AOE-II Is booming and camping, too strong in 1v1-AoE2?

Jun 27, 2018
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#1
My opinion is yes. Its too easy and too little risk, to go for the booming aproach.

Not on all maps though. Maps like goldrush offer other objectives, and always seems to produce good games.
I feel like the debate about walls, comes from this problem. Its to difficult to punish a boomer. But walls is not the only thing to consider here. Another aproach could be, to move essential resources away from the main TC area, like goldrush.
I just remembered those annoying hilly maps, where its difficult to find good TC spots, could these maps be considered having an inbuilt small booming nerf? Personally I wouldnt mind seeing TC´s costing 200 stone, just to slow down the booms. But this is just my personal noob opinions. Whats your thoughts on this?


I also have another question. Why is 1 TC aggression such a common strategy on Arena? I like to see it, because its ballsy, but why on Arena and not Arabia?
 

UnknownRayne

Active Member
Jul 6, 2010
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#2
I also have another question. Why is 1 TC aggression such a common strategy on Arena? I like to see it, because its ballsy, but why on Arena and not Arabia?
Someone else can answer Arena for you, but I can answer the Arabia side.

As I am sure you know it somewhere, it has its risks. Often very high. I think its a bit more common than you think too.

You have to evaluate when a 1 tc all-in idea can work, you don't just do it because you feel like it.

From my experience and what I believe is how other high rated players would think as well, this is what I think.

Quite simply, it must be evaluated on weaknesses/vulnerability of your opponent. It depends on the civ and situation as well.

If its some civ that results in xbow wars in Castle Age, then your only real option here is xbow + mangonel push with 1 tc (you could do this with more than 1 tc which makes more sense). This is risky because you can't really take your eyes off of your push often (wrong moment and maybe enemy gets a lucky mang shot). But, things like hills and placement of resources are a key here and what determine such all-out action with these types of ideas. That's one example.

Another case (and perhaps an old one), can be from some kind of forward and knights happen. I can't get into this one too much. Hills and gold placement play in here though.

Also, there are some other factors you consider before trying it. Such as you killed more of your enemy's army in Feudal Age (finishing off a weakened foe), hills and resource placements (already mentioned), Castle Age times (basically who got there first might be able to consider it; would be evaluated based on hills for sure), your army and civs (already mentioned too), map openness (nearly forgot this one), even your style/past experiences and so on. Micro, macro, and speed should play a huge role here too (mostly so it doesn't go sour for you quickly).

And last, one very crucial thing is how good the defender is. Mostly speaking from my experience and who I have played (and done it to), this is where its important. If someone understands their most vulnerable areas on the map and can foresee numerous dangerous situations (your 1 tc push here) and knows what to do about it, this is quite bad for you. It may be only best to do it if your opponent has made some errors/evaluated the factors I have mentioned well. Otherwise, 1 tc push vs maybe 3 tcs isn't fun at all.


Tl; dr;

The agressor should be considering numerous factors that will optimize a 1 tc push. Otherwise you'll die badly against a good defender who understands things and gets a huge edge from economy if he stops you in your tracks.

Don't know how complicated Arena can get as I never played it, but that's my experiences on Arabia and why its not something you try to do often and expect success.
 

NorwayMoonspring

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#3
Maybe Viper can do a naked FC into a boom vs a 1800, but in close match ups just booming is terrible.
1 tc agression on arena is common because you cant do much before castle age. If you are playing very agressive on arabia you might click up with 40 vills which means adding tcs and keeping production running is easy. On arena with 27 vills you cant run 2 monastries, a siege workshop and 3 tcs. So one tc agression is common.
 

CanadaNuclearPasta

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#4
I can't speak for all maps, but Arabia 1v1 at the very least no, it's not too strong. At all.

For starters to attempt a boom or camp you're having to secure what is already the most open map in the game. And you're trying to do it before your opponent comes forward to pressure you. You need Viper level map hax to get a good enough map to do this, or hope your opponent has a bad dark age and doesn't come forward with military before you get the last piece of wall down.

More importantly however, a boomer or a camper gives up important map control. You're more likely to see a 1 TC aggressor win a game over a boomer simply because the boomer ends up starved of space and resources. Map control is a deciding victory in getting a win or a lose, and when you boom or camp you give all of that control up.

If you're fighting a boomer you need to pressure him. Booming means he'll be going full eco, and forcing him to make military will put a strain on his resources. If you're fighting a camper take map control. Scout the map, wall up resources close to him, even build a forward castle on his base.
 

United KingdomFall

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#5
In general, if you make more eco you don't have to do anything. You're putting the other guy in the spot where he has to figure out how to re-equalize the game.

I don't think that's "OP" as such, it's just a dynamic.
 

Ireland_Melkor

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
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#6
It happens on arena because you can't check your eco and suddenly see that all your vils are dead to one stray kt that you didn't notice for the last 3 minutes while doing intense micro elsewhere.
 
Likes: Tocaraca
Aug 21, 2014
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#7
I think (beleive) the issue arises when the opponent is taken aback by boom/wall/fc etc.
If you commit army in feudal, which you typically do with 20-22 up and if you opponent is walled, then you are scewed.
Ability to know what you opponent is upto is critical, hence keeping sc alive is important.
Using palisade scanning to see how many vills he has on gold/stone gives you a indication.

I have seen Tatoh wall back the opponent to ensure hyey dont escape out so easily..
in the end you need yo make right counter to survive and win..
 
Feb 19, 2017
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#8
In Arena, 1TC is only really common VS non arena players. It seems to work more often than it should I assume because it's a stage and position in the game that arabia players haven't been hard practising every game. But VS other arena players unless its pretty extreme circumstances like turks/spain vs a bad civ it's generally safer to just boom with the lower success rate of 1TC pushes these days. I think boom is too favoured now, or at the very least turtling to lategame.

On arabia, I see a lot of 1TC pushes such as huns or slavs just slamming on the knights for example in castle age after a successful feudal age. Although they have the added role in arabia of securing locations.
 
Jun 27, 2018
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#9
I´m not gonna hide, that I do compare AoE2 and Starcraft1 alot, because its the 2 best RTS´ I know of. In SC1 I do have a feeling, that this balance between risk and expanding, is better balanced, more fair. Its properly because of lots of factors, but I do feel like, there was a bigger emphasis on map-control in SC1, and also AoE2-workers are so damn good. They can always find something usefull to chop or harvest.

Funny enough, I do feel like teamgames in AoE2 is fine where it is. Where as, in SC1 teamgames have a shallow meta. The reason is, in SC1 the defensive capabilities are low, so any 2v1 situation is fatal. It dosent take long in that game, to be completly cleaned up, once breached. This led to the shallow meta, that players in say 2v2´s had no choice, than produce tier-1 military non-stop, no expansions and no tech development. Who ever team, that lost the first clash of armies, whould normally just gg out.

SC1 was considered a damn hard game, but I strongly believe AoE2 is significantly harder. So AoE2 should proberly not be pushed in a direction, that makes it even harder. I suspect, its possible to make maps, that makes camping impossible, but it could be that, only pros could handle playing that stuff.
 

ArgentinaImRiver

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#12
in my opinion, in arabia it's worse for you to stay full defensive all games, than go full agressive all games. It's a map that very commonly has some big vulnerability . Be it two stones in a same spot, or a really bad gold, or that shit wood with more water than trees. If you don't try and take advantage of those points, your opponent probably will, and since everyone 18x level knows the Build orders, it's there where you can take an advantage.
Please forgive my english <3
 
Jun 27, 2018
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#13
in my opinion, in arabia it's worse for you to stay full defensive all games, than go full agressive all games. <3
Agression did work out better for me, but I was terrible, and so was my opponents. It just seems totally different on the good player level. But I could be wrong on the entire subject ofc. Still nice to hear, what better players think. GG

Edit: To be honest, I was´nt terrible terrible, Apm and sense of aggression was ok´ish, just couldnt get the muscle memory down, this game is too hard man.
 
Last edited:
Mar 13, 2018
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#14
Walling/camping wouldn't be as viable without the huge advantage of controlling a hill near your base. You also pointed out the inherent randomness of whether there are good TC spots in hilly maps. Best way to reduce both problems is to reduce the number of hills near spawn in certain maps like Arabia (but keep them in the rest of the map).
 
Feb 19, 2017
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#16
We just stopped complaining about all in tower rushes and now booming is op?
Because they're being fixed, not are currently fixed. Nobody in particular is saying it's OP in arabia. In particular it's nerfing general tower/guard tower defense in arena VS smush/mangonels so, maybe that actually worsens arena's easy win by booming.
 

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