Is anything going to change?

UnknownMaSmOrRa

Halberdier
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2012
1,345
409
103
#1
To my big surprise (and disappointment), I've just noticed that the thread where the events occurred during the Slam vs Feanor match were being discussed, has been locked.

So after 10 or so pages, Slam (the only player who was negatively effected by the events being discussed) finally decides to speak up saying he felt like he was at a disadvantage because of what happened and suddenly Admins decide the discussion is leading "no where" without further action? Strange to say the least. Sounds like an attempt at sweeping the problems under the rug and hoping people forget about it.
I personally thought the discussion was being productive, but something needs to happen.

Earlier I had missed the part where Melkor openly admits he gave actual strategy tipps to his brother. Slam just said he finds that unfair.
So my questions are:

- Is anything going to be done about it?
- Are the games going to be replayed?
- Are the rules going to be made more clear for these types of situations?

To those complaining how pointless the discussion is and people should just let pros do what they want: please keep in mind that the people donating to these tournaments are usually not the pros.
Just as an example, I saw Andrew (who was one of the people who donated to the prize pool if I'm not mistaken) expressing concerns for what happened. Probably others share the same feelings.

Regardless of what the decision is, I think something must be said/done. A statement from the Admins, a change of rules, something.
 

Franceedie

Champion
Monk
May 9, 2013
4,582
1,654
128
#2
Masmorra stop drama pls unecessar drama pfff what I read is embarrassing (Euler style lol)

The problem is real and I think need at least an official warning and adapt rules to this kind of unfair help or something from admin so we can move on.
 

UnknownMaSmOrRa

Halberdier
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2012
1,345
409
103
#3

SpainPoxo

Halberdier
Oct 27, 2012
2,006
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Madrid, Spain
Voobly
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#4
The pressure on admins is too high and they aren't 'strong' enough to force a replay or even a change, yes they are hoping it to be forgotten under the rug.

- Is anything going to be done about it? - No
- Are the games going to be replayed? - No
- Are the rules going to be made more clear for these types of situations? - Hard to do, will ask politely not to cheat, again.
 
Feb 16, 2016
1,390
557
128
22
Netherlands
www.reddit.com
#5
Ok so the reason why I locked the thread is: 1. Both parties involved had done their say. 2. I warned Melkor not to help Timotheus again. 3. I said the games would count 4. There were alot of personal attacks going on (That you can get away with this anywhere else on aoczone fine, but not in places where I can help it) 5. The rec thread is imo not the place to discuss the overall morality of the situation, which I also stated.

In terms of making a rule change, you are right a rule should and will be instated to punish this kind of behaviour (even though its virtually unenforcable). Locking the thread was never an attempt to sweep it under the rug even though you probably wont believe that. Anyway I felt like I did the right thing locking the thread and I still do, you can continue to discuss the situation here or any other thread.
 

Englandparoofex

Active Member
Sep 1, 2011
690
30
43
#6
Ok so the reason why I locked the thread is: 1. Both parties involved had done their say. 2. I warned Melkor not to help Timotheus again. 3. I said the games would count 4. There were alot of personal attacks going on (That you can get away with this anywhere else on aoczone fine, but not in places where I can help it) 5. The rec thread is imo not the place to discuss the overall morality of the situation, which I also stated.

In terms of making a rule change, you are right a rule should and will be instated to punish this kind of behaviour (even though its virtually unenforcable). Locking the thread was never an attempt to sweep it under the rug even though you probably wont believe that. Anyway I felt like I did the right thing locking the thread and I still do, you can continue to discuss the situation here or any other thread.
Handled well there, masmora, what do you want to be done??
 

UnknownMaSmOrRa

Halberdier
Bronze Supporter
Sep 24, 2012
1,345
409
103
#7
Ok so the reason why I locked the thread is: 1. Both parties involved had done their say. 2. I warned Melkor not to help Timotheus again. 3. I said the games would count 4. There were alot of personal attacks going on (That you can get away with this anywhere else on aoczone fine, but not in places where I can help it) 5. The rec thread is imo not the place to discuss the overall morality of the situation, which I also stated.

In terms of making a rule change, you are right a rule should and will be instated to punish this kind of behaviour (even though its virtually unenforcable). Locking the thread was never an attempt to sweep it under the rug even though you probably wont believe that. Anyway I felt like I did the right thing locking the thread and I still do, you can continue to discuss the situation here or any other thread.
Why shouldn't I believe you? If you say all the above has been done/will be done, then I'm happy.
It just felt very wrong to lock the thread right after Slam spoke out. Made me feel like you were ignoring what he had just said.

But again, if that was not the case and you have taken the steps mentioned above, kudos to you and lets hope the tournament runs without further hiccups!
 

IrelandTimotheus_

Well Known Pikeman
Feb 14, 2012
1,102
192
78
20
#10
To my big surprise (and disappointment), I've just noticed that the thread where the events occurred during the Slam vs Feanor match were being discussed, has been locked.

So after 10 or so pages, Slam (the only player who was negatively effected by the events being discussed) finally decides to speak up saying he felt like he was at a disadvantage because of what happened and suddenly Admins decide the discussion is leading "no where" without further action? Strange to say the least. Sounds like an attempt at sweeping the problems under the rug and hoping people forget about it.
I personally thought the discussion was being productive, but something needs to happen.

Earlier I had missed the part where Melkor openly admits he gave actual strategy tipps to his brother. Slam just said he finds that unfair.
So my questions are:

- Is anything going to be done about it?
- Are the games going to be replayed?
- Are the rules going to be made more clear for these types of situations?

To those complaining how pointless the discussion is and people should just let pros do what they want: please keep in mind that the people donating to these tournaments are usually not the pros.
Just as an example, I saw Andrew (who was one of the people who donated to the prize pool if I'm not mistaken) expressing concerns for what happened. Probably others share the same feelings.

Regardless of what the decision is, I think something must be said/done. A statement from the Admins, a change of rules, something.
tldr; we've been told to stop, we will stop.


This is the first official time (by admins and other community) we've been told to stop. Now we've been told we shouldn't do it, fine we won't. We've been doing this ever since we started playing voobly tournaments 6 years ago. We have made no effort to hide it. On our stream, I am constantly saying I am Melkor's coach as I do have better game knowledge than him (just slower as I've had my mouse for 9 months instead of 4 years).

In the series we just played, in G4 I was already making rams when my brother walked in. Only things he told me G1-4 was in G3, (i) he wanted to see a pop 32 advance so I obliged his curiousity, (ii) made some castle age karambits, which I probably wouldve done anyway. He was actually criticizing my play in G4. In this series, there was nothing on idle villagers/holes in wall/etc. If he was giving me more direction, he probably would've mention my 70 lumberjacks with 10k wood in G1 :lol:

When my brother played BacT, I was looking at his screen only telling him what strategies to do based on what he was doing/BacT was doing. There was no outcry there and we've always taken it as the advantage of being brothers in the same house. As my brother mentioned (i)our pc's are right next to each other (ii) we enjoy watching streams of the other playing. However, we realise that because if the other is watching the stream beside the person playing, then it would be difficult to not streamcheat by accident. Therefore, in general, we just focus on the one pc (if we are even in the room which isn't all the time). On top of this, a lot of time the other is just checking random stuff on the net and we just discuss the civs, combo's and stuff when the person who is not playing isn't even looking at the game. These habits come from playing a huge amount of boardgames and analysing them as we play/finish so we learn and not make the same mistakes. If we are playing a 1v1 boardgame we analyise as we play, same as if we play a 1v1 on AoC.
 

Franceedie

Champion
Monk
May 9, 2013
4,582
1,654
128
#11
Now question is this ok to do on rated games ? Rated games are less serious, more fun, and giving tips to help live the gameplay of your brother/friends, is it ok ?

The live help/coaching has to not give information about the opponent, about what he is doing or how his maps is that the player don’t know or didn’t explore.

Or the help and tips should be done after the games also in rated games ?

I’m just asking opinions, I’m not saying it’s ok, even if personally if my opponent receiving live tips (like most streamer does from their chat) I would’t mean because it’s just rated game and nothing serious to me unlike tournament or event, where there is money and score are important.

It’s true that in past I had different opinion on this matter, but now since everyone does it with their stream chat I am used of it and also I’m taking way less serious rated game than I used
 

LatviaklavskisLV

Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
236
131
48
#12
To my big surprise (and disappointment), I've just noticed that the thread where the events occurred during the Slam vs Feanor match were being discussed, has been locked.

So after 10 or so pages, Slam (the only player who was negatively effected by the events being discussed) finally decides to speak up saying he felt like he was at a disadvantage because of what happened and suddenly Admins decide the discussion is leading "no where" without further action? Strange to say the least. Sounds like an attempt at sweeping the problems under the rug and hoping people forget about it.
I personally thought the discussion was being productive, but something needs to happen.

Earlier I had missed the part where Melkor openly admits he gave actual strategy tipps to his brother. Slam just said he finds that unfair.
So my questions are:

- Is anything going to be done about it?
- Are the games going to be replayed?
- Are the rules going to be made more clear for these types of situations?

To those complaining how pointless the discussion is and people should just let pros do what they want: please keep in mind that the people donating to these tournaments are usually not the pros.
Just as an example, I saw Andrew (who was one of the people who donated to the prize pool if I'm not mistaken) expressing concerns for what happened. Probably others share the same feelings.

Regardless of what the decision is, I think something must be said/done. A statement from the Admins, a change of rules, something.
tldr; we've been told to stop, we will stop.


This is the first official time (by admins and other community) we've been told to stop. Now we've been told we shouldn't do it, fine we won't. We've been doing this ever since we started playing voobly tournaments 6 years ago. We have made no effort to hide it. On our stream, I am constantly saying I am Melkor's coach as I do have better game knowledge than him (just slower as I've had my mouse for 9 months instead of 4 years).

In the series we just played, in G4 I was already making rams when my brother walked in. Only things he told me G1-4 was in G3, (i) he wanted to see a pop 32 advance so I obliged his curiousity, (ii) made some castle age karambits, which I probably wouldve done anyway. He was actually criticizing my play in G4. In this series, there was nothing on idle villagers/holes in wall/etc. If he was giving me more direction, he probably would've mention my 70 lumberjacks with 10k wood in G1 :lol:

When my brother played BacT, I was looking at his screen only telling him what strategies to do based on what he was doing/BacT was doing. There was no outcry there and we've always taken it as the advantage of being brothers in the same house. As my brother mentioned (i)our pc's are right next to each other (ii) we enjoy watching streams of the other playing. However, we realise that because if the other is watching the stream beside the person playing, then it would be difficult to not streamcheat by accident. Therefore, in general, we just focus on the one pc (if we are even in the room which isn't all the time). On top of this, a lot of time the other is just checking random stuff on the net and we just discuss the civs, combo's and stuff when the person who is not playing isn't even looking at the game. These habits come from playing a huge amount of boardgames and analysing them as we play/finish so we learn and not make the same mistakes. If we are playing a 1v1 boardgame we analyise as we play, same as if we play a 1v1 on AoC.
Coach Timo 10/10
Melkor pocket 5/10
Confirmed by klavskis!
 

United KingdomFall

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Jun 12, 2013
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#13
This kind of thing is completely unenforceable and it speaks well to the brothers' character that they have been so honest about it. As far as I'm concerned their word that it won't happen again in a tournament is good enough.
 
Jun 21, 2014
410
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#15
Idk what exactly happened, but just my two cents:

First of all, coaching is pretty common in all types of games/sports etc. In professional CS GO, LoL or other competitive online games most teams have a coach. And in official tournaments (LANs) the coach is also present.

The huge difference is, that the coach is also "locked" in the same room as the players, so he can't see the screen/ hear the moderators talking etc., meaning some sort of streamsniping is not possible.

If Melkor was streamsniping and giving tips to Timo, it should been considered as cheating (unfair), but if he was just watching Timo's POV and giving tips, it doesn't count as cheating and should fall under the category of 'fair'.

But on the other hand, even a single player can cheat in tournaments easily, if the game is streamed on twitch. In AoC we can't control/check it. So in my opinion Melkor being present doesn't matter at all.
 

Unknownglokken

Active Member
Mar 19, 2014
266
26
28
#16
Idk what exactly happened, but just my two cents:

First of all, coaching is pretty common in all types of games/sports etc. In professional CS GO, LoL or other competitive online games most teams have a coach. And in official tournaments (LANs) the coach is also present.

The huge difference is, that the coach is also "locked" in the same room as the players, so he can't see the screen/ hear the moderators talking etc., meaning some sort of streamsniping is not possible.

If Melkor was streamsniping and giving tips to Timo, it should been considered as cheating (unfair), but if he was just watching Timo's POV and giving tips, it doesn't count as cheating and should fall under the category of 'fair'.

But on the other hand, even a single player can cheat in tournaments easily, if the game is streamed on twitch. In AoC we can't control/check it. So in my opinion Melkor being present doesn't matter at all.
They already said they don't watch streams or spectate the game cus the 2 computers are in the same room.

Every sport has coaches, I really don't see how it's considered cheating.
 

Netherlandsnimanoe

Knight
Bronze Supporter
Jan 15, 2014
1,930
894
138
23
#17
Idk what exactly happened, but just my two cents:

First of all, coaching is pretty common in all types of games/sports etc. In professional CS GO, LoL or other competitive online games most teams have a coach. And in official tournaments (LANs) the coach is also present.

The huge difference is, that the coach is also "locked" in the same room as the players, so he can't see the screen/ hear the moderators talking etc., meaning some sort of streamsniping is not possible.

If Melkor was streamsniping and giving tips to Timo, it should been considered as cheating (unfair), but if he was just watching Timo's POV and giving tips, it doesn't count as cheating and should fall under the category of 'fair'.

But on the other hand, even a single player can cheat in tournaments easily, if the game is streamed on twitch. In AoC we can't control/check it. So in my opinion Melkor being present doesn't matter at all.
They already said they don't watch streams or spectate the game cus the 2 computers are in the same room.

Every sport has coaches, I really don't see how it's considered cheating.
I think the problem is that they are the only one who have a "coach", which is why it's unfair to the competition.

Also in CSGO there are heavy regulations against coaches, so that they are only allowed to talk during time-outs (pauses) and inbetween matches
 
Jun 21, 2014
410
14
23
Voobly
Ladder
RM - Team Games
Rating
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1200
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1205
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#18
Well I know there are restrictions to coaches in CS GO.

I think the problem is that they are the only one who have a "coach", which is why it's unfair to the competition.
Well the competition can have coaches too, maybe a little more different (Teamspeak, Skype or voobly chat), so I don't see any problem in it. And the top players are still top players even without having a coach...
 

Belgiumspeer141

Known Member
Aug 31, 2014
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#19
Idk what exactly happened, but just my two cents:

First of all, coaching is pretty common in all types of games/sports etc. In professional CS GO, LoL or other competitive online games most teams have a coach. And in official tournaments (LANs) the coach is also present.

The huge difference is, that the coach is also "locked" in the same room as the players, so he can't see the screen/ hear the moderators talking etc., meaning some sort of streamsniping is not possible.

If Melkor was streamsniping and giving tips to Timo, it should been considered as cheating (unfair), but if he was just watching Timo's POV and giving tips, it doesn't count as cheating and should fall under the category of 'fair'.

But on the other hand, even a single player can cheat in tournaments easily, if the game is streamed on twitch. In AoC we can't control/check it. So in my opinion Melkor being present doesn't matter at all.
They already said they don't watch streams or spectate the game cus the 2 computers are in the same room.

Every sport has coaches, I really don't see how it's considered cheating.
next tourney i will fly you out to my place to be my coach. :lol:
 
Sep 4, 2017
37
35
18
#20
This is an interesting topic, with implications beyond the game of Slam v Feanor and I will deliberately ignore any reference to their game as I think it is unhelpful to focus on any specific individuals or instances.
Lots of different people have expressed some very well-articulated opinions… hopefully I’ll do the same.

……….

In all games of AOE, ‘cheating’ is either frowned upon or explicitly forbidden depending on the type of game taking place and the format of the cheating.
Cheating is broadly understood to mean gaining an unfair advantage – but this doesn’t mean that the concept is clear.

For some types of unfair advantages, the rule is black and white – “how do you turn this on” for example – and systems have been developed to prevent these instances. However, other types of unfair advantage occupy a grey area of the game.

These types of advantages have been debated many times on these forums and everyone has an opinion about how unfair they are; things like macros, stream-sniping, Twitch-chat, live coaching… the list is long.
Most of the time, it’s perfectly acceptable for these types of advantages to remain in the ‘grey zone’; because a victory or defeat on the RM 1v1 ladder isn’t of significant consequence for the majority of players. Therefore, relying on our individual and collective morality to play games fairly works in most instances. However, when tournaments are offering cash prizes, the significance increases.

To reflect the increased stakes, tournaments will usually issue a set of rules and settings which participants must abide by and are specific to the tournament. Historically, these rules and settings add new elements which are not built in to the game designed mechanics, reflecting the increased significance of the games. However, the rules are also generally pretty light when you consider the full potential scope of grey areas that could constitute an unfair advantage – a full list would be incredibly long and arduous to both read and enforce. However, as the stakes of tournaments continues to increase, the number of instances where players try to gain an unfair advantage will also increase – this is human nature.

Ultimately it will come down to the players and tournament organisers. As long as people are happy to participate in tournaments that operate these grey areas, nothing will change and controversies will continue (some could argue that controversies like this are good for the game!). But if the players request clearer definitions around what constitutes an unfair advantage, then tournament organisers will have to be more explicit in their rules and settings. Saying “Cheating will not be tolerated” as a rule does not provide administrators with the required leverage to make decisions on situations and impose penalties. Whether one thing is cheating or not may never be resolved in AOE as a whole, but this is possible (to some extent) for individual tournaments.
 

SlovakiaIvIaximus

Well-Known Member
May 16, 2010
3,336
60
63
#21
Locking that thread was **** move. There is shit ton of trolling thread and no one is bothered by that. Discussing that mater in thread where incriminating games were posted is most obvious and logical thing to do. This is discussion board and so you discuss anything game related. Even if it is controversial topic. And as far as I know mods made no clear statement prior to closing that thread.
Argument (in previous topic) that said actions were not against rules is ridiculous. Every rule up to day is result of unprecedented action in past. So it is only obvious that there was no rule against such action simply because nothing like that ever happened in past.(that we know of) But everyone here knows that any 3rd party involvement is forbidden. Applies to humans as well. In any case if you have at least a little bit of common sense your conscience should tell you that by doing that you are doing something wrong. This is duel aka battle between two individuals not group of people to prove who is superior in matter of skills. He could as well just co-op his bro in game.
Comparing aoc to other competitive games is also stupid because: a) they are different games; b) this is not competitive e-sport. In any case both participants are aware of existence of coaches unlike this scenario where slam knew nothing.
*RANT END*
Nothing against brothers but they both clearly crossed the line. Not in terms of actual rules of course. As far as rules have not been broken Timotheus should not been DQ. Slam also expressed his resentment to replaying games. However admins should have made public statement that from now on this behavior is against the rules and they have personally spoken to both parties involved. And of course they should not lock topic. The tournament should just keep going as it is.
 

NetherlandsDirkjan

Active Member
Oct 19, 2014
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#23
you guys and your edgy usernames, i always pronounced it as iviaximus or so in my head
took me way to long with dreaivis too 11
 

United StatesJoshuaR

Known Member
Oct 11, 2013
258
120
58
#24
As I said in the other thread, it's clearly an advantage (however big or small you believe it to be), so it shouldn't happen in future 1v1 tournament games, which Timotheus and Melkor have already agreed to. I think an issue is that they've done this the whole time they've been playing and never really been told that it's unacceptable, even though people knew they were doing this, so I agree on the decision not to DQ or re-play games.

As for rated games, the brotherly assistance will be incorporated into the rating, so who cares?
 

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