ECL - Map Contest Winners [East Asia]

SpainPoxo

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Oct 27, 2012
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#51
man @teutonic_tanks you have to consider not only the .rms itself, and how it is just a copy paste from the original TI, but also the ideas behind the map, a TI with shallows between teams. It clearly changes the whole mechanics of the map and makes it completely different, now the teams will have to risk going on water because they may get landed, because walking through a long shallow to find a wall is never risky and seems like a 100% fair strat unless you are chinese.

Ok, after some rant let's write down some true words:

TI2.0, this is wrong, makes me wonder if it was picked because someone said "hey let's have water and see how it's played on WK". Water on WK is boring, even more than on AoC, prepare yourself for games ending when the map runs out of wood, and that's going to be standard on this map with tourney games between high level players.

Takeshima, to me this map seems like let's pick ideas from other cool maps and mix it together (this is original content, no copy, no sarcasm here), might be good, but I expect it to be messy and from the players POV not good. Let me explain my opnion:
- It starts like decentring, and that map was cool
- It has small lakes and I bet those have fish on them, and what is a map now if you can't abuse the shore fish
- It has water, big but not huge, but it has shallows, so it's not pure water play (but mas like rivers, montains or the ancient lake with shallows are full water play at some point)
I don't like this map either, I don't know what Chrazini was trying to acomplish but messing with the players minds, I don't think teams will be able to make a clear strat on it, since the posibilities are just too many. But at least is original and not a copy paste.
 

GermanyMichaerbse

Well-Known Member
Oct 14, 2017
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#53
I don't truly understand how that weakens my position. It doesn't take a long time to create your desired map if you already have a design in mind, especially not if you're an expert like Zetnus. Two people writing separate cookbooks may include the same dishes and outcomes, but the way they do it is their own and differ slightly from each other, making it their own.
1) Sticking to the example of standard resource distribution: This is some standard part from the Arabia map script including TC, vills, scout, relics, regicide stuff and standard player resources:
Code:
<OBJECTS_GENERATION>

create_object TOWN_CENTER
{
  set_place_for_every_player
  group_placement_radius     18
  min_distance_to_players    0
  max_distance_to_players    0
}

create_object VILLAGER
{
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players       6
  max_distance_to_players       6
}

create_object SCOUT
{
  number_of_objects             1
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players       7
  max_distance_to_players       9
}

if LUDIKRIS_MAP
create_object RELIC
{
   number_of_objects            250
   min_distance_to_players     25
   temp_min_distance_group_placement 110
}
else
create_object RELIC
{
   number_of_objects            5
   min_distance_to_players     25
   temp_min_distance_group_placement 20
}
endif


if REGICIDE
create_object VILLAGER
{
  number_of_objects             7
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players       6
  max_distance_to_players       6
}

create_object KING
{
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players       6
  max_distance_to_players       6
}

create_object CASTLE
{
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    10
  max_distance_to_players    10
}

endif

/* NEAR FORAGE */

create_object FORAGE
{
  number_of_objects          6
  group_placement_radius     3
  set_tight_grouping
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    10
  max_distance_to_players    12
  min_distance_group_placement  6
}

/* NEAR GOLD */

create_object GOLD
{
  number_of_objects          7
  group_placement_radius     3
  set_tight_grouping
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    12
  max_distance_to_players    16
  min_distance_group_placement  7
  max_distance_to_other_zones  7
}

/* MEDIUM GOLD */

create_object GOLD
{
  number_of_objects          4
  group_placement_radius     3
  set_tight_grouping
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    18
  max_distance_to_players    26
  min_distance_group_placement  7
  max_distance_to_other_zones  7
}

/* FAR GOLD */

create_object GOLD
{
  number_of_objects          4
  group_placement_radius     3
  set_tight_grouping
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    25
  max_distance_to_players    35
  min_distance_group_placement  7
  max_distance_to_other_zones  7
}

/* NEAR STONE */

create_object STONE
{
  number_of_objects          5
  group_placement_radius     2
  set_tight_grouping
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    14
  max_distance_to_players    18
  min_distance_group_placement  7
  max_distance_to_other_zones  7
}

/* FAR STONE */

create_object STONE
{
  number_of_objects          4
  group_placement_radius     2
  set_tight_grouping
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    20
  max_distance_to_players    26
  min_distance_group_placement  7
  max_distance_to_other_zones  7
}

create_object SHEEP
{
   number_of_objects 4
   set_loose_grouping
   set_gaia_object_only
   set_place_for_every_player
   min_distance_to_players    9
   max_distance_to_players    11
}
create_object SHEEP
{
   number_of_objects 2
   number_of_groups  2
   set_loose_grouping
   set_gaia_object_only
   set_place_for_every_player
   min_distance_to_players    14
   max_distance_to_players    30
}

create_object DEER
{
start_random
percent_chance 50
  number_of_objects          4
percent_chance 50
  number_of_objects          3
end_random
  group_placement_radius     3
  set_loose_grouping
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
start_random
percent_chance 50
  min_distance_to_players    14
  max_distance_to_players    22
percent_chance 50
  min_distance_to_players    23
  max_distance_to_players    30
end_random
}

create_object BOAR
{
  number_of_objects          1
  set_loose_grouping
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    16
  max_distance_to_players    22
}

create_object BOAR
{
  number_of_objects          1
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    16
  max_distance_to_players    22
}

create_object WOLF
{
  number_of_objects          2
  set_gaia_object_only
  set_place_for_every_player
  min_distance_to_players    30
  max_distance_to_players    40
}
These are >200 lines of code. While some maps will ofc change these parts completely, a lot of maps will be based on this as well, simply because it has somewhat been established as a standard. No matter how good you are at map scripting, re-creating this will take more time than copying (and maybe changing a few numbers).

2) Being nit-picky about the "plagiarism" accusation: In a scholarly work, if you have the same thought as someone else and re-write the same sentence (even if leaving out one word or using different punctuation) it could still be plagiarism. Re-writing or copy-pasting is not the decisive factor. The decisive factor is whether something is common sense or an actual intellectual achievement (and in the latter case whether you have marked it accordingly). E.g. re-using the standard resource distribution seems to be rather common sense to me.

On a second note - Rehydration is written from scratch without a single line of code copied from Arabia or taken from other creators.
This is impressive but for the copy-paste argument Rehydration is not a good example. The map changes pretty much all aspects of a standard map - which is of course totally fine but not required in order to be considered for a map making contest imo.

I think you have no idea about how mapmaking usually works. People don't simply mass copy codes, but come up with own creative stuff and even by simply changing the design of a map, without changing it's charakter, it changes a LOT of lines and not only a few. Nobody ever copies like the whole <Terrian Generation> or <Object Generation> of a map.
Well, first of all "Nobody ever copies" is obviously wrong, see example. ;D
Second of all, this approach is of course totally fine but that doesn't mean that everything else has to be forbidden.
 
Likes: atmankulkarni
Jul 2, 2018
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#54
Congrats to both!

It's quite common to have these kind of "issues" in contests. In traditional art (yes, I believe RMScripting is some kind of art) this happens all the time. But it makes mostly sense to have this map as a winner; small improvements are usually liked best by the general audience: A well tested map with a minor adjustment.

Chrazini's map looks very cool as well. Looking forward to test it out! (Also I can vouch for him being very liberal with stealing his code)

Also if any mappers want to explicitly share their work for remixing (modifications) I recommend this adding to your source file: https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/ - Add attribution for requesting credit. You'll see this a lot in the open art communities.
 
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Likes: Michaerbse

United KingdomNick_

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#58
Because then you run the risk of having captains voting for maps that fit their team’s style the best and not necessarily for the best/most creative ones.

In general, I think we shouldn’t give players toooo much deciding power. If it were up to some, players would decide settings, seeds, maps, balance changes, etc etc. They are biased towards their level of play and games played at the expert level are less than 1% of the totality of games.
Players should obviously have a say in all those things, but they should not be the only ones deciding in my opinion.
A lot of these new maps may look the business and be the 'most creative' but the best maps in my opinion are maps that look normal, ordinary, and capable of promoting many game styles. Instead of being flashy and gimmicky (enabling demoing of land units across a marsh/sand connection, yawn) do some research into the areas and come up with something simple YET challenging.

Just to add East Asia is mainly a large LAND mass, and yet the two map winners are based on connected islands??? These maps seem like they are more suited to Southeast Asia that has a large amount of island chains.
 

Nepalarchxeon

Well-Known Member
Jan 6, 2014
193
362
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#59
One solution could be to separate the chosen map from the winner of map contest. Most original map vs most likely to be selected by the players to play.
As an added bonus, most original map gets to listen to aM teamspeak as they play that Map. :wink:
 

FranceTarsiz

Longswordman
Feb 27, 2017
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#60
Maps are judged based on both originality and how competitive they are. It is not in the interest of ECL to select a map that is so original it becomes a different game altogether, as it wouldn't be interesting for the experts to play it and not enjoyable for most viewers to watch that.
 

Germanydodageka

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Feb 13, 2018
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#61
Just to add East Asia is mainly a large LAND mass, and yet the two map winners are based on connected islands??? These maps seem like they are more suited to Southeast Asia that has a large amount of island chains.
You still have Japan, Taiwan, and a lot of water around there. Also, historically, the invasion of the mongol into China was eventually achieved by definiting China in a naval battle, so some water seems appropriate there.
I rather think that they wanted some water in there as well (similar to how there is some land in mostly water-based south east asia) to make it not too one-sided
 

GermanyKing_Marv

Longswordman
May 27, 2016
573
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Germany
#62
Ah you mean the CM mapcontest where the winner was one of the admin team 11


Immagine someone copied some entry from henk/chrazini/me, added a boar and removed 2 sheep for everyone and then won it. This is pretty much the case we have here. Or maybe an even better example: immagine someone copies a text from wikipedia, changes like 10 words, says it's original content made by himself and wins some contest with it.
This wasnt a work of hours, rather of minutes.
Happens every day in thousand of times in schools and universities :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
 
Oct 1, 2018
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#63
Happens every day in thousand of times in schools and universities :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
woah woah woah, hold on there buddy, are you being so bold as to imply that none of us are conduits of spontaneous creativity?! But rather, all of the words, and ideas, and designs, and scripting programs we 'create', are just slight variations on things that already exist? Well man, that's enough existential dread for one day! Better pack it in and get back to drooling at my computer screen while I accidentally run my scout into my opponents town center for the 2,976th time!
 

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