Is AoE2 DE Dynastie over?

[Tocaraca]

Apparently Viper and Nili are going to be focusing on AoE4 after KotD4. T90's content is split between AoE2 and AoE4. The Twitch scene is dead (Liereyy and MbL don't stream very often, and players like Survivalist and Chris aren't top 10 grinders, as legendary as they are). AoE2 is dead.

 

[covaccino99]

If/when they come back i hope this will be remembered

 

[_Andrew]

Hera should give up his KOTD spot to someone motivated to play if he feels that way. I'm sure there's plenty of really good players who would express excitement at the chance to play in an event as big as KOTD.

 

[TheCapybara]

The vitriol towards players enjoying AoE4 is pretty sickening. By all means, be upset about your favourite streamers/players not playing your favourite game; by all means, let's think of the potential long-term impact and consider how we manage that as a community; what is awful is this bitterness and nastiness towards people who are enjoying a new, much-hyped game in their field.

The game is only two weeks old. Of course they're motivated and excited to play it and make content on it. It's still a shiny new toy. There are all sorts of possibilities and unknowns about its future, so it makes sense that they'd want to stay on top of it and keep their options open with it, whether because it's fun for them or through career prospects.

Suggesting they should be shunned by the community, dropped from tournaments, talking about them like they're traitors - it's unfair, unjustified, and doesn't serve anyone any benefit. If you don't want to watch them and support them because of some feeling of wrong-doing, fine. Don't talk down to them and belittle them for their choice, though.

 

[_Andrew]

The vitriol towards players enjoying AoE4 is pretty sickening. By all means, be upset about your favourite streamers/players not playing your favourite game; by all means, let's think of the potential long-term impact and consider how we manage that as a community; what is awful is this bitterness and nastiness towards people who are enjoying a new, much-hyped game in their field.

The game is only two weeks old. Of course they're motivated and excited to play it and make content on it. It's still a shiny new toy. There are all sorts of possibilities and unknowns about its future, so it makes sense that they'd want to stay on top of it and keep their options open with it, whether because it's fun for them or through career prospects.

Suggesting they should be shunned by the community, dropped from tournaments, talking about them like they're traitors - it's unfair, unjustified, and doesn't serve anyone any benefit. If you don't want to watch them and support them because of some feeling of wrong-doing, fine. Don't talk down to them and belittle them for their choice, though.

Think you're confusing what people are upset about. It's completely fine to go and enjoy a new game... by all means, play whatever game you want.

But to take potshots at KOTD or AoE2 on your way out the door (Nili and Hera's comments in particular) or to act dismissively towards an event that you know people like Memb and many others have invested countless hours of time and energy into is just wrong, IMO.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

Relax guys, streamers were also playing cyberbug2077 for few days after the release

 

[TheCapybara]

Think you're confusing what people are upset about. It's completely fine to go and enjoy a new game... by all means, play whatever game you want.

But to take potshots at KOTD or AoE2 on your way out the door (Nili and Hera's comments in particular) or to act dismissively towards an event that you know people like Memb and many others have invested countless hours of time and energy into is just wrong, IMO.

I really don't see how what Hera's said is a potshot. He's a player in KotD4, he'll play and doubtless provide us with some good quality gameplay as he always does. He's also said that he's more motivated by a new game at the moment and that he's proud of his achievements in AoE2 so far. I fail to see the horrific insult. Players in all sports go through phases of waning motivation. Some are more vocal about it than others. That doesn't make it an insult to organisers of their leagues/tournaments.

It's really not justifiable for people to be insulting the players because they're currently more interested in a game which was released two weeks ago. Nobody's come out and said KotD4 is a terrible tournament, or that they intend to throw in it so they can return asap to AoE4. They've just said their current driver is progressing in AoE4, which seems pretty understandable.

 

[Giuseppe551]

Squeaker do you really not see why people are upset over this? A top 3 aoe2 player just all but said he has zero excitement for the game. Our "Tournament Coordinator" is so burned out on aoe2 that he can't get excited for KOTD round 1 matchups like Vinchester vs Max or Bact vs Slam (doesn't bode well for him sending funds to future aoe2 tournaments, does it?) No one has any idea what the near term future holds for either competitive aoe2 or aoe4. The ladder is completely dead (Liereyy is the most active streaming player so that alone tells you something has gone terribly wrong here). If you don't see the problem you're blind.

 

[Andre_2i]

People are upset about the fact that they can't find a top aoe2 player streaming some aoe2 games nowadays, which is something that they've been used to for some time, and that it also looks like that might not change at least not any time soon.

The second part is that since there's no top competitive ranked games going on on the ladder, no high-viewer streams, the few top players who remain on aoe2 will get even longer queues or unbalanced games so you won't even be able to spec top-level games too often, and so many players will lose interest in the game since their favorite players moved on, sponsors will lose interest, and the game will generally get into a dark age again. That's what all the aoe4 hate is about, is that it's indirectly killing aoe2 from top down though not even necessarily being a better game.

 

[TheCapybara]

Squeaker do you really not see why people are upset over this? A top 3 aoe2 player just all but said he has zero excitement for the game. Our "Tournament Coordinator" is so burned out on aoe2 that he can't get excited for KOTD round 1 matchups like Vinchester vs Max or Bact vs Slam (doesn't bode well for him sending funds to future aoe2 tournaments, does it?) No one has any idea what the near term future holds for either competitive aoe2 or aoe4. The ladder is completely dead (Liereyy is the most active streaming player so that alone tells you something has gone terribly wrong here). If you don't see the problem you're blind.

I absolutely appreciate why people are upset, as I said in my original comment. I, too, have some concerns about the future of top-level AoE2 given everything which has happened recently. None of that justifies people going after the players and streamers, calling for them to lose their spots in the tournament etc. It's such an unreasonable demand to expect players to be hyped and excited for every single tournament and game they play in, especially when something else has come along to motivate them.

People are upset about the fact that they can't find a top aoe2 player streaming some aoe2 games nowadays, which is something that they've been used to for some time, and that it also looks like that might not change at least not any time soon.

The second part is that since there's no top competitive ranked games going on on the ladder, no high-viewer streams, the few top players who remain on aoe2 will get even longer queues or unbalanced games so you won't even be able to spec top-level games too often, and so many players will lose interest in the game since their favorite players moved on, sponsors will lose interest, and the game will generally get into a dark age again. That's what all the aoe4 hate is about, is that it's indirectly killing aoe2 from top down though not even necessarily being a better game.

That is utterly understandable, and I share in the sadness at not being able to see more high-level AoE2 right now. This lull was always going to happen with AoE4, though, regardless of how good the game was: it's been hyped for a long time, it's part of the same franchise, it's a new RTS with big money being pumped in (therefore at least some form of competitive scene, even if it's short-lived). It's so early in the life of AoE4, though, that talk of it killing AoE2 seems premature, and people constantly criticising players and streamers for playing a brand new game that they enjoy is not in the slightest bit beneficial.

 

[Sticky Ice Cream]

snip

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, but as a viewer I am looking forward to AoE II shaving off some of the top-top players so that streamers who stay with AoE II might see a larger variety of strategies at lower ELO brackets that rarely, if ever, work at the pinnacle of the ladder.

 

[Black Adder]

Suggesting they should be shunned by the community, dropped from tournaments, talking about them like they're traitors - it's unfair, unjustified, and doesn't serve anyone any benefit. If you don't want to watch them and support them because of some feeling of wrong-doing, fine. Don't talk down to them and belittle them for their choice, though.

I agree it's often overreaction, but on the other hand, I cannot really feel sorry for them too much. Why? Because this same behaviour, this fanboyism and blindness is exactly how they got where they are, how they got their advantages above others and special treatment, and how they are making the money they are. They enjoyed the fun part of it making them feel famous and wanted, needed, and making them tons of money to the fullest. Now comes the inevitable other part. Not much tasty, is it? But, well, you cannot have one without the other. That's the reality of being a public figure making money off being a public figure. And no attempt to say "I want just the good part of it, spare me the other" is going to change that. People are people.

It's all part of the same thing. And you either want it all, or you get none.

 

[OGN]

Of course everyone is free to play the game they want. It's all to their credit and if they get more viewers with this hype, good for them.

In this current context, the only thing that hurts me is the lack of interest in KOTD 4 when it's one of the biggest tournament in terms of prize money that AoE2 has had since its creation.

Memb has done a lot for the AoE2 scene for so many years... I would even say that he made some of them eat. And today I don't hear any of the pro gamers taking the time to promote this great event that is coming. On the contrary, some of them let us believe that the motivation is not there...

It costs nothing to promote KOTD motivation or not. For Memb, for the Aoe2 scene (which still exists), for the viewers. Let's not forget that we have all been in the same boat for a very long time.

If you go here Memb, thanks for all you did for AoE2 until now. I will try to honor your tournament by casting it with dignity for the French public

 

[Cocaineallday]

Of course everyone is free to play the game they want. It's all to their credit and if they get more viewers with this hype, good for them.

In this current context, the only thing that hurts me is the lack of interest in KOTD 4 when it's one of the biggest tournament in terms of prize money that AoE2 has had since its creation.

Memb has done a lot for the AoE2 scene for so many years... I would even say that he made some of them eat. And today I don't hear any of the pro gamers taking the time to promote this great event that is coming. On the contrary, some of them let us believe that the motivation is not there...

It costs nothing to promote KOTD motivation or not. For Memb, for the Aoe2 scene (which still exists), for the viewers. Let's not forget that we have all been in the same boat for a very long time.

If you go through Memb, thanks for all you did for AoE2 until now. I will try to honor your tournament by casting it with dignity for the French public

Respect bro. I like your style.

 

[DedlyYetti]

yes, i think the aoe 2 dynasty is over

 

[ltm]

It's understandable AOE4 get's a lot of attention at the moment, but we'll have to see how long that will last and how it may work out for the streamers.

But let's be honest, we might be over the peak of AOE2 no matter how AOE4 turns out over the next months/year. We saw a steady increase in viewers, tournaments, prize money etc, DE gave a huge push to the scene and the pandemic did it's part as well so it pretty much was a constant increase in every aspect up until AOE4 was released.

Don't think that can just continue from there if both games co-exist or even if AOE4 hype dies down at some point. Red Bull 5 might be kind of a peak point of DE. Sadly KOTD has very unfortunate timing, i really hope it's a big success for Memb but the hype just doesn't seem to be there what is a bit sad. Imagine if AOE4 wasn't out yet...all eyes and player focus would be on KOTD, i feel Memb and the tournament would deserve that but oh well it is what it is.

Viper and T90 moving FB fits that as well, with that uncertainty it's probably the smartest move to "cash in" now and secure the future in case the whole AOE thing kinda dies down after the initial AOE4 hype but in the long run it might also not be great for AOE2, in case it gets hard to attract sponsors again. All that being said i as a viewer just hope we continue to see tournament support, and that AOE4 isn't that dominant to a point where all pro's completely abandon the game to chase money. I don't care if the prize pool for an event is 100k or 10k, as long as we see great players participating.

 

[b1gwalt]

The community is in a very bad place right now, and I think it is fairly understandable. Barring the trolls saying people are playing Aoe4 because MS are paying, there are very legitimate reasons to be quite upset.

- TheViper, practically everyone's favourite and the AoE2 GOAT, a true legend, moving to FB Gaming and significantly stepping back from the game

- Nili saying much more tournament interest in AoE4 than AoE2

- Hera, Daut and many others investing a lot of time in AoE4, before an extremely/most prestigious AoE2 tournament

It is crucial to not expect or demand behaviour of other people (I.e. it is completely unreasonable to say that Viper or whoever is "disrespecting the viewer" by playing a game he is having fun playing). That said, with everything that's happening right now, it is simply a fact that AoE2's competitive scene will take a significant hit.

There has been this talk of the two games coexisting - that works up to a point. I think the issue with that idea in a competitive sense is that you can only stream/practise/watch one game at a time, so when AoE4 is figured out a bit more, the two games are different enough that I doubt any one human could be the best at both. Therefore, if all the cream of the AoE2 crop move to AoE4, a new generation will have to come in, and we'll be back to square one in terms of Twitch viewing numbers as people try to build a new brand, etc. etc. Not to mention people like Viper seem genuinely nice and likeable people, so not having them play the game would be very sad. Viper winning RBW5 live in Heidelberg was simply amazing, and now kind of poignant, was it the last hurrah?

So I do think that the AoE2 scene is going to be on life support for a while. Personally, while I can see that both games are fun, AoE4 is a "breath of fresh air" but AoE2 is simply just the better game (competitively speaking). So my only hope is that either AoE4 is improved to a point where it is as good as AoE2, which is going to be very difficult given AoE2 is the best game ever made, or the AoE2 scene picks up momentum again after this short hiatus.

 

[Yankes]

Just wait untill some new hot game comes out and big part of new viewership will jump there cause they arent about aoe4, they are just about whatever is the newest popular game. Streamers may see things diffrent then.

 

[petermcpete]

The vitriol towards players enjoying AoE4 is pretty sickening. By all means, be upset about your favourite streamers/players not playing your favourite game; by all means, let's think of the potential long-term impact and consider how we manage that as a community; what is awful is this bitterness and nastiness towards people who are enjoying a new, much-hyped game in their field.

The game is only two weeks old. Of course they're motivated and excited to play it and make content on it. It's still a shiny new toy. There are all sorts of possibilities and unknowns about its future, so it makes sense that they'd want to stay on top of it and keep their options open with it, whether because it's fun for them or through career prospects.

Suggesting they should be shunned by the community, dropped from tournaments, talking about them like they're traitors - it's unfair, unjustified, and doesn't serve anyone any benefit. If you don't want to watch them and support them because of some feeling of wrong-doing, fine. Don't talk down to them and belittle them for their choice, though.

"Sickening"

Dry your eyes mate.

 

[Halleju]

Of course everyone is free to play the game they want. It's all to their credit and if they get more viewers with this hype, good for them.

In this current context, the only thing that hurts me is the lack of interest in KOTD 4 when it's one of the biggest tournament in terms of prize money that AoE2 has had since its creation.

Memb has done a lot for the AoE2 scene for so many years... I would even say that he made some of them eat. And today I don't hear any of the pro gamers taking the time to promote this great event that is coming. On the contrary, some of them let us believe that the motivation is not there...

It costs nothing to promote KOTD motivation or not. For Memb, for the Aoe2 scene (which still exists), for the viewers. Let's not forget that we have all been in the same boat for a very long time.

If you go here Memb, thanks for all you did for AoE2 until now. I will try to honor your tournament by casting it with dignity for the French public

100 % agree.
Also it's sad to see, how twitch/streaming money devalued even such insanly high prizepool tournaments like kotd4 with 75k$. For people like Viper and Hera, 20 k$ for 1st place is nothing to be exited for anymore, since they make this with streaming in one month. So they dont really care, if a new game gets their focus at the same time.

 

[LowEloNobody]

If you are a reasonable AoE2 lover who doesn't think this is the apocalypse, but are a bit worried about the future of the high-level competitive Age 2 scene, take a deep breath...

If you are a fanatic tin-foil hat "Microsoft is intentionally trying to kill age 2" conspiracist, or "Viper & T90 are the devil for moving to facebook" troll, take a deep breath, and hold it, and hold it, and hold it, and once you pass out, we can continue with this post.

Even if we think Age 4 is a top-tier polished game (which, tbf, I don't think it is personally), we are still in the honeymoon phase of the game. If you look at top-tier releases recently that are objectively higher production value, they all have a significant drop off in players within 1-6 months.
New World has lost 60% of its peak player base within 4 weeks.
HumanKind has lost 90% of its player base in 3 months

Age 4 has been out for 2 weeks now. It was hitting ~70k players in week 1, ~50-60k players in week 2, and is sub ~40k players so far this week (although we should expect a ~10k variation over the weekend).

So we should really wait and see what Age 4 looks like at the end of month 1 and month 3. Because we know what Age 2 looks like. It has had ~15k average players since it's release, and it actually doesn't look like that has been changing much over the past several weeks.

So the real answer of "iS tHe AgE oF EMpIrEs 2 DyNaSTY OvURRR" is WE DON'T KNOW (but probably not)

What we do know is that the Age of Empires 2 community is cultish about its top streamers and their moves have a disproportionate impact on the narrative of the zone

 

[amazing_knight]

Relax guys.

Everyone knows AoE4 won't live long. Just like AoE3, AoE4 will be dead in some time as new fancy games come along. Whether it's a matter of weeks or months, that's the only question. Till then, every streamer wants to explore a new game and extract whatever they can from AoE4 content. That's understandable.

But players/streamers should not make the mistake to move too far away from AoE2, otherwise their own return will become impossible.

 

[Bowserlord]

the timing for kotd4 is just bad. who wants to train aoe2 if he can play aoe4?

 

[Lightysword]

Also people need to realize that real tournament practice is off stream anyways. Viper trolling someone with Orjan guns on KOTD Arabia is not practice for KOTD, its entertainment.

 

[The Bloodless]

Also people need to realize that real tournament practice is off stream anyways. Viper trolling someone with Orjan guns on KOTD Arabia is not practice for KOTD, its entertainment.

Very true. Can you imagine gl guys actually showing their prepared strats on stream before the tourny?