AOE-II Is "stream-sniping" the apex of moral deviation?

[Rayne]

Was Badboy the guy who got 2400 out of nowhere and went down few hundred points? Or am I mistaking him for someone else? Just curious since I was recalling some very old things here.

 

[Influenza]

Was Badboy the guy who got 2400 out of nowhere and went down few hundred points? Or am I mistaking him for someone else? Just curious since I was recalling some very old things here.

he indeed quickly reach 2400 with the aid of tatars that had been recently buffed along with blatant stream cheating vs any streamer

 

[Rayne]

he indeed quickly reach 2400 with the aid of tatars that had been recently buffed along with blatant stream cheating vs any streamer

Ah yeah forgot about the whole Tartars thing.

I wasn’t sure if it was the same as some of the suspicious people of the past like Cain. Shades’ post made me remember most of them compared to legit rating rises like Viper (went from 2100 to 2400 in I believe 6-8 months in 2010, prob all-time record) for some reason. I usually just think account boosting though since it’s been a thing in the past with some tops.

 

[zatekusen]

Not sure what Badboy did to @Influenza for him to hold a grudge after all those years.

And the dishonesty with stating "blatant stream cheating" as if it is a fact, while I have presented multiple clips which happened before the match he got accused, showing he's alt-tabbing to place bets. I was in that betting group as well, and it was disbanded shortly after Badboy posting the balance sheet here.

There should be some consequences for people that consistently throwing false accusation around.

 

[Influenza]

Not sure what Badboy did to @Influenza for him to hold a grudge after all those years.

And the dishonesty with stating "blatant stream cheating" as if it is a fact, while I have presented multiple clips which happened before the match he got accused, showing he's alt-tabbing to place bets. I was in that betting group as well, and it was disbanded shortly after Badboy posting the balance sheet here.

There should be some consequences for people that consistently throwing false accusation around.

this is a complete lie and you know it. those clips were from after he was accused, not before

 

[zatekusen]

this is a complete lie and you know it. those clips were from after he was accused, not before

My bad, rechecked that thread and I was mistaken.

I think there is another way to prove it - if we can get the exact date and time of when this clip happened https://clips.twitch.tv/SpinelessCrypticSrirachaDBstyle , I can go back into the betting group chat and find his message there, since I'm pretty sure he was alt tabbing to chat in that group. Facebook message has the exact timestamp on it.

 

[siestes]

Viper (went from 2100 to 2400 in I believe 6-8 months in 2010, prob all-time record)

obvious stream sniping there

 

[Progeusz]

obvious stream sniping there

Clearly boosted by DauT.

 

[FreshRye]

no disrespect, but is it normal to be while playing the person, also on his twitch chat ?i

no disrespect, but is it normal for players like you to set a 10 min delay in tournaments for preventing your opponent cheating, and your opponent got some reputation?

 

[F1Re__]

no disrespect, but is it normal for players like you to set a 10 min delay in tournaments for preventing your opponent cheating, and your opponent got some reputation?

i never did that so idk, in fact i did 4 mins or something in one game and right after we changed back to 2. tbh if was up to me i wouldnt care of setting 10 mins. if you not doing something wrong why 10 mins would matter right ?

 

[HongeyKong]

Imo backseating / coaching in ladder games is fine as long as they dont get extra info outside of the players POV, I mean there are **** ton of 3k pros giving streamers tips in twitch chat with very little delay anyway. Its unacceptable in tourneys tho, at least for now.

 

[kalpit00]

Imo backseating / coaching in ladder games is fine as long as they dont get extra info outside of the players POV, I mean there are **** ton of 3k pros giving streamers tips in twitch chat with very little delay anyway. Its unacceptable in tourneys tho, at least for now.

in most cases the streamer already has thought about those unit choices anyways. The only one which hurts is when someone in chat reminds the streamer of a missing crucial upgrade that the streamer thought they already researched (like fletching or double bit axe or something like that). That could potentially decide the outcome of the ongoing fights, although this isn't as frowned upon as someone in chat who goes to the opponents stream and gives information to a streamer that his opponent is docking a specific pond or is fast imping or has a hole in the wall somewhere, etc. That I agree is really bad

 

[IYIyTh]

in most cases the streamer already has thought about those unit choices anyways. The only one which hurts is when someone in chat reminds the streamer of a missing crucial upgrade that the streamer thought they already researched (like fletching or double bit axe or something like that). That could potentially decide the outcome of the ongoing fights, although this isn't as frowned upon as someone in chat who goes to the opponents stream and gives information to a streamer that his opponent is docking a specific pond or is fast imping or has a hole in the wall somewhere, etc. That I agree is really bad

"Don't forget about the idle vil,"
"Don't forget about dba."
"You have a hole."

Where does it end?

 

[FreshRye]

i never did that so idk, in fact i did 4 mins or something in one game and right after we changed back to 2. tbh if was up to me i wouldnt care of setting 10 mins. if you not doing something wrong why 10 mins would matter right ?

it matters for the casters

 

[lecracheursagacite]

"Don't forget about the idle vil,"
"Don't forget about dba."
"You have a hole."

Where does it end?

Everyone says it's harder to play on-stream than off so is this not just negating that disadvantage?

 

[JoshuaR]

The voice chat stuff being separate... Twitch definitely leaves your name in the viewer list for a looong time even after you've left a stream.

I've watched streams, gotten picked for a community game or viewer match, closed the stream, and come back to watch the vod. The vod chat, from before I'm back in the stream, will often show commentary directed to my username. (e.g. a gg or whatnot, sometimes followed by a "Oh he's in the stream already stream sniping!" type of comment)

SongSong specifically is active in twitch. Between games he's sometimes joining other streamers' channels, chatting, and seemingly hopping off. It's no surprise that he might have been in st4rk's channel before the match.

Slam is constantly re-queuing or changing from a team queue to a 1v1 when he realizes ACCM or Zuppi or someone has just come online. Or you'll hear the disappointment in his voice (and chair) when he comments that "so and so is done for the night."

It's a normal thing to join other aoe2 streams between games. It's a normal thing for the name to remain in the chat list even when a person has left the channel. It's also a normal thing to just pause or mute a channel and not leave at all. None o these things constitute stream cheating.

 

[Russeljones]

Going back to the Hans Niemann reference, I believe it is really hard to definitively nail someone for stream cheating based on their mere presence in chat. Yes, their being in the stream is a prerequisite for stream-sniping, but it takes some leap of faith to say that that condition alone is sufficient proof. The cameras in tournaments keep everyone honest. Let's hope for more such in the future.

 

[tia]

The vietnamese players surely are getting off very easily with their offences.
Denying songsong from RBW Q2 is definetly a step in a good direction, but it still feels like a one-off decision by chrazini fueled by reports from significant players, and not some collective realisation of the situation. Whether its an attempt at not appearing rascist or some child overprotective approach (since they all kinda look 15 yo), i do not know.

Songsong is a confirmed thief and very shady dude at this point, badboy and mr. bean confirmed spec cheaters, all still at large. The others, i have no evidence to say anthing bad. Giving them the benefit of the doubt (referring to up commentors) is kinda silly and naive at best.

A few years back, when things were technically "more" leniant, I can remember @VODKA_L_ getting absolutely shitstormed for receiving an insignificant "aiding" message (singular) from darkdevil during a tournament game. Now apparently its ok for someone to stream their tournament games and talk to his friends because it's part of the culture? This is absolutely a double standard and a farce by all means (comments below). ACCM, who is a well established top contender with MASSIVE international tournament experience, is a part of this vietnameses community. The fact ACCM engages with them on voice/ in tournaments as a team, while maintaining this shield over them of constant unawarness of rule violating, is hypocritical at best.

I think hanging out in a huge voice call is very common in the Vietnamese community and because of that, unless we get the vods translated, there is not that much we can prove in terms

With the pandemic, people has been moving to Discord as a virtual internet-cafe, bring along their internet-cafes culture. High-level players in the community often stream their matches, whether it's a private lobby, ladder or tournament, for others to watch. Again it's mostly an honor system when the fans know to stay silent when it matters.

2. Currently, the economy has developed, and it is not too difficult for a person to buy themselves a computer to play games at home, because the number of AOE2 Vietnam players is old so they like to stream their pov in discord and interact with everyone there.
3. After talking to everyone in the Discord group, they told me that they didn't know and didn't think that streaming discord while playing was not allowed.

While not all @100Dragonstar posted screenshots are reasonable proof, for instance Tiequoy appears to be voice/sound muted while playing ( https://i.imgur.com/MokE8I0.png ),
whereas mr. bean and songsong have everything activated
( https://imgur.com/LLWJVpO ).
Receiving aid in-between games is ok. U can definetly consult people about strategy or pick choices before or after the game. U definetly should not do that during the game which constitutes cheating.


Summing up, I would expect at least songsong to receive at least some suspension from tournaments. If its 6 months, a year, it's not for me to decide. Lack of any collective significant retribution for his actions which at this point include stealing, scamming, cheating, ladder manipulation etc. is a big middle finger to people looking for just and honest competition.
Smaller tournament hosts and admins definetly look for guidance in such matters from the established influencial ones (E.g. t90, nili, memb, Huehuecoyotl22, chrazini, robo), whom if they wished can just either on their own or collectivly decide to suspend songsong from their tournaments for a certain period, and i'm sure the others would follow.



(my post has nothing to do with stark post)

 

[Memeluke]

I remember when a simple undetectable self-admitted "make siege rams!" caused a shitstorm

 

[Black Adder]

The problem is this community for whatever obscure reason (well, the reason is certain interested parties promoting this point of view for personal, profitable reasons, because it's easier than to deal with reality) coasting on the waves of "nothing is wrong and never can be, everyone is cool and truthful and never would do anything wrong," from players to tournament hosts, admins, from streamers to regular community participants, to Microsoft. Simply everyone's nice and awesome.

Well, no, never has been, never will be.

There always were cheaters in the game, there always were people trying to cheat in ladder games, actively cheating in tournaments, ranging from smurfing, account sharing, stream sniping to classic hard on technical cheats. Why does anyone think suddenly all of this disappeared, somehow coincidentally with DE, is completely beyond me, but I guess strong voices have strong effects on people's perception. But it certainly didn't go anywhere, you even have regular cases publicised, yet people, under the watchful and just guidance, just generally stopped caring. Were conditioned to stop caring. Were conditioned not to expect it. To forget that it was even an option. Also because there are, after the switch from Voobly to DE, limited ways to actually tackle many of these things. Limited anti-cheat, limited willingness to even deal with cheats and cheaters (remember how long it always takes), limited ways to even have an opportunity to look into these things.

People, and tournament hosts, just simply work with the "believe" all is supposed to be fine, and so it is. (I don't doubt some are aware, but just don't have a way to address it.)

If people cheated in non-money tournaments, in tournaments with by now minuscule prize pools, they cheat even in just ladder games, what makes anyone, anyone in the whole wide world think they wouldn't for thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands flying around seemingly endlessly. When for many parts of the world just the entry prizes in a few hundred dollars are really a lot of money, and the spread being quite richer than in the past. When no one seems to care. And barely anyone can do anything about it.

That SongSong got slapped just showcases you need to be really obvious and in-the-face for someone to take notice (which interestingly alludes to Bee's case in AoEIV), but how many are there who just coast under the radar because they're careful, or because they're not reaching for the top levels, but for the bare minimum.

 

[_Donatello_]

^idk were you got this everything is fine in this community from, like every threads on this forum got some kinda drama in them.

And yea cheating is not new, so we should just allow it or let it happend without caring? wtf is that logic

 

[zatekusen]

The vietnamese players surely are getting off very easily with their offences.
Denying songsong from RBW Q2 is definetly a step in a good direction, but it still feels like a one-off decision by chrazini fueled by reports from significant players, and not some collective realisation of the situation. Whether its an attempt at not appearing rascist or some child overprotective approach (since they all kinda look 15 yo), i do not know.

Songsong is a confirmed thief and very shady dude at this point, badboy and mr. bean confirmed spec cheaters, all still at large. The others, i have no evidence to say anthing bad. Giving them the benefit of the doubt (referring to up commentors) is kinda silly and naive at best.

A few years back, when things were technically "more" leniant, I can remember @VODKA_L_ getting absolutely shitstormed for receiving an insignificant "aiding" message (singular) from darkdevil during a tournament game. Now apparently its ok for someone to stream their tournament games and talk to his friends because it's part of the culture? This is absolutely a double standard and a farce by all means (comments below). ACCM, who is a well established top contender with MASSIVE international tournament experience, is a part of this vietnameses community. The fact ACCM engages with them on voice/ in tournaments as a team, while maintaining this shield over them of constant unawarness of rule violating, is hypocritical at best.





While not all @100Dragonstar posted screenshots are reasonable proof, for instance Tiequoy appears to be voice/sound muted while playing ( https://i.imgur.com/MokE8I0.png ),
whereas mr. bean and songsong have everything activated
( https://imgur.com/LLWJVpO ).
Receiving aid in-between games is ok. U can definetly consult people about strategy or pick choices before or after the game. U definetly should not do that during the game which constitutes cheating.


Summing up, I would expect at least songsong to receive at least some suspension from tournaments. If its 6 months, a year, it's not for me to decide. Lack of any collective significant retribution for his actions which at this point include stealing, scamming, cheating, ladder manipulation etc. is a big middle finger to people looking for just and honest competition.
Smaller tournament hosts and admins definetly look for guidance in such matters from the established influencial ones (E.g. t90, nili, memb, Huehuecoyotl22, chrazini, robo), whom if they wished can just either on their own or collectivly decide to suspend songsong from their tournaments for a certain period, and i'm sure the others would follow.



(my post has nothing to do with stark post)

First, ACCM is never in that discord when he's playing in tournament. I don't think he's ever streamed on Twitch while playing in tournament as well (unless the organizer wants him to)

Second, there is no intention to cheat in that group - it's public with hundreds of members and frequently get live streamed to YouTube.

If someone wants to cheat they do it in private server. Besides requiring camera/voice like in BOA (which Badboy and SongSong showed no difference in level), how do you controll it?

Third, please stop saying that Badboy is a confirmed spec cheater. This will be my last time talking about this. I don't know for sure about Mr.Bean or SS, but I was in that betting group that caused the incident for BB. He would try to to catch players of similar skill then alt-tab to watch people giving the odds, and bet for himself if the odds is good (all info was given in the old thread). Do you think people in the community are naive enough to let him cheat their money?

BB is a respected figure in the community, I don't know him personally, but from the interaction in the discord server he is a very shy and honest guy. He regularly plays team game with everyone in the servers, no matter the level, and give good guidance/feedback (including myself a 1k3 pleb). With no money involved.

 

[F1Re__]

11

 

[Rayne]

Simply everyone's nice and awesome.

Well, no, never has been, never will be.

Dunno about other communities a whole lot, but I find this one much better than the Dark Souls or the chess community. Or maybe it’s just me having bad luck (or something wrong with me?).


I don’t completely know how true “there were always cheaters in ladder games” is btw, and I’ve been around since late 2005/2006 (excluding gamespy in 2004). Maybe depends what kind of cheating we’re taking about. I only ever ran into two cheaters personally (was sadly friends with both too), but there were a total of only 3 cheaters ever around/past 2k for instance, excluding Zharoon with DE last year or two years ago (speaking of someone that has the skill). The very first was VNS_NoMoneyNoLove (caught by Dreams or Chris, forgot who, maphacker) in 2006 who was over 22+, Asad (the famous Halen ban incident on Gamepark, gaia/delete hacking/prob map hacking too) who was 1900-2k, then of course Ertug who requires no info. I don’t know of anything else before 2006 in say Zone, someone like Funito would know probably who’s been around long before me. Never ran into any cheaters before getting 2k, which makes me wonder if they’re a myth. Unless we’re talking about spec cheaters, which I wouldn’t know much. But only ever been a few of those as well past 2k? They’ve been talked about on here.

For tourney smurfs/cheating and such, you’re right about that. That’s what has been much more rampant. Probably the most amusing is RoR and the two WCL incidents. Very humorous “anonymous” screenshots of the private forums to prove smurfing which even made the clan founder laugh hard.

 

[HongeyKong]

Btw how many elo is a 3:30 delayed spec info worth in your opinion?