Is TheViper's dynasty over?

[Russeljones]

If you watch PoV recs its very likely from what he could see (4-5 barracks with flags on them), his first expectation from Villese was mass Halbs with CA behind so he thought about Champ/CA.
He went 150 Vils just for the sake of having an eco to do 2 expensive Gold armies but got kinda suprised by the HUssar switch of Villese. SO he went back to Camel + CA and got out of motion with that 180 tech/unit change imo. He just wasted some res worth like 3 camels on that 2 Inf techs he got, so borderline not even any impact on the game at all btw.
Villese also did a perfect job sniping Vipers way higher CA numbers at all times till he was in favor himself.

And CA+Camel is literally the only comp Saracen can make vs post imp Magyars spaming MagHUssar+CA ....

Thank you for taking the time to explain what, at the time, looked like odd decision making.

 

[eC_Gurke]

Hera is ahead of Yo right now for sure. He completely dominated his group stage including a win vs Villese and a 3-0 vs Yo.

Liereyy probably has some catching up to do but he'll be back to his peak soon I'm sure, RBW is not far away now..

Yo just won a BO21 against Hera a few weeks ago.

 

[eC_Gurke]

The gap between Viper/Hera/Lierrey and the rest was already getting closer and closer before AoE4.
Feels like the AoE4 period (and military for Lierrey) simply sped up the process. Single Elimination Stages seems to be as unpredictable as they never have been. Just look at the TTL Playoffs. Complete Madness.

Mr.Yo for me always feels like an outlier, because his performance seem to be so unpredictable. He looses against bruh in the group stage beats Tatoh 5-0 and wins Liereyy convincingly in the same weeks. He sometimes looks like a middle of the pack Top 10 player for some time and then goes on to win the next S-Tier Tournament.
Maybe its simply the fact that the non chinese community has no idea about anything that goes on in Yo's life. He must have the same up and downs in life that anyone has. E.g. when Lierreyy can barely play because of military or when idno Viper can barely practice because of his wrist, Hera takes time off to try LoL etc... We understand and excuse their difference in perfomance, so maybe its the same for Yo. We just dont know about it.

Conclusion: I wouldnt bet a penny atm on any S Tier Ro16 set atm. Hera, Lierey, Viper, Yo, Villese, Vinchester, Tatoh, Jordan, Daut, Nicov, MbL etc.. On any given day they take sets of each other. Some may still win more overall, but the fact that Viper loses to Villese should not be a big surprise at the moment.

 

[Lokalo]

I agree about levels being on quite same level, also often those "underdogs" prepare more and we have bit more different civs nowadays and I feel like quite a few games were won purely by better strats. Civs like Poles if you let them boom can be super dangerous and I think we still don't fully understand how good they are and actually quite versatile. It just feels like it's harder to play with more civs being good and also being more different. I might be wrong, but it feels like it was bit easier to predict before, like britons for ghost lake, vikings for islands etc, now its harder to predict or decide who has better draft.

 

[Lightysword]

Conclusion: I wouldnt bet a penny atm on any S Tier Ro16 set atm. Hera, Lierey, Viper, Yo, Villese, Vinchester, Tatoh, Jordan, Daut, Nicov, MbL etc.. On any given day they take sets of each other. Some may still win more overall, but the fact that Viper loses to Villese should not be a big surprise at the moment.

Couldn't agree more!
What a time it would be for a HiddenCup @T90Official

 

[malamadre]

Vinchester, Villese, Viper, Yo Top 4 then?

We could call Viper and Yo top 2, just that. Stop at 2. Maybe could make an argument for top 3 including Hera.

 

[Orisseus]

We could call Viper and Yo top 2, just that. Stop at 2. Maybe could make an argument for top 3 including Hera.

 

[Progeusz]

Let's just say ViViVi rule the aoe2 scene at the moment (not to be confused with Vivi)

 

[FolderOfDoom]

Well he himself said that he thought he will switch to halbs to counter Viper's camels, but then after game he also was saying like it's so much more likely to switch into CA, that it was poor decision to add barracks there and should have went more into camels. Not sure if it's a bad day or maybe still lacking a bit due aoe4, but Viper himself was unhappy about his performance and said he is fine to lose, but feel like played quite bad. Also losing like 600 wood+ and some food and gold while going to imp when resources is super tight is very impactful, could add many farms or just do more CA, also he didn't realise he had no partihian tactics. So yeah, quite a few mistakes, I think letting them to replay game from going to imp Viper would win it almost every single time.

Also anyone know if he had 15% movement speed UT for houfnice in bohemian vs turks game?

If you go up to imp with a fully boomed 130 Villager eco as wellas 190 total pop but your res are "super tight" you did something very wrong :lul:

The res he wasted were basically unimpactfull.

The problem was the time he wasted in which he could get more camels/upgrades and buildings for usefull units.

But all that again just showes missplay from Viper and not TROLLING.

 

[_Andrew]

I'll admit I don't watch as many games as I once did so my opinions re: top 4 are probably a bit outdated. It certainly seems like Vinchester/Villese/Jordan have closed the gap. A year ago I made the argument that Lierey/Hera had separated themselves and were pushing competitive Aoe2 to new heights but since that point it seems like they've kinda stalled out and struggled.

 

[siestes]

On mixed maps: Yo, Villese, Tatoh, Viper, Hera
On arabia: Liereyy, Viper, Vinchester, Hera
On EW: we will know soon enough

 

[ninja14]

On mixed maps: Yo, Villese, Tatoh, Viper, Hera
On arabia: Liereyy, Viper, Vinchester, Hera
On EW: we will know soon enough

Barring Tatoh agree

Who plays EW barring 20 pros who prepare for tournament.

 

[Lokalo]

What's with EW haters? I feel like most of EW haters didn't even try or tried 1-2 games, is different, but not that much that it would be that trash, idk, I understand people preffer RM, but EW is nice as a change sometimes.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

New DLCs are the best thing that happened to the game, they helped balance the pro scene while some of the top players are still stuck in their aoc bubble

 

[kalpit00]

Couldn't agree more!
What a time it would be for a HiddenCup @T90Official

This actually feels like such a great time, considering we have Vinch and Villese beasting S tier tourneys beating Viper and Hera. There's also Jordan who would be hard to guess considering he has made his way into the top 8, ACCM and Sitaux (albeit might be easy to guess due to micro) can be the dark horses and win other top 4-8 players. @T90Official def consider a HC in the near future, you want to milk this time before Aoe4 rises again and takes some hype away (which by the looks of the new patch looks likely)

 

[The Pigdog]

“looks likely”

 

[akku]

Why are we still calling Viper, Lierey, Hera and Yo the top 4 players?
Lierey last 1v1 S tier tournament was reb bull 4 more than 1 year ago, but that doesnt even count since is empire wars. Lierey last big 1v1 win was KOTD 3 like 2 years ago.
Hera last 1v1 S tier tournament won was Holy Cup (memeish tournament) 11 months ago. Before that HC4.
Viper won the Nomad tournament and KOTD 4.
Mr Yo has won: RMS Cup, The resurgence and The Open Classic. 3 Relevant mixed map tournaments. And this guy is called the 4th best player? He is a beast.

I only see Viper and Mr Yo relevant in the top player discussion. Lierey and Hera and good, super good actually. But why do we call them Top 4?

Viper dinasty stills looks over tho.

It is because of the consistency. They consistently get into the semis and finals. Their "average" performance has been at a very high level for like what, 3 years now?
That doesn't mean they will never lose set to those not in top 4, upsets can happen. Viper lost a set to Villese in one of the RBW quarterfinals before I think, then went onto win RBW5, KOTD and WWC. So......

Judging just by T90 league is flawed IMO, not only because the maps weren't all that figured out yet, but also especially because Lierry, Yo and Viper were in the same "bracket" in the RO12/RO8.

So, of the perceived "top 4", 2 of them got eliminated before semis because they had to face each other on the way.

I remember when Daut was being called "top 4" some months back, due to winning RBW and getting to finals in WWC. The same is happening with Vinchester now.
The thing is, these are very strong players, but lack the consistency. They are very much capable of taking sets from the top 4 through the unconventional plays and wack strategies. But they are very hit and miss players. You will also see them losing games and sets which they shouldn't. Very inconsistent.


AS for Viper's dinasty, IMO it ended when "top 4" became a thing, nobody would be surprised if he lost a set to anyone else in the top 4, even though people generally consider him the best player.

 

[Salawen]

plz like the post from @akku . he is speeking facts.

 

[ninja14]

What's with EW haters? I feel like most of EW haters didn't even try or tried 1-2 games, is different, but not that much that it would be that trash, idk, I understand people preffer RM, but EW is nice as a change sometimes.

Even pros don't play EW barring when it's gets close to Redbull tournaments and surely they have played more than 1-2 games.

It's just a weird game mode and I'm not sure why is this being pushed so hard. It's not like games are significantly shorter on EW, may be 5 mins less (game time)

 

[LmScar12]

Even pros don't play EW barring when it's gets close to Redbull tournaments and surely they have played more than 1-2 games.

It's just a weird game mode and I'm not sure why is this being pushed so hard. It's not like games are significantly shorter on EW, may be 5 mins less (game time)

I believe it's more about keeping action constant rather than shortening game length. I personally don't like it since it reduces strategy though.

 

[Freezing_Point]

Even pros don't play EW barring when it's gets close to Redbull tournaments and surely they have played more than 1-2 games.

It's just a weird game mode and I'm not sure why is this being pushed so hard. It's not like games are significantly shorter on EW, may be 5 mins less (game time)

I don't think it's really about game length, per se, but about making sure none of that time is Dark Age warmup.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

EW is the best thing that happened to Aoe2, you get an interesting gameplay from the get go ( cheers @Turkman Kappa ) and do not have to skip boring dark age.

 

[kalpit00]

EW is the best thing that happened to Aoe2, you get an interesting gameplay from the get go ( cheers @Turkman Kappa ) and do not have to skip boring dark age.

if Dark age is so boring why don't they just buff militia a little bit so they don't insta die to villagers or to quickwalls. the 2 militia drush might have become the meta not because militia are good 11, because those 2 units gives map control and time to react to enemy's feudal opening strat (can up 22 vils, like 30 seconds-1min behind normal feudal uptimes).

At the highest level, a drush is not even considered to kill vils, its just to enforce idle time which more often than not does not pay off (the 60f 20g x 3 is more expensive than the resources collected in the time they cause vils to go idle). Even in the avg best case, you might trade 3 militia for 1 maybe 2 vil. I still think the surprise factor has so much to do with the indirect damage you cause, rather than the strategy itself.

 

[ninja14]

EW is the best thing that happened to Aoe2, you get an interesting gameplay from the get go ( cheers @Turkman Kappa ) and do not have to skip boring dark age.

Death match has existed since forever

 

[TopperHarley]

I find it so weird whenever people try to disregard EW.

When Daut won Red Bull 3, it felt like one the greatest moments in Aoe2 history. I actually feel sorry for people who didn’t enjoy that, do they even have a soul?