TheViper

 

[FireBall37]

Even in the past, Viper's most formidable opponent was Liereyy. He himself said so

There was this crazy stat a couple of years that Viper lost like 1 in maybe 50 games which went past imperial age that he wasn't already massively behind (the 1 game being HC2 semifinal vs MBL where mbl went chinese BBTs in a 2 hr long arabia game).

Viper would somehow always come back and win (like he did vs Vinch yesterday)

What this tells us that its not that Viper isn't playing as good. It's that players have gotten good at closing games out.

And yes maps play a role. Feudal age is completely different from castle age

Maps where you are forced to fight in feudal age favor Hera, Liereyy more than Viper.
Maps where you can safely get to castle age and boom up favors players like Viper, Daut

Why? Because of comeback mechanics. In castle age you have more safety, can drop tcs on extra golds, have mangonels and monks to comeback if behind in army numbers.

In feudal age, micro is extremely important. if you can force your opponent into microing units and you have potentially better micro (also in case of hera liereyy, high APMs allowing u to drop down farms while opponent may float 200+ wood), it favors you because there is no comeback mechanic, you snowball and the opponent has only 1 tower, economies are fragile so they cannot allows buy a second tower, cannot run to secondary golds safely (no extra tcs) and the army will just follow you and it becomes gg

Players style make difference. As a player you want a map where your strengths can shine. Viper wants a map like outcrop where if he gets to castle age with a 2nd tc, he can safely boom, drop a castle and take the game to imp where he can win due to better decision making. Meanwhile Hera probably wants a map like Hippopotamus or Rocky Forest with lots of feudal aggression where he can potentially outplay TheViper

I'd disagree that Viper is worse at micro

 

[kalpit00]

I'd disagree that Viper is worse at micro

i agree with your statement. Viper is equally good at micro with anyone else
Viper vs Liereyy 10 v 10 archers. Fight could go either way
But,
It's everything that happens behind the scenes. Liereyy drops farms faster than Viper. All the hundreds of actions that players do while microing, like walling, micromanaging vils, etc is "better" for liereyy because of his faster speed

Watching player povs you can tell. When Liereyy micros archers, it looks effortless. He is in comfort zone, it doesn't exhaust him as much. Whereas Viper probably has to break a sweat to perform the same level of micro and the macro behind it

 

[Hyperion]

 

[Beanslinger]

 

[FireBall37]

But,
It's everything that happens behind the scenes. Liereyy drops farms faster than Viper. All the hundreds of actions that players do while microing, like walling, micromanaging vils, etc is "better" for liereyy because of his faster speed

Watching player povs you can tell. When Liereyy micros archers, it looks effortless. He is in comfort zone, it doesn't exhaust him as much. Whereas Viper probably has to break a sweat to perform the same level of micro and the macro behind it

agree to disagree i guess

 

[Chezdon]

I don't know for me personally was hard to watch vinch vs viper, maybe I'm wrong, but for me vinch just did terrible mistakes. I didn't understand at all that xbow play vs gurjaras, gurjaras have nothing to stop EW without chakrams/longswords. And if you prolong game aztecs have nothing to stop shrivamshas+chakrams, so it felt so weird choice, going EW and trying to raid/deny side resources feels just way more natural. Another game with mongols... Walls whole area, then gets disturbed and builds tower and never finishes to wall right side and gets raided all game. I don't know, it's just so sloppy seeing every game losing tons of vills/momentum because of not being walled. You see him having a good opening and then boom gets raided and gets behind a lot and even if he is winning in a game he still manages to somehow try to throw it. Idk, it just doesn't work vs top players.

Dunno but I called the 4-3s and today I'm calling 5-1/2s (for Leireyy and Hera obviously). I'm hoping for a Yo vs Viper final though.

 

[AlBundy95]

Yup, Yo vs Viper would be most epic final from all of possibilities.

 

[otw_Da]

In the last two years team GL seems to had an advantage draft and tactic wise over aM. But in NAC4 aM showed they caught up maybe even left them behind. How will team GL react in the future? On the micro level is there a chance to play better then hera/liereyy. Some intresting times are coming in AoE.

I have the hope GL will finally find another new member that fits them skillwise and maybe is even able to improve them to bring more competition and fire. I wanna see a more hungry GL.

 

[SouFire]

The problem with GL is that they have a team of adults that have different priorities on their lives, theviper reign seems to be over, from last year he has been less and less dominant he only got one big thingy instead of most of them like he used to.

GL needs to recruit one of those Argentinian kids below 20 years old if they pretend to stay relevant in aoe2 for the next 2-4 years, cause sadly from the last GL aoe2 events none of their players has been able to get a victory in fact it has been ruled by AM players.

 

[Beanslinger]

I love Hera but I hope Liereyy wins this one. His last S tier win was in 2021. For comparison, 'washed up' Viper has won six S tier events since then, and Hera and Yo both with 3.

Personally I would be so frustrated coming second all the time so it'd be nice to have him bring one home and end the Hera dominance this tourney, and it would be a good storyline for the tournament

 

[The Bloodless]

The problem with GL is that they have a team of adults that have different priorities on their lives, theviper reign seems to be over, from last year he has been less and less dominant he only got one big thingy instead of most of them like he used to.

GL needs to recruit one of those Argentinian kids below 20 years old if they pretend to stay relevant in aoe2 for the next 2-4 years, cause sadly from the last GL aoe2 events none of their players has been able to get a victory in fact it has been ruled by AM players.

Pretty sure GL is still taking more or at least the same amount of big tourney placements. Don't underestimate the tyrants

 

[heheloveer]

The problem with GL is that they have a team of adults that have different priorities on their lives, theviper reign seems to be over, from last year he has been less and less dominant he only got one big thingy instead of most of them like he used to.

GL needs to recruit one of those Argentinian kids below 20 years old if they pretend to stay relevant in aoe2 for the next 2-4 years, cause sadly from the last GL aoe2 events none of their players has been able to get a victory in fact it has been ruled by AM players.

According to Liquipedia, there were 7 S-tier solo EW/RM tournaments in 2022. Viper won 2 of them, Yo won 2 of them, while the rest were won by Vinchester, Hera and TaToH respectively. 3 wins for GL and only 1 for AM. And the first S-tier tournament in 2023 was also won by Viper. The AM domination only exists in your imagination.

 

[Steeldust]

Gallstones dont come overnight.
But Villese has a positive record against Viper for a reason. its not like the group stage matter a whole lot in this tournament.

They don't come over night, that one is true but the pain does come over night.