Is TheViper's dynasty over?

[Lokalo]

Honestly even from warlords it felt like Hera was doing really well the longer game goes. Lately Hera overall has amazing defending skills and showed us few really good come backs. I would say Hera is better now in defensive style than Viper, although Viper perhaps still has an edge on strategy and his castle positioning and such things, but in warlords many games Hera lost vs Viper he lost very early and later almost coming back. Steppe vs Viper map was good example, it felt like is total gg, but Hera made a game out of it.

I think Hera might be least consistent because of nerves, but it's his time. He is as good as those other 2, but he puts double time into it. And I'm happy Hera won, putting so much time, being constantly mentioned as top3 and not winning a title for long, that's good for community that winners switch, also Hera can maybe relax a bit going into next tournament.

 

[kalpit00]

He is as good as those other 2, but he puts double time into it. And I'm happy Hera won, putting so much time, being constantly mentioned as top3 and not winning a title for long, that's good for community that winners switch, also Hera can maybe relax a bit going into next tournament.

agreed 100% watching Hera feels like its a classic case of talent vs hard work. i mean its a video game yes so anyone can get good if you commit the time - But Viper-Liereyy have been top2 for me all these years because Liereyy feels like a natural for AoE2 and Viper is an RTS God. They just make it look easy don't they? (watching Viper quickwall and liereyy micro archer pov i just go pftttt). And so happy Hera won, because when he plays you can see the guy is working hard and putting in the efforts. Also agree about relaxing 11, when Viper/Liereyy are in finals they are so calm and collected (Poker Face) while Hera you can feel the tension on his face 11

 

[Beanslinger]

The top 4/5 players just don't sweep each other anymore, HC3 was really the last time that happened. Nowadays yhe closest we get to total domination is viper doing a 4-2 to Hera and Liereyy, which is impressive as hell but shows how high the skill floor is now

 

[HeavyReynald]

Bait.

 

[akku]

Yeah, the skill level has closed up considerably, to the point we see a "top 4" instead of a unanimous top 1 guy. I think part of it is Viper slowly getting weaker as well, due to his wrist issues.

Then there is the fact that not only has the "top 4" gotten closer than ever before.
But the next "tier" (basically guys like Tatoh, Vinch, Daut, Jordan, Villese) has also closed the gap between their tier and the "top 4".
Which has further increased the competition to the top 4 and hence Viper.

You could have guys like Tatoh or Daut taking sets away from the top 4 on their good day, and nobody would be shocked even if it's an upset.
Heck, in grand melee itself, Daut and Jordan almost knocked out both the finalists in quarters.


Still, Viper is still no1 if we look at the "average" performance, and would be the favourite in all 1v1 sets. Just that he isn't the undisputed goldenboi anymore.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Huh

 

[Shakal]

Huh

vIpEr tRoLlS In sHoWmAtChEs aNd sMaLl tOuRnAmEnTs

 

[Lokalo]

vIpEr tRoLlS In sHoWmAtChEs aNd sMaLl tOuRnAmEnTs

Exactly like that, right after he lost the final today 11

But it makes sense, guys from top4 must be not competitive at all, right? right?

I seriously nowadays have hard time differentiating where people are trolling and where people are actually serious about Viper trolling.

 

[kalpit00]

Viper wasn't trolling in the finals by any means. Trolling is when a player plays only to have fun witout the intention of winning (aka some strats like khmer ballista elephant, almost never viable but fun to play)

For sure Viper was not trolling. AoE2 at the highest level is so taxing you have no idea, it is hard to keep up the levels for 5+ hours. Viper 3-0ed Hera, his performance vs him was insane, if you watch his pov you can tell he was thinking every move through. Vs ACCM, he was also playing to win, but probably was tired in the later half, and things started going the other way - keep in mind ACCM made a 1-3 comeback to win 4-3, so he played his maps and civs to victory

• Japanese vs Mayans on Fish n Fish - huge civ adv for japan and ACCM won mid, so game was over quickly.
• Byz vs Franks on Arabia - ACCM played to his civ strengths - full walled, made minimal skirms forcing viper into sc-arch, and then went double stable (maybe triple?) and opened kts first to clear the first wave of xbow, and then went full cheap byz camel to overrun. He also added xbows to counter the pikes, played double gold comp which is doable with byz and viper had little chance to win that one. (If viper was trolling, he would not try to go the all-in paladin powerplay which accm was already prepared with halbs for)
• Ring of Reeds - Turks vs Portuguese. great tactical play by accm to go outside food eco, and he went army in middle because he knew viper would want the berries in middle as he was portuguese, ended up idling viper's food eco and giving lead to castle age.

The last three games ACCM played his civs to perfection. But let's not forget Viper absolutely crushed him in G2, 3 and 4

• Atacama : Khmer vs Huns : viper went barracks as khmer, not expected, and went full feudal to seal the deal. just idle time and few vil kils snowballed to victory, feudal pressure is too hard on such open maps
• Arena : malay vs bohemians: really impressive calls from viper, spotted the range (which ACCM tried to delete to hide he was going castle age HC s11) and prepared xbows with thumb ring ballistic. ACCM had the prepared strategy to siege tower hop in, but viper was waiting with xbows hidden 11 and from there on it was an easy convert for viper with imp timing
• Gold Rush : Poles vs Spanish: the most impressive game of all - Viper really defended Conqs + siege with 1 range E skirm and 1 monastry monk - this was so well executed (Probably poles are the reason because folwark farms giving instant food is so nice for overall macro micro cycles)

TL:DR; is anyone happy ACCM won this tourney, vs Viper of all people? I am really happy for him <3

 

[LowEloNobody]

It has now been over 60 seconds since Viper won his last S-tier event.
Is Viper washed up?

 

[Chezdon]

Exactly like that, right after he lost the final today 11
View attachment 204673
But it makes sense, guys from top4 must be not competitive at all, right? right?

I seriously nowadays have hard time differentiating where people are trolling and where people are actually serious about Viper trolling.

Thought I recognised that name... ;D

Don't even remember what happened that game but didn't expect a 4-1 just now... pretty underwhelming final. Maps sucked in general. Even Cross is over-used and boring.

 

[Hyperion]

There's just no stopping him.

 

[Shakal]

is this thread still needed?

 

[Maurice8]

Villese is by far the toughest enemy for Viper. He must have much better records against both Yo, Lierrey and Hera.
I felt like in all the games Villese had better civs. Still 3-0 is impressive for Villese, wp.

 

[Zeev]

Man, it really is over

Villese-Viper 3-0
Hera-Viper 3-0
Liereyy-Viper 3-0.

 

[orangereaper]

In general GL players are in heavy decline. Its probably a combination of age, skills, and motivation.
That said, Hera and Lierry are in top form and highly motivated.

That said, some of the draft choices and game play was far from perfect.

Anyway wp to AM boyz and Vinch.

Ofc, the more important question is when does Jordan's comeback end?

 

[Elvaenor]

In general GL players are in heavy decline. Its probably a combination of age, skills, and motivation.
That said, Hera and Lierry are in top form and highly motivated.

If you take 2022 and 2023 S-tier 1v1 tournaments, according to Liquipedia, GL has won 4/9 tournaments, with Viper taking a third and Tatoh taking one as well. Meanwhile, aM' has only won 1/9 with Hera taking the grand melee. Liereyy hasn't won a single one past year. Yo has won 2/9, and then there's Vinchester taking one and FreakingAndy taking the DM cup. I wouldn't call these results heavy decline for GL at all! They might not be the one and only dominant team anymore, but they still have the best results overall of everyone.
If you include 2021 GL has won 8/17 1v1 S-tier tournaments, or 4/8 in 2021 alone (3 times Viper, 1 time Daut). In 2020, GL has won 3/6 (All Viper). This means that the rate of S-tier tournaments that GL has won (hard-carried by Viper) has also remained consistent at least from 2020 onwards!
I think everyone is just still kinda used to the Viper from 2012-2019, where he dominated much more than he has done since the release of DE, but Viper is still winning the most of everyone.

 

[Lokalo]

In general GL players are in heavy decline. Its probably a combination of age, skills, and motivation.
That said, Hera and Lierry are in top form and highly motivated.

That said, some of the draft choices and game play was far from perfect.

Anyway wp to AM boyz and Vinch.

Ofc, the more important question is when does Jordan's comeback end?

Liereyy and motivation doesn't sound that good in one sentence, well I might be wrong, he obviously wants to win and trains for big tournaments, but it seems for him is pretty much just a job and posibility to earn money, while others enjoy playing ladder and stuff way more. He is in a good shape that's for sure, although he had some lucky moments and so far Hera looks very dominant, even liereyy had hard time to handle him and would say 2:3 result doesnt show the reality of that set. Well we will see how next sets go as there often are some stomps in group stages, but then there is different story in playoffs. However it feels like hera got to next level and most importantly he seems very rounded player right now. And I would say became on of most fun players to watch, manages to do so much dmg with some scouts or light cav and overall would say has a bit distingtive game play where he keeps raiding and even if his opponent gets to imp much faster where it seems ohh he should die now and most players would be, but he somehow just keeps getting some dmg and booming and eventually winning. He just seems impossible to kill on open maps, even if being behind just somehow manages to pull it back.

As for draft, that might be because some civs/plays work out so differently against different players. I feel like for example Hera vs Viper arabia game where it was Mayans vs Tatars, if it was not Hera or Liereyy then Viper could have brought it back. I obviously don't know if they trained with each other, but I imagine GL boys mainly trained with GL. And GL boys are very good, but they usually have more boomy approach, while aM guys manage to put huge pressure and have good eco behind and wouldn't be surprised if Viper would pull it back there with tatars vs any other GL member or at least being very close to it, while Hera is just better at aggression and didn't give a chance there. But if you have success with a civ and strat in training you think it will work in tournament too.

But again, let's see, as Memb said, is not how it starts, it's how it will finish and never count out snake.

 

[StupidPieceOfSheep]

a ttl final viper would be a fair competition to todays hera, but it doesnt seem possible to match him or liereyy or any top 6 player with painful stomach and/or on painkillers. still rooting for snek, even more than ever, but hard to see him even in semifinal. on the other hand, if he beats vinch, then he faces villese, liereyy and hera, all who 3-0ed him so this must be huge motivation for him

 

[Maurice8]

Just a few weeks ago Viper wrecked Hera on T90 TL. I don't knows what changed so much.
At NAC4 he looks shaky and what's most surprising mostly strategy and decision-wise.
He doesn't seem slow or rusty in gameplay itself but bad civ picks and bad decisions most of the time make him lose.
I can see him lose to Vinch but at the same time stepping up and going to the semis or even finals seem also very likely, we'll see.

Hera is playing so far like a beast. If he keeps it that way he must win.

 

[The Pigdog]

Crazy that people expect Snek to strategise and play anywhere near full level despite him being in and out of the krankenhaus during the tournament.

Obviously means NAC4 won’t quite match up to previous iterations but it’s still been a fantastic watch.

 

[Dusk2Dawn]

Nili spiking up the food

 

[kalpit00]

Just a few weeks ago Viper wrecked Hera on T90 TL. I don't knows what changed so much.
At NAC4 he looks shaky and what's most surprising mostly strategy and decision-wise.
He doesn't seem slow or rusty in gameplay itself but bad civ picks and bad decisions most of the time make him lose.
I can see him lose to Vinch but at the same time stepping up and going to the semis or even finals seem also very likely, we'll see.

Hera is playing so far like a beast. If he keeps it that way he must win.

Well competing at the top takes a toll on you, its not a walk in the park. I remember Tatoh in RBW6 semis and finals played out of his mind, full focus literally every moment.

If you correlate this to Chess, it's like making moves (decisions and execution in aoe) at a higher depth -> for instance, if you have a scout-spear opening, in general from a hollistic view people would trade 3-4 scouts for a couple of vil kills while trying to macro and simultaneously defend & minimize damage in their own base. But at the highest level, they have a prepared strategy with certain timings in mind, so the notion of buying time until the next transition comes into play. Instead of killing those 2 vils for 3 scouts, keeping those scouts alive to buy time, force enemy into more spears, and then send maybe archers (if that was their plan) would make a completely different game. And then predicting opponent will make skirms to making more scouts (or in game theory terms, the counter to the counter and setting up the macro behind it).
Of course ^ this was just a hypothetical example, but just saying in tournaments, people prepare strategies that are this complex, and most often than not, their tournament games do not go as their practice games, so they have to adapt on the fly

What I am trying to say was that in LAN tourneys or major S-tiers like NAC, players will be on-point every second of the game. And that is exhausting, because the game is so complex, it's not as straightforward as autopiloting in a ladder game. (queuing vils and army, microing, building farms in between, that's all auto pilot)

So when one player is not able to perform up to that level (in this instance, Viper who had the stomach pain issue), they will get pulled apart. Not because they are playing "bad", but because they aren't able to keep up with the pace of the game most times. Even 10-15 seconds in an intense game can lead to your position declining massively, like one bad fight (in Viper-Liereyy case, liereyy is the god of feudal archer/skirm micro, it just snowballs from there - the kawasan game for ex). Then vs Hera, Viper had the Northern Isles game in the bag, he was so far ahead but Hera's monk mangonel push got just enough damage while viper's landing didnt (because hera was able to focus 100% in 3 spots, viper only 100% in 2, 50% in 1) eventually leading to Hera coming back on water and being able to come back. Kudos to Hera ofc, that game was so lost.

 

[Lokalo]

I see people saying about stomach, as I don't have twitter nor read it, when it started? As it seems people claiming Viper lost to Villese of it too, as I heard about it just yesterday, did he have it since start or people just as always come up with 20 excuses? I mean yesterday ofc it could have affected, he also didn't practice during the day as I understand, so that's totally understandable, but what about series with Villese?

 

[Davion]

Anyway wp to AM boyz and Vinch.

Is this the insider foreshadowing we all needed, please?
[AM] Vinch?