AOE-HD Feudal Age Eagle Scout

United KingdomHyunAOP

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#1
If you like doing KLEW
You'll like the new changes in the new expansion. Feudal Age Eagle scouts can be made from barracks now. Combined with stronk incan trush and villagers sharing the same armour ups as eagles and aztec faster production rate and Maya cheap Archers. This is a seriously deadly combo.

Op or not?
 

MexicoSouFire

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Mar 11, 2011
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#3
Eagle scout can be abused, their pierce armor plus the speed is very powerful in feudal age, with aztks you can do a feudal pop 20 and kill really fast, since you have speed bonus and the eco to spawn ews is very simple.
 

SpainPoxo

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Eagle scout can be abused, their pierce armor plus the speed is very powerful in feudal age, with aztks you can do a feudal pop 20 and kill really fast, since you have speed bonus and the eco to spawn ews is very simple.
Sorry but KLEW is done with mayans, not with Aztec, however it may also be doable with them :D. If I'm not wrong the key is the resource lasting long bonus, u abuse them with the boars, sheeps and deers (U must lure them straight to the tc).
 

MexicoSouFire

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#6
Aztks are way better to flood the game with ews, with mayans it works better for very fast castle age purpose, but since ews can be created in feudal age, aztks have a clear advantage, but the 3 meso civs can perform it, by the way mayan bonus is reduced to 15% in the HD version.
 

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Eagle scout can be abused, their pierce armor plus the speed is very powerful in feudal age, with aztks you can do a feudal pop 20 and kill really fast, since you have speed bonus and the eco to spawn ews is very simple.
Sorry but KLEW is done with mayans, not with Aztec, however it may also be doable with them :D. If I'm not wrong the key is the resource lasting long bonus, u abuse them with the boars, sheeps and deers (U must lure them straight to the tc).
KLEW can be done with Aztecs actually too. Only difference is you need 4 farmers not 3 and need to lure all deer. Mayans don't need to lure all 3 deer. They can even get away with luring none with minimal idle time.
 

IrelandOneMillion

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#9
Eagle warriors in the feudal age is just absurd. They kill trash and archers very easily, so forget about defending from a forward with skirmishers. They die to scouts, but they're cheaper and don't die easily to spearmen, so if you don't win, you'll still go up to the castle age faster. Their only counter is men-at-arms, but they are slower, more expensive and food intensive. In other words, good luck defending your woodlines from this mobile and cheap raiding unit.

This doesn't have a large effect on team games, but in 1v1, it's enough to ensure nobody picks anything other than the Aztecs ever again. As far as I'm concerned, this would be game-breaking if HD had a competitive 1v1 scene.
 

AustriaClemensor

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#10
Eagle warriors in the feudal age is just absurd. They kill trash and archers very easily, so forget about defending from a forward with skirmishers. They die to scouts, but they're cheaper and don't die easily to spearmen, so if you don't win, you'll still go up to the castle age faster. Their only counter is men-at-arms, but they are slower, more expensive and food intensive. In other words, good luck defending your woodlines from this mobile and cheap raiding unit.

This doesn't have a large effect on team games, but in 1v1, it's enough to ensure nobody picks anything other than the Aztecs ever again. As far as I'm concerned, this would be game-breaking if HD had a competitive 1v1 scene.
no eagle forward sucks, tested it already, they die to mass archers still and produce slowly
 

IrelandOneMillion

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#11
no eagle forward sucks, tested it already, they die to mass archers still and produce slowly
If the Meso-American player does a forward as you suggest, how is the defender going to be able to achieve a mass of archers? Forwards can be won and lost very quickly, and eagles counter skirmishers very easily.

In the mid-feudal age where archers can be massed, it is true that they can focus fire on eagle warriors. However, they're still fast, cheap and can absorb 25 arrows each (with the first armour upgrade). Even if eagle warriors run into difficulties against archers, this changes when skirmishers are introduced. Skirmishers are more difficult to take out when they are screened by eagle warriors.

As far as the recruitment time is concerned, how often is the barracks constantly used during feudal wars? The most active building is normally a stable (non-Meso-American civilisations) or a pair of archery ranges. This change allows Meso-American civilisations to use a building they have to build anyway and tend to use much less than their archery ranges.

Another point: how does one defend woodlines or exposed mining zones? Either you have walls, towers or keep army units back to defend. All of these force defensive play or risk losing villagers to the eagles' mobility. The Meso-American civilisations are already powerful in the feudal age, they don't need another bonus.
 

AustriaClemensor

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#12
Well most players go for a drush most of the times, if they see u going forward they will simply add some militia more which will repell your attack pretty easily and slow you down. Inca would be my only real option for this kind of forward because of their boni. Plus eagles are countered by walls and lose 1v1 against a normal scout in Feudal archers. Mass archer comment was more in regard to full feudal wars. Of course you can make it work, but I dont think it is nearly as overpowered as some seem to suggest, just gives meso civs another option in feudal and might encourage them to play more in feudal age, rather than drush fc.
 

IrelandOneMillion

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#13
I think the problem with using militia is that the forwarding player doesn't have to make eagle warriors immediately. Forward wars inevitably end up dominated by trash, so either the defender commits to men-at-arms and has to deal with ever more ranged units or they make trash of their own and get defeated by eagle warriors, which are essentially an anti-trash unit.

When it comes to countering eagle warriors in the feudal age, walls only counter eagle warriors to the extent that walls counter any other unit. In open combat, eagle warriors may die to scouts, but they are cheaper and nowhere near as food intensive. On top of that, the main challenge that skirmishers have against archers and scouts is that as soon as your covering spearmen are dead, the scouts will mop up the skirmishers. Eagle warriors provide very good screening cover for both spearmen and skirmishers, so they can't be picked off in the same way spearmen can. All of this paragraph is before we take into account the Meso-American economic bonuses, which makes all this a lot easier for them to do.

I don't think it's overpowered in the same way that I don't think the Age of Conquerors civilisations are overpowered, however it makes the drush fast castle option even easier, because you have a quick means of defending from early feudal age attacks, and you can exert extra pressure with another couple of eagle warriors once you reach the feudal age, if you desire. If HD had a competitive 1v1 scene, I would expect it to be even more likely to be just Aztecs.
 

AustriaClemensor

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#14
I think the problem with using militia is that the forwarding player doesn't have to make eagle warriors immediately.
Your are correct, the forwarding player doesnt have to make eagles immediately, but that doesnt matter, a drush as a common go to still exists. It's not like u start making militia to counter eagles, in my example you have them already, regardless of what the opponent does. Plus to be effective with other units you additionally need to invest in ranges and more wood, what you dont really want if you want to end up with eagles (~6 on gold for 2 barracks, you need two because they really create slow and you need a couple of them to be effective)

Forward wars inevitably end up dominated by trash, so either the defender commits to men-at-arms and has to deal with ever more ranged units or they make trash of their own and get defeated by eagle warriors, which are essentially an anti-trash unit.
More or less. In the classic Hun fwd war you are correct, but in meso wars were [email protected]'s are often used to fwd, archer are far mor often seen on the battlefield, plus [email protected]'s counter fwds pretty nicely, even in normal AoC (eg Slam vs Acuo). I see eagles more as a counter to a forward play rather than used on the offensive. So eagles as a reactive instrument, rather than an offensive tool.

When it comes to countering eagle warriors in the feudal age, walls only counter eagle warriors to the extent that walls counter any other unit.
Im mostly talking about quick walls, which counter all melee units, thats not true for ranged units.

In open combat, eagle warriors may die to scouts, but they are cheaper and nowhere near as food intensive. On top of that, the main challenge that skirmishers have against archers and scouts is that as soon as your covering spearmen are dead, the scouts will mop up the skirmishers. Eagle warriors provide very good screening cover for both spearmen and skirmishers, so they can't be picked off in the same way spearmen can.
They are in a sense cheaper, but far less mobile in feudal age (surprisingly slow) and die also very easy to town center/tower fire. I think you are just overestimating the strength of eagle scouts. Plus if we have the scenario that both players went ranges first, the player with scouts availabe will most likely have already a good enough eco to sustain production. You can look at eagle scouts as a weaker, but faster [email protected]'s basically. And its true, apart from standard infantry they dont have a hard counter, but they don't do aswell against ranged units (excluding trash) as you might think. They only way I see it work (meaning giving this kind of opening an edge over normal forwards) is to totally cut your opponent off gold.
All of this paragraph is before we take into account the Meso-American economic bonuses, which makes all this a lot easier for them to do.
Yup but thats true for any other strategy, so why should I go eagles if the other options just seem better?

I don't think it's overpowered in the same way that I don't think the Age of Conquerors civilisations are overpowered, however it makes the drush fast castle option even easier, because you have a quick means of defending from early feudal age attacks, and you can exert extra pressure with another couple of eagle warriors once you reach the feudal age, if you desire. If HD had a competitive 1v1 scene, I would expect it to be even more likely to be just Aztecs.
No it doesnt, it is 60! gold for one eagle scout. most of the times when going FC you are already short on gold so I cant really see that working out in short terms (meaning defending efficiently and still going up). I think they were just added to give meso civs a response to full skirms and to open more options in feudal age.
 

IrelandOneMillion

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#15
Your are correct, the forwarding player doesnt have to make eagles immediately, but that doesnt matter, a drush as a common go to still exists. It's not like u start making militia to counter eagles, in my example you have them already, regardless of what the opponent does. Plus to be effective with other units you additionally need to invest in ranges and more wood, what you dont really want if you want to end up with eagles (~6 on gold for 2 barracks, you need two because they really create slow and you need a couple of them to be effective)
I would say that a more plausible way for that to play out would be that the forwarding player would drush into a forward. If you watch old recordings of Funito, one of the big forward players, he used to do straight forwards. Over time however, he started drushing into forwards a lot more often. Also, my suggestion wasn't a forward into eagle warriors, but rather do a standard barracks and archery range and supplement skirmishers with eagle warriors (with maybe a spearman done first to deter scouts). Most of the time, your barracks will be idle because you'll only make a couple of spearmen and focus on massing skirmishers, so it can easily be done within the current forward framework.

More or less. In the classic Hun fwd war you are correct, but in meso wars were [email protected]'s are often used to fwd, archer are far mor often seen on the battlefield, plus [email protected]'s counter fwds pretty nicely, even in normal AoC (eg Slam vs Acuo). I see eagles more as a counter to a forward play rather than used on the offensive. So eagles as a reactive instrument, rather than an offensive tool.
I am focusing on Meso-American civilisations forwarding non-Meso-American civilisations, as that is when one player has eagle warriors and the other one doesn't. As for men-at-arms, I would say they're only truly a counter to trash when they're Celtic. Otherwise, the cheapness and mobility of trash is a significant problem. Once again, once the initial men-at-arms power spike is over, eagle warriors become more viable.

Im mostly talking about quick walls, which counter all melee units, thats not true for ranged units.
Quick walls are a good measure, but they do prevent that resource centre from receiving more villagers. That's the main caveat for walling woodlines to protect from scout rushes. Eagles have the mobility of scouts, but not the ability to be countered by a spearman.

They are in a sense cheaper, but far less mobile in feudal age (surprisingly slow) and die also very easy to town center/tower fire. I think you are just overestimating the strength of eagle scouts. Plus if we have the scenario that both players went ranges first, the player with scouts availabe will most likely have already a good enough eco to sustain production. You can look at eagle scouts as a weaker, but faster [email protected]'s basically. And its true, apart from standard infantry they dont have a hard counter, but they don't do aswell against ranged units (excluding trash) as you might think. They only way I see it work (meaning giving this kind of opening an edge over normal forwards) is to totally cut your opponent off gold.
Yes, it is indeed scouts, I'm just so used to calling them eagle warriors. They may have only four attack, but they still have two projectile armour, meaning they can tank a lot of arrows. I wouldn't advocate ploughing them straight into a group of archers, but even if it's just two groups of archers (especially Maya archers), they can take so much of the sting out of the other group of archers. By all means, the other player can produce scouts, but spearmen are much more likely to survive when they're among cheap eagle warriors. It's like when some players put their skirmishers in front of their archers because it screens them from the enemy's arrows.

Yup but thats true for any other strategy, so why should I go eagles if the other options just seem better?
Ultimately, they make the Meso-American civilisations even more versatile and difficult to counter.

No it doesnt, it is 60! gold for one eagle scout. most of the times when going FC you are already short on gold so I cant really see that working out in short terms (meaning defending efficiently and still going up). I think they were just added to give meso civs a response to full skirms and to open more options in feudal age.
50 gold, surely? Going into archers (skirmishers as well, if necessary) is one of the options you have available to you to counter a Meso-American civilisation attempting a fast castle, and this just gives them another way to stop that (as it's before you have a mass of archers). It'll delay their castle age time, but they'll still be up soon after.

By the way, I just know you're going to do an eagle warrior forward at some point, if your Indian antics on stream are anything to go by!
 

UnknownAguruchi

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#16
I just want to add that playing Incas (fav civ) I always felt 'cheated' :x when it came to feudal age - lack of scouts hurts a lot but you only realize it w/ mesos. It's not only restraining in terms of options, it's also empowering for the guy across not having to fear/deal w/ scout rush. In short, the enemy knows your -limited- options and reacts better.
50g+20f is hardly different from scouts' 80f. Not to mention the need for a mining camp+more micro, + food is generally useful but gold not as much in feud.
And if you drush (most do anyway) just upgrade to [email protected], if you don't, just wall. Very easy to deal w/ eagle scouts if you just throw up some walls. It's not like archers.

In sum: certainly not OP and a welcome change.
 

IrelandOneMillion

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#17
Actually, the cost difference is noticeable. Because gold gathers faster than food and doesn't require the investment of wood in farms, eagle warriors are a much lighter burden on your economy. Per villager-second, they're about 20-25% cheaper, so their castle time won't be delayed. That's why elite eagle warriors are lethal in the early imperial age: they can be massed much more easily than light cavalry.

The problem is not with your opponent just making eagle warriors. It's with the fact that they can also make archers to counter men-at-arms, and skirmishers will find it more difficult to take those archers out because the eagle warriors will attract a lot of the fire and naturally counter them anyway. Whatever limit there is to the benefits this brings to the Incas, for the Aztecs and the Maya, it's just disgusting.
 

United Statespatao

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#19
"no eagle forward sucks, tested it already, they die to mass archers still and produce slowly" Kappa :lol:

"tested it already" in AoE2 is pretty funny sounding given that there are so many subtle variations and different situations. Reminds me of when Jay claims to have completed Football Manager in the Inbetweeners https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TWYcQ8tAKg
 

GermanynC_Andorin

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#21

IrelandOneMillion

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#23
Well, it looks like we've had a couple of years of competitive play and balance changes since this thread started. Let's review, shall we?

It's clear that HD intended more use of eagles, especially with the eagle scout and upgrade to eagle warrior. This has created some new problems, because eagle warriors were already a very strong unit on arena. Aztecs are now even stronger on arena than they were in The Conquerors (+50 gold on a map where you normally don't do loom until later), so for a one-off cost, they get a tankier version of what they used to have and do one extra bonus damage against cavalry (+3 against +2). Combine that with monk resistance and you have a unit that is disgustingly cost-efficient for what it is.

So the meta has changed: eagle scout wars in the feudal age are a part of the game now and so are eagle warriors in the castle age on maps other than arena. I think that if this is to be maintained as a tenable development, eagle warriors can no longer cost 20 food and 50 gold. They cannot remain cheaper and faster than their counter (60 food and 20 gold for swordsmen) while also having a castle age upgrade with 0/3 armour (taking 2 damage from crossbowmen), all the while being an anti-monk unit. I think a fairer cost would be 30 food and 50 gold because then their cost would be on a par with swordsmen and would reflect their increased strength in the expansions.
 

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