Discussion - NAC2 Play-Offs Grand Finals

[Syphax]

@Dovakhiin: Yes, but I'm not just talking about performing "better" as in focusing more on microing properly, but also general strategy decisions such as walling/not walling, getting the relics, pushing when your opponent has clearly no defense yet is booming. That is a conscious decision.

 

[Nick_]

Even the trolls of aoczone have gone down in quality. 3/10 for effort.

 

[vrubson]

Even the trolls of aoczone have gone down in quality. 3/10 for effort.

maybe the troll are trolling that they are on lvl 3/10 just to make aoezone have more views in topics? and in reality they are still on 10/10 #kappa

 

[Syphax]

I think these personal attacks and insults are pretty sad. If I was a troll, I wouldn't write elaborate, long posts. Why not argue about the facts with me? It seems more like you guys are trolling.

Why does Viper inexplicably go for much worse strategies and plays when he is up a few games or it doesnt matter?

 

[patao]

I've long thought the "Viper throws games on purpose" line of thinking is both totally wrong and super disrespectful to his opponents.

That said, the current 1v1 scene is a problem IMO - when Viper wins 10 straight crucial games against his (arguably) two closest competitors, he actually starts hurting himself by seemingly killing future interest in the competition.

So when he loses games, it's actually in his best interest, which is super broken and leads to this debate. It sucks for Viper as much as it sucks for his opponents. Regardless of whether him throwing games is a lie, a subconscious effect, or a conscious decision on his part, it's still a broken situation.

Anyways, I don't have a good solution to fix it, but let me say as a fan: I am super ready for the return of TGs. I think the current TG landscape is far more interesting & competitive.

 

[Fall]

It's difficult because even if Viper is playing sub-par to throw games, he's still better than everyone else, hence the confusion.

But personally I think he was trying his best against Tatoh in all games. I don't think Viper would play below his standard in any game of a grand final. Also the idea that he will throw games because it's his teammate/friend doesn't really hold water - if anything that would motivate you to play better not worse.

 

[Athasos]

I think these personal attacks and insults are pretty sad. If I was a troll, I wouldn't write elaborate, long posts. Why not argue about the facts with me? It seems more like you guys are trolling.

Why does Viper inexplicably go for much worse strategies and plays when he is up a few games or it doesnt matter?

How about giving examples of how viper played less good during his losses against Tatoh?
Unless you are starting to actually talk about the games and give some facts for your claims nobody will care ybout your opinion ...

 

[_Andrew]

It's difficult because even if Viper is playing sub-par to throw games, he's still better than everyone else, hence the confusion.

But personally I think he was trying his best against Tatoh in all games. I don't think Viper would play below his standard in any game of a grand final. Also the idea that he will throw games because it's his teammate/friend doesn't really hold water - if anything that would motivate you to play better not worse.

TEL1 against Riut

 

[Hellrider_23]

Viper does mistakes, that's why he loses games in these big tournaments. No throwing,trolling or matchfixing arguments make any sense here ( this isn't legacy of the huns with no money or prestige on the line).

Mbl,Yo,Tatoh,Liereyy all of them have shown us within a month that they can take multiple games from viper, and in one case even a entire series.

Saying the competitive scene is boring now ? That's completely ridiculous. It's more exciting than the past few years easily. The only thing coming close to now is maybe after KOTD1 where liereyy almost beat viper which still doesn't compare to right now imo.

 

[Syphax]

@Athasos: See above. Magyars game, why not go for all relics with full map control e.g. Or the Goth game: yes, the matchup was hard, but all-in with huscarls against berserks would probably never even once work against any top5 player on regicide fortress. Had he instead gone for Imp himself+relics+boom+champion hold into hand cannons, he would at least have had a chance.

Or look at the games vs MbL: why no walls game1 for no reason (no map is unwallable; in KotD2 against Liereyy Viper e.g. walled every game that he won)? Or on coastal mountain against MbL: Why not pushing at all with Conqs to raid or with mangonels on the TCs, when MbL was booming, had like no defence (few monks that were killed) and only palisades?

---

I still have yet to see a convincing argument against mine. All people say is, "Viper wouldn't do it" and "that's disrespectful".

But Viper's general performance/strength (winning almost every major 1v1 tournament), his tendency to play ...creative/trollish strats when it doesn't really matter (even in LotH), his surprisingly drastic difference in performance compared to crucial games and his general strategic choices in the aforementioned games all heavily hint towards him not "try harding" in all these games.

 

[AkeNo]

I don't care for the discussion tbh because it's kinda pointless to argue about all that but one thing that triggers me is that you keep saying coastal mountain. It's Coast to Mountain. Thank you and continue

 

[Sjut]

I don't even know why I reply to this, but since you've asked for some arguements against your "facts" and you're repeating that Viper didn't go for the relics in the Magyar vs. Inca game and conclude that he didn't play serious.

Did it come to your mind that Viper maybe wanted to use his ressources (wood & gold) for early siege-workshop and mangonal instead of monestary and monk to push into Tatohs base? Maybe he wanted to use the ressources to keep CA production going? Did you see that Tatoh had a really rough start and maybe Viper decided to go for an early push to avoid late-imp, where Incas are hard to beat?

I'm only a random HD pleb, but even I know that there is more to the game than "getting relics = playing serious / not getting relics = not playing serious".

Tatoh played some amazing games after the break and even before there were some really close ones.

 

[Syphax]

@Sjut: have you watched many Viper games? In basically every game (if he has the chance at all, i.e. map control or even if he doesn't) Viper goes for the relics. Even if he is under heavy pressure and barely has the ressources, he goes for the relics (e.g. the game against Liereyy on Arabia as spanish in the NAC2 group stage).

In the magyars game, Viper was pushing on Tatohs base for many minutes (!) without a real chance to get in, Tatoh was clearly turtling up and booming, another 2-3 CA wouldn't make a big difference, but having all the relics on graveyards of all maps would make the lategame basically instant gg. It just seems highly implausible that Viper, who is known to go for the relics more than every other top player, wouldn't invest the time and effort into it, when otherwise he basically always does it.

As for late Imp: if you have, I don't know, 8-0 relics, lategame is a clear win, even against Incas.

But most importantly: that's just one example. It just seems like such a "coincidence" that these kinds of things only really happen when it doesn't matter/lots of people want a long series but not when it really counts (crucial, deciding games).

 

[wAkKo]

Dude, move on. You are ruining this thread.

 

[Syphax]

Dude, move on. You are ruining this thread.

I think these personal attacks and insults are pretty sad. If I was a troll, I wouldn't write elaborate, long posts. Why not argue about the facts with me? It seems more like you guys are trolling.

Why does Viper inexplicably go for much worse strategies and plays when he is up a few games or it doesnt matter?

Why aren't you willing to discuss the facts?

 

[Athasos]

@Athasos: Or the Goth game: yes, the matchup was hard, but all-in with huscarls against berserks would probably never even once work against any top5 player on regicide fortress. Had he instead gone for Imp himself+relics+boom+champion hold into hand cannons, he would at least have had a chance.

I'll reply to this example only, to show you why you are treated like a "child" here.
Trying to boom against vikings is pretty dumb, vikings eco is stronger, so you'll be in a disadvantage from the beginning.
Your idea of what he could have done is way worse than what viper actually did.
You are just showing, that you know even less about age than me ...

 

[Syphax]

First of all, it's really silly to quote one example when I provided multiple. It's about the trend. But obviously it's much easier for you to just close your eyes, insult me ("child") and ignore everything else I say.

Secondly, it's not impossible to "boom" against Vikings. Lots of people boom against Vikings (e.g. Tatoh with Brits - yes, I know about their bonus - against MbL. He lost because of the push, not the econ). Vikings have a strong early economy bonus (wheelbarrow/handcart), but that is only a temporary boost (unlike e.g. Mayans). Obviously Vikings will thus have an advantage in early Imp, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

At least a chance to survive and eventually win remains bc in lategame everything can happen (even Magyars winning against Incas, see other game). But if you go for a castle age all in push against berserks, it's an auto loss.

 

[Scogo_]

if I had so much spare time to dedicate to my aoe skill level as some of the forum members here apparently have for silly, pointless discussions ....

I'd be 2k5 player I have no doubt.

 

[Athasos]

First of all, it's really silly to quote one example when I provided multiple. It's about the trend. But obviously it's much easier for you to just close your eyes, insult me ("child") and ignore everything else I say.

Secondly, it's not impossible to "boom" against Vikings. Lots of people boom against Vikings (e.g. Tatoh with Brits - yes, I know about their bonus - against MbL. He lost because of the push, not the econ). Vikings have a strong early economy bonus (wheelbarrow/handcart), but that is only a temporary boost (unlike e.g. Mayans). Obviously Vikings will thus have an advantage in early Imp, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

At least a chance to survive and eventually win remains bc in lategame everything can happen (even Magyars winning against Incas, see other game). But if you go for a castle age all in push against berserks, it's an auto loss.

Dude your example was "crap"
You suggested to go into a lategame fight, with worse eco setup and worse units, how is that supposed to ever work?
Don't be silly, I didn't say you are a child I said people treat you like a child 11
Also why did viper win magyars lategame?
Not because if paired even in imp they are better, but because he had the map and kept pushing, not allowing TatoH to play the full potential of incas.
(actually the same thing he did with goth against vikings, even though it didn't work that time ... )

 

[Funito]

I don't think he throw games, but the atmosphere was catastrophic when it was 5-0. I don't think that if he won 7-0 would had being so problematic like everyone was thinking.

 

[Syphax]

@Athasos: You still haven't adressed my other points.

But clearly, this is a waste of time. Barely a few people have tried to make sensible points and have a rational discussion, most posters have instead only resorted to personal attacks, meaningless generalisations or claims ("Viper wouldn't do this") or arguments ad morality ("disrespectful"). Quite sad, but oh well.

Just keep believing that there is this really close struggle at the top, with Viper just coincidentally always coming out on top when it counts. As long as it makes you feel better about the "exciting" competitive scene (which I actually enjoy watching, but then again I like good gameplay regardless of whether the same guy always wins or not) and getting hyped, because "for sure" Liereyy will win next year or "MbL is Viper's kryptonite".

Fact is: there are a lot of indicators for Viper sometimes making it closer than it would be if he went 100%. That may be due to a lack of motivation in these moments, that may be to entertain the viewers or to keep the hype going. But just closing your eyes and pretending it doesn't happen is just silly.

 

[Athasos]

@Athasos: You still haven't adressed my other points.

But clearly, this is a waste of time. Barely a few people have tried to make sensible points and have a rational discussion, most posters have instead only resorted to personal attacks, meaningless generalisations or claims ("Viper wouldn't do this") or arguments ad morality ("disrespectful"). Quite sad, but oh well.

Just keep believing that there is this really close struggle at the top, with Viper just coincidentally always coming out on top when it counts. As long as it makes you feel better about the "exciting" competitive scene (which I actually enjoy watching, but then again I like good gameplay regardless of whether the same guy always wins or not) and getting hyped, because "for sure" Liereyy will win next year or "MbL is Viper's kryptonite".

Fact is: there are a lot of indicators for Viper sometimes making it closer than it would be if he went 100%. That may be due to a lack of motivation in these moments, that may be to entertain the viewers or to keep the hype going. But just closing your eyes and pretending it doesn't happen is just silly.

I didn't adress your other arguments as the were even worse, but hey as you ask for it, there we go.
1. Magyars game and not going for all relics
Explanaition: collecting relics while microing CA +building eco +pushing is pretty hard and (you can believe it or not) viper also has a limited amount of apm to fight as good as he did.
Question: how is that even an argument when he won that game?
2. Goth push against vikings
Explanaition: Goth are in a very big disadvantage in late imp against vikings, they most likely lose anyway if you go boom against vikings. Therefore early agression may force errors or might help when the map isn't good for the opponent. Early agression is the higher chance of winning here.
3. Games against MBL
I fail to see how this is an argument at all, you were claiming that viper played less good after 5-0/6-1 and give an example of the (kinda irrelevant and late at night + early in the tournament) match against mbl

So in reality I replied to you most "logical" argument and showed how it made no sense.

But how about you here?
Why are you falling back to whining how you were unfairly treated when somebody actually replies to your argument?

 

[kw1k000000]

People seem to forget past events very easily. Check out the latest Master of Arena final between Tatoh and Viper.

Viper made some very questionable basic decisions in that set which a player of his caliber would never make. Every prominent caster was pointing this out during live casting. Result it went to 3-3 and then viper won in the end.

He has done it in past as well. TEL 1 vs Riut is another clear example.

To be honest, it’s nothing wrong if sometimes he goes easy against friends/teammates or in non consequential group stage matches.

 

[Athasos]

People seem to forget past events very easily. Check out the latest Master of Arena final between Tatoh and Viper.

Viper made some very questionable basic decisions in that set which a player of his caliber would never make. Every prominent caster was pointing this out during live casting. Result it went to 3-3 and then viper won in the end.

He has done it in past as well. TEL 1 vs Riut is another clear example.

To be honest, it’s nothing wrong if sometimes he goes easy against friends/teammates or in non consequential group stage matches.

maybe he doesn't go "easy" on them, but is less prepared and less motivated in masters of Arena than in NAC2 final ...

 

[Seb1234]

Thing is, even if he performed worse after leading 5-0, that doesnt mean he did it on purpose