How to learn Dark Age/Build Orders?

[SadAndLoneWolf]

I always fail at the start. (Finding a boar or sheep to late, housed, idle TC, ...). I watched the replays of my multiplayer games and I loose very often because my opponent is faster in Feudal Age and attacking and I was too slow to scout him on time or attack him first. I watched many games of people who are not that much higher rated than me (me 1450 (on voobly), the other I watch 1500-1700) and it looks like they are not that much better but they have a faster start and attack earlier. Can you tell me how you learned the Dark Age perfectly and how long it took to have a Dark Age without fails? I played already around 500 games but it seems I don´t improve.

Some other questions:
1. After I lured a boar and one sheep is already killed, how many villagers should eat the sheep if sheep has more than 50 food?
2. When it happens that my villagers kill 2 sheeps at the same time how should I continue? Still lure the boar and ignore this mistake and continue the build order or lure the boar later and add the next villagers to one of the sheeps?
3. How to scout at the very beginning? I always use two sheeps and the scout. But I think I´m doing something wrong because often I can´t find a boar, two sheeps, ...?
4. If I have already 6 on sheep and I didn´t scout a good forest but only a small one. Should I build the lumbercamp at the small forest or let the villager take wood from the trees next to the TC until I find a good forest?
5. The last question is, do you think I should continue with this game or better stop it if I´m too retarded? (Be honest) I don´t have to be a pro at this game to have fun but I would want to get to a level where not 9 out of 10 games are decided in Feudal Age so I can build real big armies in Imperial Age and have epic fights with it :D

All advice whether by noobs or real pros are appreciated

 

[csatooms]

the interactive build order guide on Voobly is pretty helpful
https://www.voobly.com/gamemods/mod/1115/Interactive-Build-Order-Guide

 

[buhanisson]

I always thought dark age is one of the easiest things to learn in this game, because it literally happens every single game. And I'm sure you are already better after 500 games than you were in the very first game you ever played even though many people even at 1500-1700 level have played thousands of games.

Personally, I dont think "dark age without any fails at all" even needs to be the goal at 1500 level. You just have to play enough to be able to adapt to the small mistakes or unfortunate maps that happen every now and then. Villagers accidentally killing 2 sheep or some other minor thing like that should have 0 effect on the outcome of a 1500 level game.

To answer question number 5, the beautiful thing about this game is that there are different maps and scenarios for every kind of taste and every kind of player. Obviously, to see epic imperial battles on 1v1 arabia, you must be pretty good on dark, feudal and castle age too, but you can always go black forest or something else that suits you better if you sometimes feel the learning curve is too overwhelming.

 

[gwfe]

I would practice the dark age in single player until it works really well. Maybe you could upload a rec for people to have a look at.

1./2. Well there is a tradeoff here between gathering as much food as possible (finish sheep first, minize rot) and collect as fast as possible. If going for fast feudal, getting food fast is often more important. A good trick is to park the boar under the tc when you are still finishing sheep (watch out it doesn't run away again though).

3. There is some skill to scouting: The first priority is to find the 4 sheep, gotta find them as fast as possible. But then scout smartly, try not to cover area twice, scout in different directions with scout and sheep etc. Missing two sheep occasionally is not the end of the world.

4. If you really haven't found a good forest yet, take stragglers. But note that size isn't everything when it comes to your wood, it should also ideally be to the back, not have ugly oases, be nice and thick so you can't be harassed/towered so easily... choose wisely

5. Well so long as you're having fun I'd say you should continue even if you were the most sux player in the world! If you want some imperial fights and so on you could also try a more closed map.

 

[_Mr_St4rk_]

*Self promotion intensifies*

 

[kw1k000000]

*Self promotion intensifies*

Your basic build order series is easily the best explained and most noob friendly.

@SadAndLoneWolf

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkfKpVNo6sRmnJn5PIDLNL_uFj8QIplB_

 

[Double_N]

If you really struggle with getting TC running it is either because you just forget or because you don´t get food fast enough. First is just about getting into a rhythm of clicking the TC + vill create button every few seconds.

Second is when you don´t know when and how to forcedrop, are ineffecient with sheep etc.

If you want to work on either of these problems, just go in single player and try to not get idle time the first 2:30, 5, 7:30 or 10 minutes. This would get you to 10,16,22, or 28 pop. If you have only 8 pop at 2:30 or 13 at 5, you can just try over. The more often you do it and the more attention you pay to details, the more you realize when you usually struggle. I wrote some about such details here

https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/94hw1h/my_favorite_part_of_aoe2_is_that_if_i_lose_a_1v1/e3l5hv9/

and here

https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/98skkx/yet_another_noob_needing_dark_age_help/e4ig3b3/

 

[SadAndLoneWolf]

Thanks @csatooms I will try this.

@buhanisson Of course it´s nearly impossible to click up Feudal Age with 22 pop + loom exactly at 7:55 but I often click up at 9:xx and I think this is too much. Probably the lost food of the sheep is not that bad. It´s just anoying. It´s more the scouting that I can´t find a boar on time. The other maps like Black Forest are too boring in my opinion. I know there can´t be the perfect map for my expectations of a epic game combined with my lack of skill :D but I like the map Arabia and I think it´s hard to find other people playing other maps than Arabia, Black Forest, Nomad and Arena. The problem is I had around 25 games today and except one all were decided in Feudal Age. That makes it a bit boring.

@gwfe
1./2. I have seen this from pro player doing this. But I think the risk the boar runs away is too high :D
3. Yes. I often miss two sheeps. That´s not that bad. I always try to scout with the two sheeps around the TC. For example I find the 4 sheeps West of TC one sheep surrounds the TC at the North the other at South. Should I scout only with one sheep next to TC and send the other sheep away from TC?
4. okay. That´s more or less how I doing.
5. It´s fun but it´s also frustration. :D I think there are not much maps other people are playing. Arena is a good map but I don´t understand how you should react on this map because there is no way to scout. So you don´t know what your enemy is doing. That´s why I prefer open maps like Arabia.

@Double_N That´s good advice. I mostly idle the TC only for a short time. But 3 x 15 seconds + then maybe one time housed it happens I click up far too late.

Much thanks for all the help!!!

 

[Chainsaw]

Hi man. Some questions:
- Do you generally have an idea of what you want to do before you click up to feudal? At what point in the dark age?
- At what point do you check what civ your opponent is?
- Do you have a routine of what order things should be done, e.g. after 3 on berry, go to next boar, when vill goes to second boar, build house?
- Do you use your idle vill hotkey?
- Do you know the rules for scouting opponent's base, like if you find a boar, or main gold, or relics, or distance it is in the minimap?

I don't mean to condescend, but if you know these things then it helps a lot. Also, like someone already mentioned, you could just play Vs AI until you get to feudal, then quit game and start again, rinse and repeat until this part of the game is automatic. Might be boring, but I'm guessing it might beat getting frustrated cause of small mistakes.

 

[SadAndLoneWolf]

@Chainsaw Yes I do. 9 out of 10 times I want to attack with militia/maa because in a noob game at my level it´s best to attack early before your opponent attacks. It also has the advantage in the build order you send 4 on wood instead of 3 so I have more time with scouting the boars. The first clicks are TC producing villagers and building two houses sending scout to the sheep. After this I mostly look for the opponent civ. I think maa is always a good option because (in theory) you can attack at a time where the counter (archers) is not available. Tell me if I´m not right with this or what else would you say I should do instead?

I try to follow the Build order as good I can but to be honest I can´t say I have a routine because often I miss even the house at 15 pop. Many houses are even panic houses built by two villagers. I use idle villagers hotkey (Y). I have A for eco buildings and S for military buildings and then QWER for the special buildings. Go to TC is a button at my mouse.

Well i don´t know if I know everything. So far I know everyone has 2x 2 extra sheeps, two boars, 4 deers, 3 golds with more 4 and 7 tiles and 2 stones with 5 and 4 tiles. And the TC is always some away to hills or cliffs, relics and neutral golds and stones (neutral stone is even 4 tiles I think). Do you know the exact distances?

 

[Chainsaw]

You have a good point about maa is good at this level. However, it adds to the amount of multitasking you have to do in dark age and if it leads to a messy dark age for you, it might help to instead stay at home and go agro in feudal. Also, what do you accomplish with your maa? Do you kill a vill, or 2? If you use your maa to annoy your opponent but aren't able to keep up with your eco at home, then it has the opposite effect that you are crippling yourself more than your opponent.

https://www.forgottenempires.net/aof/strategy/scouting has some pretty good info on scouting. There is a picture there that illustrates where an enemy can be.

 

[Double_N]

If you struggle with build orders, you might want to try something other than [email protected] [email protected] is quite tough for beginners as it requires very good scouting in dark age and early feudal age is not as straight forward as scouts or archers macro wise.

 

[buhanisson]

If you keep getting housed at 15 pop, its not about knowing the exact distances of mines or whatnot. You just have to play until you can honestly say that you have that routine. It takes a while and theres no shortcuts, unfortunately, but its really quite simple, and the more useless statistics you add to the mix, the more confused you will be. Just get enough food and Wood, dont get housed, and click up. Das it. Sooner than you realize, you will be able to do it in your sleep.

 

[Jeowaypoint]

Seeing you broached the matter of perfection regarding dark age, Qs 1 and 2 are highly redundant, as these things cannot happen if you have even the slightest idea on the steps necessary to have as low amounts of the three idle-time types, which are:

• Zero TC idle time – Your TC is always producing a villager or researching loom.
• Zero scout idle time – Your scout is always moving, always exploring.
• Zero villager idle time – Your villagers are always constructing something, resource gathering or walking somewhere, never standing still doing nothing.

(from a post by Gary_Internet, a good read, so read it)

All of these are pretty much only control group and HK usage of H+C or whatever vill-creation equivalent.
___________

Q3: YT guide by Jupe on how to find the starting sheep effectively.

Q1-2: Once that is down most of the time, you have a nice fast sheep under TC, then it's about learning how to get perfect food-gathering. It is assumed that every gaia-food source is under TC (especially sheep). Sheep transitions, which when done well negate force-drop need during sheep eating entirely and make it so that only necessary force-drops occur on timely boars. Next sheep must always be right next to the eaters, not 0.5-1 tiles away, should go without saying.

Boar timings are easy to learn, a usual method is building 2 houses with the villager at 13/15pop and proceeding to lure boar2 immediately after (in the case it fits the house-wall and forward boar2), or simply eyeing the 2nd lurer timing if you build only one house at 13/15pop and then a mill, which is another variation people use. The boar1 food count on 2nd lurer going out usually ranges from 150-200f, this varies. Better early than late, however, as you can just babysit the boar for a short while if necessary, as already suggested above.

That's about it for flawless food-gathering, if you also incorporate berry-micro (at least that they don't stuck, eg not all 4 on same side). For examples, might wanna check out Hera's dark age vid, as well, although it doesn't go to in-depth and lacks a few things. Above Sheep transitions-link has two quitarizt's old vids linked that are still relevant and in parts better than hera's equivalent.

___________

No real shortcuts, only sufficient mechanical practice so you do the food-gathering under TC flawlessly each time, then it's about Ctrl groups to keep scout moving and actually thinking of the map, what you see etc.

 

[SpanningTreeGuy]

I just have a question regarding this topic. I pretty much know the common build orders by St4rk and/or Cicero. One thing I'm always struggling with is the walling. In the common build order guides, there is no hint about what to do when the strategy includes early walling. Given for example a map like arabia, I think it would often make sense to start walling after sending vills to the berries, right? But here is my problem: Do I just send one or two new villagers for walling and so delay my progress in the build order resulting in clicking up at a higher pop count? Or do I take villagers from food or from wood to wall? I'm sure the best answer is "it depends", but perhaps someone could briefly elaborate this topic? Thank you all very much :-)

 

[Flow]

Just take a new vill.
Also make it easy for yourself, put your buildings in a way that makes your walling easier. What I like to do is put the third house (from Pop 15->20) in a place where I will want to wall anyway and then put the next house there as well.
I wouldn't go for big walls in dark age, it really puts you behind eco-wise. As you noted this is very much depends though and will naturally change with whatever strategy you opt to go for.

 

[Jeowaypoint]

The correct answer to that "BO" aspect of the question, is to not have a set BO. Just make it into modules instead of set order, like wood module, food module, etc.

Food one divides like 6f = "TC module", rest is banking for something, like next age requirement, wood module is something like 1w(houses)+2w(buildings like Mill, Rax)+1(surplus if adding farms in dark age, OR WALLING). Something like that. The idea is to unlearn the BOs that you first make automatic for efficiency's sake. Bruce Lee said it well in his Tao of Jeet Kune Do: "Learn the principle, abide by the principle, and dissolve the principle.", pointedly resulting in the 'highest form being without form' or some such, you get the idea.

Specifically for builds in aoc, you have to start seeing "eco" separate of the vills. Like Walling being nothing but a wood-eco hit (which ofc translates to slightly later farms or such, maybe some other buildings, smith=>fletching yadayada).

For walling things, read this post of St4rk and another post of St4rk.

 

[Rayne]

I just have a question regarding this topic. I pretty much know the common build orders by St4rk and/or Cicero. One thing I'm always struggling with is the walling. In the common build order guides, there is no hint about what to do when the strategy includes early walling. Given for example a map like arabia, I think it would often make sense to start walling after sending vills to the berries, right? But here is my problem: Do I just send one or two new villagers for walling and so delay my progress in the build order resulting in clicking up at a higher pop count? Or do I take villagers from food or from wood to wall? I'm sure the best answer is "it depends", but perhaps someone could briefly elaborate this topic? Thank you all very much :-)

I suppose it depends a little. It 'can matter' --mostly in the past with a distinct play-- but these days I'd say it generally doesn't.

The very core which used to make it matter was if you did scouts and if you planned a strong feudal attack. Honestly that made all the difference with these nuances. Walling with a food vill (depending on size of walls) and constructing military buildings with food vills could ruin any strong feudal attack against someone good (namely if they did scs as well), especially if you did both of these things. Having a bad Dark Age was another thing to take into account if you had it, and then you have 3 things working against you. You could have something like, I'd say -60 or -70f with those 3 (possibly a bit more), otherwise you're at least -20-30f from one of those alone. This resulted in what seemed like enormous delays in scout production. You could be something like 2 scouts behind from delays, always having like 50-60f after queuing vills in the beginning due to losing a lot of food. That was very often game deciding in some past clashes I had with few friends who had same style as I did. Using wood villls was a way I was aware of to avoid these issues, generally never making military buildings with food vills unless you add or take away one vill from food or wood depending. I know of several other players who tried this as much as I did, and I'm sure they were aware of this stuff somewhere too.

That's just for trying some old school full feudal attack with scouts + archers. After that, it doesn't really matter much. For maa play, its pretty irrelevant. If you do scouts as these days with an fc oriented style, meaning you just do 5-6 scouts and wall up, this becomes irrelevant which otherwise is critical (due to wanting minimal delays in sc production). You can use food/wood vills to make walls once you click Feudal Age (I generally prefer doing it here and after I advance so there's not much harm). You can wall even before clicking Feudal Age. I know of some really good players who do some walls at min 5-7, but its usually a new one like Flow mentioned. They're setting up a bit for the future in some situations and its fine. I'd recommend one vill, never two to answer your question. Also, you can place houses around boar depending on where they spawn for ideas of a wall setup, and have next vill continue walls from there even though its like before min 5, if you understand all that (seen this pretty often). Its not going to tarnish anything with the way aoc is played today.