AOE-II ECL Map Pack | Discussion

Unknownmogers87

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Feb 26, 2017
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#1
nit: Europe East logo is displayed instead of East Asia

nit2: Europe West logo seems to be too British. That's an English flag, right?
 

Pakistansmzimran

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Sep 9, 2016
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#4
ECL_Arena has been replaced with ECL_Arina.

Please download the updated mappack to get the new map.
This is disappointing, tower rush adds one additional strategy to Arena. If we have to remove the viability of any strategy from Arena, I'm sure more people will agree on it being the removal of mindless monk wars.

Tower rush in general is a strong strategy in the current meta, not only this map. Its surprising why it has to be nerfed as a strat on one map only. If anything, trush on Arena makes for a refreshing viewer experience rather than the other two dominant strategies:
(I) FC into 3 or 4 tc boom and collect relics
(II) Monk wars with "You convert one monk, I convert it back"

As @NigelSlack said,
"We are now making map to compensate disabilities..."
 

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#5
This is disappointing, tower rush adds one additional strategy to Arena. If we have to remove the viability of any strategy from Arena, I'm sure more people will agree on it being the removal of mindless monk wars.

Tower rush in general is a strong strategy in the current meta, not only this map. Its surprising why it has to be nerfed as a strat on one map only. If anything, trush on Arena makes for a refreshing viewer experience rather than the other two dominant strategies:
(I) FC into 3 or 4 tc boom and collect relics
(II) Monk wars with "You convert one monk, I convert it back"

As @NigelSlack said,
"We are now making map to compensate disabilities..."
You are 100% wrong with that statement. It doesn't add an additional strategy to arena. It changes arena to 1 strategy only. If you have 2 stones forward, you are insta gg.
 

Unknownmogers87

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Feb 26, 2017
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#6
ECL_Arena has been replaced with ECL_Arina.
I'm also disappointed with this rushed decision. AFAIK, there was only one 1v1 Arena tournament with WK. It's not clear how TG would turn out.

Not using the standard map is trying to avoid a potential problem, without first proving its existence. This also prevents providing more feedback to the game developers about the balance of walls and towers both in 1v1 and TGs.
I know that some people complained about the standard Arena, but replacing the map like this just feels a very rushed decision. It's not even clear to me that most people prefer this, and there will be a need in every 'Arina' game to explain to casual players/viewers that this is not the standard Arena map.
 

Pakistansmzimran

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Sep 9, 2016
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#7
You are 100% wrong with that statement. It doesn't add an additional strategy to arena. It changes arena to 1 strategy only. If you have 2 stones forward, you are insta gg.
Changes to 1 strategy only, meaning the entire MoA5 tournament had trush and nothing else?

Tower rush is a risky strategy, and if some one can pull up the stats for the tourney to see how many games were tower rush and how many were won by the trushing guy, we might be able to see how 100% wrong my statement was.
 

Franceedie

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May 9, 2013
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#8
Why bring back the 1800hp wall ? What are the reason many want this (including viper, Miguel, me melkor Stefan metal, most arena expert).

All the reasons I can find:

The map arena is and was played for the purpose of playing game where you FC, same as you play nomad to have a non tc start, now if nomad because of a change it’s played differently and you have already a tc, or if in LN you have enough wood to make a tc directly, it’s not ln anymore. If tomorrow arabia is to be played just fc you won’t call it arabia anymore but something else.

So maybe (I believe), admins/escape wanted by put Arena as a sett map, to see fast castle game, maybe boom, maybe monk rush, maybe siege rush, maybe uu rush, maybe FI, but not trush game (even if It would represent 50% of games), if they wanted to see trush they would probably let it 900hp OR even better change the map to arabia or some custom map that it’s trush 90% (donut or idk which map name even boa had it)

/!\ Many ppl does enjoy watch or play trush on arena, and that’s is fine, but like said above maybe organisator don’t want to see it because it’s kill the arena map purpose.

Same as there is sling nerf mod, because they don’t want to see sling in all games.


Now let’s talk about the trush on arena itself and not how arena should be played :
(Supposing playing feudal war in arena is normal and fine)

-it’s even more powerful than in arabia because:

Arena being a walled map you play it fc, so you up late feudal and without loom, which mean you are way more vulnerable than you are in arabia where you up feudal fast all games or drush. Yes you are stone walled, but 900hp one are super fast to break that he can get in before you can even get loom.

If you are lucky you might have done a BO where you up with pop 25 or 26 and will have enough time to get loom in time, if you are lucky you might have one stone that is not vulnerable, so you might be able to defend the trush, even if you do, your economy will be gged and you won’t be able to fc anymore, then in this situation you won’t be able to kill his towers until castle age, so until castle age you have 0% map control, and maybe even in castle age you won’t get the map control if he decide to keep the pressure, OR if he decides to free boom and you wou decide to kill towers and take map control, you will be totally outboomed.

Now I see you coming « try to see if he trush and go up fast ur self, gne gne »
We are in dark age, how to know if he is trushing ? Your scout has low visuality you can’t see much, you won’t know if he is trushing until you see his score drop, which mean:
1- you have to be focused on his score all the time
2- your build order is totally broke just because you check if he might trush or not, since you know if he trush arround 7:30/8:00, all ur build order before it is to go fast castle, then you see he up(if u see his score down), you must change everything to try go faster possible, (which obviously even if u see he up 21pop since u didn’t do bo to go fast feudal u won’t be able to go feudal any time too soon), and then u get feudal it’s the same scenario as said above where you fight tower etc don’t have map control .. And what if you think he trush but he doesn’t ? With many civ you can up pop 23 to 25 no loom and go for fc, which could be the same time loomed to go trush. Instant gg ???

Now about TG, trush is even more toxic. Why ? (Been playing a lot tg arena, with the 900hp wall was still used a lot before arina)

Flank trush is as strong as in 1v1, he can bring you down with him even if he is 1900 and you 2400, what I mean ?
I mean If you want to defend a trush and not die, at best if you are lucky and have stones safe, you are out of the game like him, your economy will be down like his, compared to others of the game who could fc normally, you can have 1900 bringing in hell with him while you are the best player of ur team and is supposed to carry.

The trusher can also annoy pocket and tower him, also since you are open, what if enemy pocket double you? You are gg ? So you might ask ur pocket to make army in case their pocket would double and not boom but if he boom u and ur pocket are already way behind.



I hope you take some back, and read and try to understand every aspect and not just « gne gne they don’t want meta change gne gne trush is fun », if ppl I named above shared their opinion about it and are against it there is a reason, ppl like viper Miguel Stefan me melkor etc share same opinion there is a reason.

Ofc there is even arena player who enjoy trush in arena and think it’s a good thing, but like I said
1) is it legit to have arena to be played in feudal fight ? Do sponsor/players want it this way
2)trush is overpowered
 

Unknownmogers87

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Feb 26, 2017
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#9
Edie, I already understood your point of view and why you prefer 'Arina'. I'd agree with your points if this was a Arena tournament, but it isn't.

I stand by my opinion. Besides the points made above, let me also say that this is not a huge deal - Arena is only 1 map used in only 1 out of 7 stages of ECL. Also because of this, I don't see any problem with having one map like this that might have lots of uncertainty or variance, as you mention, where players take risks that will make them be way ahead or behind depending on the opponents choices.

I see a lot more value in having top level Arena 1v1 and TG games with standard balance, in which the TG would be something new. These can be fed to the Forgotten Empires team to pressure prioritizing changing standard walls hp and/or towers if needed.
 

AustraliaSocksyy

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#11
I cant believe some people actually love seeing players suffer trying to play against tower rush and always having the threat of whether or not opponent will tower rush on arena in the back of the minds.
 

Pakistansmzimran

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Sep 9, 2016
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#12
Its amazing how some players are afraid to experiment and adapt. How can one say a map is 'supposed to be played' like one way? The first time that arena was ever played, did the players involved fast castle? Were there any in game map instructions telling them to go FC ?

No, it happened over time. People experimented and found the most optimal way of playing on the map. This is how the meta develops.

When a new strategy is introduced into the game, it is a refreshing thing. The meta has to evolve to allow and counter any new strategy that seems OP. This takes time, how much time was this strategy on arena given to be played out? One 1v1 tournament and 0 team game tournaments.

Wololo Kingdoms has brought new life to this game, new strats are being developed and then the balance adjusted to nerf overpowered strategies and buff the underpowered ones.
There are many examples:

- In an early Escape Gaming tournament last year, the strength of the fireships was discovered to be super powerful. Many players who still stuck on directly moving to galleys suffered in those escape tourneys. The fireships were then slightly nerfed to still allow massed galleys to do well. With this change, the better strat became to start with fire ships but then move to galleys with fletching. Again, there were players in some of the later Escape tournaments who stuck to fire ships too late and suffered when the opponent massed galleys took our fires as well as harrassed villagers from the shoreline.

- The landing with condotierros was discovered as a great finishing strat in a similar time frame. When the strategy became too OP, the condotierros were nerfed and subsequently the finisher blow of condo landing was nerfed.

- Feudal eagles were introduced but not many people used them until about 8-10 months into the first Escape tournament. I think it was Daut who first experimented with massing feudal eagles, using the market to go castle age and completely dominate the opponent. The strat became popular and was then subsequently nerfed by buffing the militia line.

- Tower rush is an OP strat, especially with Koreans. I am pretty sure that the developers have noticed that in the current meta and a soon to come patch will nerf it.

Now, what happened with the trush on Arena is that one tournament - MoA5, Vinchester introduced a new strategy which looked super strong. Instead of allowing time for the meta to develop, with people trying to adapt, what is the solution ? Make a new map altogether.

This seems inconsistent with trusting the developers to introduce balance changes to fix any 'broken' strategies. For a dedicated tournament on the map, it is fine if the Arena community agrees to have this new map. For a larger tournament like ECL, why change it based on the opinion of a few people who have trouble adapting or feel lazy to do so.
 

Franceedie

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May 9, 2013
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#13
No one force you to play arena with 1800 hp wall, you can play arena 900hp version develop new meta on it, you can even suggest the admins to change the map to Palisade Arena, if its what they want to be played they will change it.

I dont understand why you so forcing about it , tournament host decided to make it back to 1800 hp because its how THEY want it to be played and not with some trush or others meta, same as they put sling nerf because they dont want see that meta being played to much.
 

AustriaJuvenal

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May 22, 2017
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#14
yes, i guess a poll could give an answer, if arena or arina is preferred by the community and the players, but i and i guess most others who followed MoA5 got annoyed by the high amount of tower rushes throughout the tournament. i still think most people feel similar about it.
 

Pakistansmzimran

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Sep 9, 2016
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#15
you can even suggest the admins to change the map to Palisade Arena, if its what they want to be played they will change it.
That is exactly what I was doing with my original post in this thread. Suggesting the admins to reconsider using the original Arena map as they had it in the first place before they changed it to Arina.
 

AustriaJuvenal

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May 22, 2017
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#16
That is exactly what I was doing with my original post in this thread. Suggesting the admins to reconsider using the original Arena map as they had it in the first place before they changed it to Arina.
yes, i guess a poll could give an answer, if arena or arina is preferred by the community and the players, but i and i guess most others who followed MoA5 got annoyed by the high amount of tower rushes throughout the tournament. i still think most people feel similar about it.
 

GermanyAthasos

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Jul 8, 2017
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#17
I totally disagree with changes to the vanilla game for a tournament that is supposed to promote this game and bring new people into it.
Just think about it, people start to play this game and it is different in the tournament?
What impression does that give?

I do understand all the reasoning for nerfing sling or boosting walls in arena.
Still I really think there needs to be way more creativity. Vinch comes up with the trush and perfects it with 5 archers included etc.
So how to counter that?
I'm not a pro and indeed with two front stone it looks bad, but maybe you have to act before the towers go up? just like in arabia? battle it down with your wills, go for fast scouts with mongols or magyars or so?
And considering sling nerf.
Do we know at least a little bit how it affects 3v3 or 2v2? We know how it works for 4v4 aoc, that's all. And those changes were done to aoc after many many years of meta development.
I am very sceptical a modded game version is the right approach to introduce this game to many new people.
Also as it was said before AoC arena was all about FC, well seems like HD arena isn't anymore, but why do you want to change that if it is not an all arena tournament?
 
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IrelandTimotheus_

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#18
The real question is: why would ANYONE, want to create more scenerios where the best strategy is to trush. It is the most boring thing to play/play against and it is really annoying when the map dictates you have to trush, otherwise you will be trushed and insta gg. With regard to 900 HP, I don't think anyone of the arena players would have any issue with it when towers are an appropriate strength/balanced (eg, cost 75 wood instead so you can't have 3 lumberjacks and send 10 villagers forward to build 1235 towers)
 

BelgiumBeinchisme

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#19
I totally disagree with changes to the vanilla game for a tournament that is supposed to promote this game and bring new people into it.
Just think about it, people start to play this game and it is different in the tournament?
What impression does that give?
That's why we have great casters for this tournament, that will explain to the hopefully large audience what is happening and why. Also, it gives them an angle to explain about AoEZone and the drama happening there :D:D

Finally, I don't think it's a problem if the meta shown in a tournament is not directly applicable to new players (e.g. on HD). I am a relatively new player, and I can't apply the meta as it is shown by the pro's , because it's too difficult anyway ...
 

Australiarobo

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#20
As a compromise I am considering replacing walls entirely with a line of watch towers surrounding each players base. This achieves 2 things. 1 preempts the trush by already building towers and 2 defends a player until castle/imperial age.

It shall be called towerena, thoughts?

Kappa
 
Oct 6, 2017
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#21
As a compromise I am considering replacing walls entirely with a line of watch towers surrounding each players base. This achieves 2 things. 1 preempts the trush by already building towers and 2 defends a player until castle/imperial age.

It shall be called towerena, thoughts?

Kappa
Sounds awesome. That way even your forward resources will be protected. No reason to cry about that either.
 

Pakistansmzimran

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Sep 9, 2016
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#22
The real question is: why would ANYONE, want to create more scenerios where the best strategy is to trush. It is the most boring thing to play/play against and it is really annoying when the map dictates you have to trush, otherwise you will be trushed and insta gg. With regard to 900 HP, I don't think anyone of the arena players would have any issue with it when towers are an appropriate strength/balanced (eg, cost 75 wood instead so you can't have 3 lumberjacks and send 10 villagers forward to build 1235 towers)
How can you say it is the best strategy? If so, surely the top performing players in that tournament would have used trush to breeze through to the final stages.

The top three players in MoA5 were Viper, Tatoh and Stark. How many games did they trush and how many games did they win with trush ?

This seems like an over reaction to trushing without looking at actual number of instances it was used and how effectively it was used.
 

Pakistansmzimran

Active Member
Sep 9, 2016
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#23
As a compromise I am considering replacing walls entirely with a line of watch towers surrounding each players base. This achieves 2 things. 1 preempts the trush by already building towers and 2 defends a player until castle/imperial age.

It shall be called towerena, thoughts?

Kappa
Its called Fortress, it already exists. Come up with something original
Kappa
 

United KingdomCicero

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Jul 9, 2017
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#24
The ECL_Arena appeared to be based on the NC17 version, for which the main changes were removing the often unfair extra golds/stones (and forage bushes), and increasing the size of all the secondary and tertiary gold/stone piles from four to five tiles. It also made other changes - including changing the min/max distances of resources. ECL_Arina, however, appears to be based on 'vanilla' Arena.
Just pointing this out :smile:
 

Unknownmogers87

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Feb 26, 2017
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#25
The balance changes are welcome, but seem too hiden in a 'Map Pack' thread. They're important enough to deserve a separate pinned post to alert everyone to it (although I assume teams were already informed).
 

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