AOE-II Is "stream-sniping" the apex of moral deviation?

[amazing_knight]

Well if you ask me, if somebody shows their card to thousands people voluntarily, and if I look, that is not cheating.
And it is not related to definition of cheating, it is more your subjective interpretation.

Cheating = When you get an advantage through other means which allows you to do/achieve something which otherwise you would not be able to. The definition of Cheating has nothing to do with the ease of its exercise.

If you were writing an exam and the answer to the questions was kept in a notebook beside you, and the professor asked you not to look but cannot monitor you - would it not be cheating if you looked. If someone kept his money outside their door, would it not be stealing for me to take it?

Similarly, if I stream snipe someone to get information which results in getting an unfair advantage over them, it's cheating by definition.

PS - You can argue that it's silly to keep your money outside the door and then cry about theft. But it's still stealing. Similarly, about live streaming. It's silly to livestream your tournament games with 0 delay, but that doesn't mean it's not cheating when opponent checks your stream to get information.

 

[vince]

oop my neighbor forgot to lock their door. guess that means I can walk in their house and take all their stuff, it's not stealing right?

 

[felix.feroc]

I already have my 2023 calendar mapped out and it’s currently not making the cut

Jeez, I don't even know what I am doing this afternoon.

 

[oozkan]

oop my neighbor forgot to lock their door. guess that means I can walk in their house and take all their stuff, it's not stealing right?

You know it is not same, it is still a private place, not similar to broadcasting your game in public website.

 

[oozkan]

You can argue that it's silly to keep your money outside the door and then cry about theft. But it's still stealing. Similarly, about live streaming. It's silly to livestream your tournament games with 0 delay, but that doesn't mean it's not cheating when opponent checks your stream to get information.

Your example would be correct, if you put your money outside, ask people to take it, then tell them they are thief.
By opening a public broadcasting channel in Twitch, you are already consenting someone who is visting Twitch to take a look at stream. That's the difference, consent is given. I am sure something similar is written on long acceptable use policy of Twitch where everyone just clicks next, I agree.

 

[Progeusz]

Consent to taking a look isn't the same as consent to abuse.

 

[oozkan]

Consent to taking a look isn't the same as consent to abuse.

Sure, I am not discussing moral issue here. My point is, if we had legal authority, stream sniping couldn't be a cheating case because information is publicly available.

 

[Umdeuter]

It's not about stealing information, it's about gaining and using information you shouldn't have in that competitive situation and it's 100% clear for everyone that you shouldn't have it and shouldn't use it.

Your argument applies to spec cheating as well.

That's a bit like someone committing murder with a knife and your argument is "well, but the knife was not stolen! the victim offered the knife for free use!" yeah but maybe don't kill anybody, you know

it's not relevant at all how he got the weapon but what he DID with it

 

[TopperHarley]

It's not about stealing information, it's about gaining and using information you shouldn't have in that competitive situation and it's 100% clear for everyone that you shouldn't have it and shouldn't use it.

Your argument applies to spec cheating as well.

That's a bit like someone committing murder with a knife and your argument is "well, but the knife was not stolen! the victim offered the knife for free use!" yeah but maybe don't kill anybody, you know

it's not relevant at all how he got the weapon but what he DID with it

You do not seem to understand the difference:
Killing somebody with s knife is illegal.

Beating an opponent in an online game supported by watching the publically available stream is not. It may be considered bad sportmanship but i don‘t think there are any rules against it (regarding ranked 1v1). Please show me the official rule in case i am wrong

 

[Springoftheking]

Stream sniping shouldn't be punished officially in ranked games. But is bad sportsmanship and any win achieved by it should be viewed worthless from moral perspective. It is good for game and community that players streams their games, it increases game's popularity. It also creates possibility to take advantage, which shouldn't be used.

 

[vince]

You know it is not same, it is still a private place, not similar to broadcasting your game in public website.

if that were the case then baseball teams should be allowed to have monitors of the public broadcast be displayed in their dugouts

if we want to look at everything from a letter of the law perspective, then that opens up so many more arguments on so many levels its ridiculous. but anyone with an ounce of principle knows that it falls under the category of cheating.

 

[vince]

Sure, I am not discussing moral issue here. My point is, if we had legal authority, stream sniping couldn't be a cheating case because information is publicly available.

um lol this isnt a legal issue at all. no one has a case to sue another on grounds of "stream sniping" 11

whether its cheating is one thing. whether or how it should be punished is a completely different topic.

 

[Fanjita]

You do not seem to understand the difference:
Killing somebody with s knife is illegal.

Beating an opponent in an online game supported by watching the publically available stream is not. It may be considered bad sportmanship but i don‘t think there are any rules against it (regarding ranked 1v1). Please show me the official rule in case i am wrong

"We play fair and respect each other.​

We play together and engage in respectful behavior even while competing. For example, saying “Good game” or “gg” after a competitive match. Engaging in behaviors to purposefully undermine matches goes against the spirit of the game. This can include, but is not limited to, repeatedly quitting a match early, sending excessive in-game taunts or tampering with the game. This does not necessarily apply to various in-game strategies, for example tower rushing, which are part of the competitive nature of our games."

Seems to be pretty clear to me. Inb4 stream sniping isn't undermining a match.

 

[paradox303]

Jeez, I don't even know what I am doing this afternoon.

Well, someone has to make a tournament calendar 11

 

[oozkan]

um lol this isnt a legal issue at all. no one has a case to sue another on grounds of "stream sniping" 11

whether its cheating is one thing. whether or how it should be punished is a completely different topic.

With tournaments 250K in line, it can be a legal issue easily.

 

[oozkan]

if that were the case then baseball teams should be allowed to have monitors of the public broadcast be displayed in their dugouts

if we want to look at everything from a letter of the law perspective, then that opens up so many more arguments on so many levels its ridiculous. but anyone with an ounce of principle knows that it falls under the category of cheating.

Well, baseball teams might not have it, but football/soccer teams does. I have no idea about baseball, not a sport that I watched.

 

[IYIyTh]

There's no need to be pedantic.

Sure, in the spirit of competition you shouldn't watch a streamer as you play them.

However, there is plenty to be said about complaining about your ass hanging out in the wind when you put it there.

 

[Umdeuter]

You do not seem to understand the difference:
Killing somebody with s knife is illegal.

Beating an opponent in an online game supported by watching the publically available stream is not. It may be considered bad sportmanship but i don‘t think there are any rules against it (regarding ranked 1v1). Please show me the official rule in case i am wrong

that wasn't the argument at all. the argument could have simply been "stream cheating is not illegal" then, but the argument was "the streamers offer their pov freely"

(and obviously, it is actually forbidden in any tournament with a proper rulebook and I don't think anyone is doing that assuming it would be normal and allowed)

 

[vince]

With tournaments 250K in line, it can be a legal issue easily.

considering its generally against the rules in tournament play (and was addressed as such in the first post of this thread that the whole conversation is based upon), that is completely irrelevant. we are talking about the ranked ladder, where there is no money at stake.

Well, baseball teams might not have it, but football/soccer teams does. I have no idea about baseball, not a sport that I watched.

referring in particular to the ability to cheat by stealing signs, the way the astros did recently. its not hard to see and figure out the signs when watching a TV broadcast, even the broadcasters often figure them out within an inning or two and know what pitches are coming. thats against the rules in baseball. why? because its blatant cheating.

There's no need to be pedantic.

Sure, in the spirit of competition you shouldn't watch a streamer as you play them.

However, there is plenty to be said about complaining about your ass hanging out in the wind when you put it there.

i do agree with this overall. stream sniping is definitely a trash thing to do. but at the same time, we know people do it left and right, and there are no consequences for doing so. therefore you shouldnt be too shocked when it happens. although in starks case, when we are talking about other pro-level players potentially doing it (especially when ladder rankings often play a part in qualification and seeding in tournaments), i completely understand the frustration.

 

[IYIyTh]

i do agree with this overall.

 

[felix.feroc]

Your example would be correct, if you put your money outside, ask people to take it, then tell them they are thief.

How about another metaphor?

Let's say you are throwing a party and issue a general invitation to the neighborhood. You have a beef with your neighbor, Bob, and tell him he can't come. He comes anyway and drinks your beer. Is he stealing?

I think you can issue a general invitation ("Hey, everyone come watch my stream!") but also have rules around it ("except anyone I happen to be playing at the moment").

 

[Liamsmalley7]

If watching a stream is fine because it's publicly available, why not just get a friend to hop into your game as a spectator and tell you everything that's going on? It's publicly available right? I think the "publicly available" argument is a bit of a slippery slope.

 

[felix.feroc]

If watching a stream is fine because it's publicly available, why not just get a friend to hop into your game as a spectator and tell you everything that's going on? It's publicly available right? I think the "publicly available" argument is a bit of a slippery slope.

I think the distinction, which is why I find the problem interesting, is how much due diligence a player has towards keeping his or her strategy secret.

I don't think anyone would deny that what you suggest, or that watching T90 stream the match, would be considered cheating. But, to go back to the poker example, if I lay my cards out on the table, can I then tell people not to look? If I am sharing my hand on social media in real time, can I claim due diligence for keeping my hand secret?

I think the answer is "no" to the first idea and "yes" to the second, and that stream sniping is cheating. But I don't think it is a foolish question.

 

[oozkan]

I don't think anyone would deny that what you suggest, or that watching T90 stream the match, would be considered cheating. But, to go back to the poker example, if I lay my cards out on the table, can I then tell people not to look? If I am sharing my hand on social media in real time, can I claim due diligence for keeping my hand secret?

I think the answer is "no" to the first idea and "yes" to the second, and that stream sniping is cheating. But I don't think it is a foolish question.

Good summary, thanks for keeping it at constructive level. Our only difference, I don't see much difference in two examples, for both case you gave consent in my opinion, so as I did with paradox, I agree to disagree at this point. Because I believe we understand each others point very well and just have different conclusions.
Anyway, whole discussion started when somebody pointed out this (it wasn't even my idea, I even wrote "I want to say no to this, but I can't") because I can't find a valid counter argument. As I said in the beginning, I am only looking from a legal point of view, I don't care about the moral issues of the person who looked at cards or stream.

If watching a stream is fine because it's publicly available, why not just get a friend to hop into your game as a spectator and tell you everything that's going on? It's publicly available right? I think the "publicly available" argument is a bit of a slippery slope.

You are just derailing discussion, @felix.feroc explained what I am trying to point out correctly. When you stream, you give consent for others to reach your content, you voluntarily make an information belongs to you public. Asking a thridy party to jump in and help is not even close to my point.

 

[Liamsmalley7]

You are just derailing discussion, @felix.feroc explained what I am trying to point out correctly. When you stream, you give consent for others to reach your content, you voluntarily make an information belongs to you public. Asking a thridy party to jump in and help is not even close to my point.

You give tacit consent for others to view your content every time you play a ranked game. They are all open to viewership from anybody. I remember a similar discussion being raised when people were getting mad at T90 for getting loads of views off of low ELO players.