ECL - Map Contest Winners [East Asia]

Austriateutonic_tanks

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#26
Just to clarify: prv_limb did indeed make CM_Tombolo, the map that Jupe and Flu mentioned, but he wasn't involved in deciding the winner of the map contest whatsoever and he donated all the money he won to the prizepool.
nvm then i confused it with a mapcontest afterwards, where robo's hungergames won. RIGGED
 

SwedenAlgernonR

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#27
I think this discussion is pretty stupid tbh.
Its up to the judges to decide who created the best fit for the contest so putting the blame on a mapmaker is just wrong in so many ways - its not Zetnus' "fault" he gets picked for winning and he certainly shouldnt have to type up a post defending his winning submission...

You can have any opinions about the winning submissions and maybe you would have picked someone else to win - but is there any need to voice that here? I thought this map contest aimed at shining some light on the map making community and spreading some love that direction, while getting some great new maps for the ECL. Its supposed to be a positive thing. I dont get why someone who alrdy won a map contest for an earlier event feel the need to voice this discontent and also accuse the appointed winner of plagiarism? Its just not right. (Its not right, in the sense that its disrespectful, its also not right in the in the sense that its not correct).

For me personally, I look forward to seeing Team Causeways in action and I think its a simple, but cool twist. In contrast to some other maps, hopefully it wont just get banned at sight and will see play in the tournament.

I think we have to understand that winning a map contest where the price is for the map to be played in the biggest current tournament in the game (and yes, thats what all the hype is about - not some paypal transfer) the map will first and foremost be balanced and playable at the highest level. The meta shouldnt be too obvious, the map generations shouldnt be too inconsistent, the flank/pocket differences shouldnt be too big etc. Creativity and uniqueness are important things, yes - but the most important thing is playability.

And I think Team Causeways is superior to all other submissions that I went through in the East Asia event, those things considered.

Can't we just applaud both entries instead? Well, I will anyway. Gj both.
 
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#29
Some form of plagiarism is unavoidable, I copy segments of resources spawning all the time: it gives the map a familiar structure, which is pleasant to play (I'm talking about distance of boars to TC, amount of gold piles, distance of wood to TC etc, but also amount of woodlines, size of islands...)

I understand the decision to choose a map that fits well in the tournament, the decision is probably based on:
- what creates good (team)games?
- what has a unique strategy aspect, but yet is not too weird and hard to adapt to for the players?
- what kind of map fits the stage or complements the already existing map pool

However, in a contest with maps from ambitious members of the community, I would prefer to see that the innovative maps would get more recognition. Those might not be the most usefull map for the tournament, but awarding odd maps with a lot of effort put into them seems more fitting to me, to promote innovate ideas and reward hard working individuals.

The system of having a 1st and 2nd place would allow the organisation of the ECL to use the more conventional 2nd place map for the tournament.

Besides, the map from this contest is only one of the maps that are in the mappool. The other maps from the map pool can be conventional, and I think a map from a contest should be special in a way. Look at the memorable maps that won map contests in the past: Bedouins, El Dorado, Chaos Pit, Houseboat... All of them are very unconventional (altough on a few of those a distinct meta has developed, and we have adapted to them).

Just my opinion, but yea... this is the opinion from a person who also likes to make maps where units explode and then turn into a pile of gold :laugh:
 

FranceTriRem

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#30
Just my two cents, I do not consider copying from the standard maps plagiarism. Unoriginal, sure, but to me standard maps are a template on which you can build on. To me the entry is perfectly fine and valid.

Whether it deserves to win is up to the judges and how much they value originality, but that's another debate.

But that's just my opinion, I'm neither admin nor judge.
 
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DenmarkChrazini

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#31
I see a lot of opinions in this thread, and while that's great, that's simply not the issue with the first place submission. Any person can go back and look at the original Team Islands script and see that every line of code, every tab indentation, every attribute value and name is identical to what Zetnus has submitted.
He did in fact copy 90% of the script. That's not using it as a template, that's not "your own work" as clearly stated in the official rules of this contest which many participants have spent numerous hours on.
I feel like this submission violates the most essential rule in the contest.
 
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#33
Okay. I have had a long chat with some other scripters about this. This map is for all intents an purposes Team Islands with connections (as advertised, I might add). Much of it is copied either from Team Islands or from Coastal. I do not deny that.

If the purpose of this contest was not to allow things that are modifications to ES maps but with slight changes, then the judges shouldn't have picked an entry that was clearly advertised as such. I assumed something like this is what ECL players might want to play on, and it seems the judges agreed. I aplogize if I misinterpreted the rules of the contest, but the judges really did know what they were getting when they picked this, so I feel I should not be at fault for my entry having been selected.
 

United StatesT-West

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#35
As for how the maps were judged: Nadya, robo, and myself rated all of the maps that were submitted for this round. Team Causeways was chosen, as it had the highest combined score from all of our ratings.

I understand if you have disagreements with the result, and I also felt that we needed to do a better job with the judging---after this round I added two more judges (Ornlu and Tarsiz) to evaluate submissions for the remaining rounds.

The official aoe2 maps may be used as a basis for other maps. There are a few other maps, such as Linear Arabia, that we also accept as valid entries, even though they are certainly based on the Ensemble maps. It would not be acceptable to take someone else's map, put your name on it, and dishonestly claim it was your submission. There was absolutely no attempt to hide that this map is based on Team Islands.

We do want to show off custom maps, which is why we are using both the first and second place maps in some rounds, as we did in the Middle East region and will do with the Southeast Asia region. Of all the other maps we've selected to be played so far, Rift Islands, Sunburn, Dry River, Riverbed, and Eastern Coastline (and a version of Enemy Archipelago that resizes for different player sizes in addition to 4v4), I think we've selected a wide variety of maps that have many different features. There are also many great maps submitted in addition to the ones we've used (I've enjoyed watching Rehydration used in the NAC2 qualifiers), and I hope the community will find some great maps to continue using from the other submissions too.
 

PortugalMaSmOrRa

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#37
Why aren't map contests voted by captains of participating teams? The teams are the ones that have to play some of these ridiculous maps that just promote garbage game play.
Because then you run the risk of having captains voting for maps that fit their team’s style the best and not necessarily for the best/most creative ones.

In general, I think we shouldn’t give players toooo much deciding power. If it were up to some, players would decide settings, seeds, maps, balance changes, etc etc. They are biased towards their level of play and games played at the expert level are less than 1% of the totality of games.
Players should obviously have a say in all those things, but they should not be the only ones deciding in my opinion.
 

United StatesT-West

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#39
Because then you run the risk of having captains voting for maps that fit their team’s style the best and not necessarily for the best/most creative ones.

In general, I think we shouldn’t give players toooo much deciding power. If it were up to some, players would decide settings, seeds, maps, balance changes, etc etc. They are biased towards their level of play and games played at the expert level are less than 1% of the totality of games.
Players should obviously have a say in all those things, but they should not be the only ones deciding in my opinion.
In addition, there were 187 maps submitted in total for all rounds. I doubt it would be feasible for all teams to evaluate these maps. Perhaps a system where judges pick finalists and team captains vote on the top 3 maps for each round could work, but would still have issues with teams picking maps that suite their play-styles, rather than what they think the "best" maps are.
 
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SwedenAlgernonR

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#41
Having team Captains involved in the final pick between say 3 teams could be a nice addition, but overall the current system works fine. Again, isnt it nice that we have all this negativity about something thats just supposed to be a fun thing for the community. Im not sure what the players really feel about the maps featured so far in the tourney - such player feedback would actually be really interesting. Dry River seems to have been well liked, and I dont think that map promotes ”garbage gameplay” at all. The TG meta might be a bit solved sort of, but its very entertaining to both watch and play imo.
 
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Austriateutonic_tanks

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#42
This picture shows the rms-script of team causeways.
- green parts are selfmade: mainly the connection generation in the last 4 pages, that creates the corssings and also roads have been slightly changed
- yellow parts: balance changes t-west adds to every ECL map and some comments (this doesnt affect the rms script)
-red parts: copied stuff: pretty much land generation, terrains, resources and their distribtuion etc., the heartt of each rms-script

Imo this isn't how original content looks like. It's mostly sad for everyone that made own content and discourages everyone new to mapmaking to come up with something creative, but motivates ppl to make stuff like standart arabia with no scout and 4 boars.

passages.jpg
 

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#43
The standard land and water resources are shared by almost all classic ES maps. Thus it follows that players expect said resource distribution and any deviations from it are either a central feature of the map, or a reason not to play it in competitive. Since upwards of 50% of the lines in your average random map script are object generation, all maps which stick to standard resources/objects will be essentially identical in those parts.

I could nitpick your highlighting and say that the resources by map size code isn't copied from ES, but is instead a condensed version, but eh, who cares, since it still generates the expected resources.

I digress though. The map is clearly Team Islands with connections, as advertised. I apologize for saying that the land distribution was different - that was an error on my part, based on an earlier version of the script.
At no point did I try to conceal the nature of this map, or claim that the intention was anything other than to be Team Islands with connections.

When I submitted entries, I went for a selection of modified classic maps, which were all advertised as such in the description, and also some unique maps, but even those come with roughly the standard resources, because that is what players expect.
 

GermanyJineapple

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#44
I wanted to add my own thoughts to this - I think it's best to seperate the questions that have come up regarding this topic.

1. Is this plagiarism? Imo, no. Plagiarism implies that you hide the fact that parts of your work came from somewhere else. Zetnus hasn't done this, and copying parts of rms scripts is standard practice for map scripting. In the description he clearly described it as "team islands with connecting shallows". I understand why someone would call it that, but I think they should be more careful with their words. Plagiarism means more than what was done here. Building on the work of others is part of how modding, including rms scripting works in general (You ask of course - but that doesn't apply here as it's an ES script)

2. Does this violate the rules of the contest? No. Rule 1 states "Contestants must submit their own work. "
Note the wording - this might be a bit nitpicky, but if this was about cases like this it would be something along the lines of "Submitted maps must be created by the contestant (alone)" - the actual rule is about submitting (full) files that somebody else created - e.g. if they published them somewhere else first, and I beat them to submitting it to the aoezone contest thread - obviously that should not count.

3. Is the map unoriginal? Arguably, yes - This is not meant in a negative way. It can still be a good map - Dry Arabia is a great improvement over regular Arabia even if it's unoriginal. Adding shallows to Team Islands is not a huge change in itself, but can still make a significant difference in how the map plays. However, it's less work and less own map designing compared to other maps made from scratch.

4. Assuming the map is deemed unoriginal, should it be chosen as a winner? This can be debated of course, but originality was not one of the criteria mentioned for how maps are judged
Maps will be judged on their competitiveness/balance as well as looks and how well they fit the theme.
. Changing this afterwards due to criticism is not a good idea. It could potentially be changed for the upcoming map contests though.

I can understand that it might feel lame to have an "unoriginal" map win, especially if you've submitted your own works to the contest that you poured a lot of effort into - But given how the contest was set up, it's imo a fair winner. You can of course ask for the criteria and judging to be changed in the future, but given what I wrote above, I don't think it's fair to call for disqualification.
 

United KingdomNick_

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#45
Having team Captains involved in the final pick between say 3 teams could be a nice addition, but overall the current system works fine. Again, isnt it nice that we have all this negativity about something thats just supposed to be a fun thing for the community. Im not sure what the players really feel about the maps featured so far in the tourney - such player feedback would actually be really interesting. Dry River seems to have been well liked, and I dont think that map promotes ”garbage gameplay” at all. The TG meta might be a bit solved sort of, but its very entertaining to both watch and play imo.
Ah yes, dry river, a map where the only valid strategy is to sling and win the middle.
 

DenmarkChrazini

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#46
I wanted to add my own thoughts to this - I think it's best to seperate the questions that have come up regarding this topic.

1. Is this plagiarism? Imo, no. Plagiarism implies that you hide the fact that parts of your work came from somewhere else. Zetnus hasn't done this, and copying parts of rms scripts is standard practice for map scripting. In the description he clearly described it as "team islands with connecting shallows". I understand why someone would call it that, but I think they should be more careful with their words. Plagiarism means more than what was done here. Building on the work of others is part of how modding, including rms scripting works in general (You ask of course - but that doesn't apply here as it's an ES script)

2. Does this violate the rules of the contest? No. Rule 1 states "Contestants must submit their own work. "
Note the wording - this might be a bit nitpicky, but if this was about cases like this it would be something along the lines of "Submitted maps must be created by the contestant (alone)" - the actual rule is about submitting (full) files that somebody else created - e.g. if they published them somewhere else first, and I beat them to submitting it to the aoezone contest thread - obviously that should not count.

3. Is the map unoriginal? Arguably, yes - This is not meant in a negative way. It can still be a good map - Dry Arabia is a great improvement over regular Arabia even if it's unoriginal. Adding shallows to Team Islands is not a huge change in itself, but can still make a significant difference in how the map plays. However, it's less work and less own map designing compared to other maps made from scratch.

4. Assuming the map is deemed unoriginal, should it be chosen as a winner? This can be debated of course, but originality was not one of the criteria mentioned for how maps are judged . Changing this afterwards due to criticism is not a good idea. It could potentially be changed for the upcoming map contests though.

I can understand that it might feel lame to have an "unoriginal" map win, especially if you've submitted your own works to the contest that you poured a lot of effort into - But given how the contest was set up, it's imo a fair winner. You can of course ask for the criteria and judging to be changed in the future, but given what I wrote above, I don't think it's fair to call for disqualification.
I will argue that it is still plagiarism if the original author/creator is cited. I'm all for copying snippets here and there to make random map scripting more comfortable and faster, but this is not a case of "copying parts" of the original script. This is taking a finished book, adding a new chapter, and re-releasing it as your own - almost nothing was changed.

Does this violate the rule? I still believe it does. I guess it depends on how you define "your own work", but when 90% of the script isn't made by you, I don't see how you can claim that it is your work.

Originality? I don't care. If he had taken the time and re-written the code himself, come up with an extremely similar map, it would have been alright in my opinion. The map itself is excellent; it's the fact that the code is not created by the submitter.
 

GermanyMichaerbse

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#47
Originality? I don't care. If he had taken the time and re-written the code himself, come up with an extremely similar map, it would have been alright in my opinion. The map itself is excellent; it's the fact that the code is not created by the submitter.
This is a really weird opinion and weakens your position a lot imo. I sincerely hope that almost no scripter here tries to reinvent the wheel every single time by re-writing basically the same code. This would just be an incredibly dumb and inefficient way to do things. And changing tab indentions or similar things just for the sake of changing something does not make it better...

Without any understanding of scripting, I think how the changes effect game-play, is generally more important than the quantity of time it took to tweak code. Some projects are going to require more coding time than others--some maps are going to look much closer to others, but still add dramatic change to game-play (think Green Arabia). In this case, shallows will add a new flourish of dynamics to Team Islands, while also providing Tatoh plenty of opportunities to blow shit up with his heavy demo ships...I do not think Zetnus is 'taking credit' for, or 'stealing', team islands.
I agree with this. The impact of the changes made should be way more important than how many lines of code are actually changed. In my opinion a single line of code added could be sufficient if it changes the map significantly. In contrast, (e.g. looking at Rehydration) the use of direct_placement seems to require you to "change"/"add" multiple thousand lines but still having Arabia with fixed positions would be a less significant change than what was done here...
Therefore the attempt to set a limit as to how many lines need to be changed in order to be considered as "own work" is pretty pointless.
 

DenmarkChrazini

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#48
This is a really weird opinion and weakens your position a lot imo. I sincerely hope that almost no scripter here tries to reinvent the wheel every single time by re-writing basically the same code. This would just be an incredibly dumb and inefficient way to do things. And changing tab indentions or similar things just for the sake of changing something does not make it better...



I agree with this. The impact of the changes made should be way more important than how many lines of code are actually changed. In my opinion a single line of code added could be sufficient if it changes the map significantly. In contrast, (e.g. looking at Rehydration) the use of direct_placement seems to require you to "change"/"add" multiple thousand lines but still having Arabia with fixed positions would be a less significant change than what was done here...
Therefore the attempt to set a limit as to how many lines need to be changed in order to be considered as "own work" is pretty pointless.
I don't truly understand how that weakens my position. It doesn't take a long time to create your desired map if you already have a design in mind, especially not if you're an expert like Zetnus. Two people writing separate cookbooks may include the same dishes and outcomes, but the way they do it is their own and differ slightly from each other, making it their own.

On a second note - Rehydration is written from scratch without a single line of code copied from Arabia or taken from other creators.

Edit: Either way, I think I've voiced my opinion enough at this point. I respect all opinions and decisions that will be made. Looking forward to seeing the map played.
 
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Austriateutonic_tanks

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#49
This is a really weird opinion and weakens your position a lot imo. I sincerely hope that almost no scripter here tries to reinvent the wheel every single time by re-writing basically the same code. This would just be an incredibly dumb and inefficient way to do things. And changing tab indentions or similar things just for the sake of changing something does not make it better...
I think you have no idea about how mapmaking usually works. People don't simply mass copy codes, but come up with own creative stuff and even by simply changing the design of a map, without changing it's charakter, it changes a LOT of lines and not only a few. Nobody ever copies like the whole <Terrian Generation> or <Object Generation> of a map.
 
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Austriateutonic_tanks

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#50
Ah yes, dry river, a map where the only valid strategy is to sling and win the middle.
As if the map is responsible for indians being still a pretty broken civ as pkt or sling being totally efficient on barely wallable open land maps. The 30% fee (which is in fact only fee that takes 23 res of 100 sent res, means only effective 23%) is simply way too small and should be at least 50% (effective 33% of sent resources are lost).
Also aM broke in semi finals the best slinger team, Finnland, without sending a single resource, it's totally possible if you just play agressive enough.
 
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