Discussing 9 vill start

[Zbyszek]

Whats your take on that format, now that you have watched and maybe played it for some time?

I only noticed in the finals when Hera restarted that it is explored to some degree. Doesnt that take away from the early game? (auto auto everything) Thats obviously just the players perspective.
How big is the conflict of interest between viewer and player perspective?

Is it more of an equalizer in terms of civ strenght or the opposite?

How does it change the viability of strategies? Or does it allow for interesting new strategies?

 

[Potkeny]

How does it change the viability of strategies? Or does it allow for interesting new strategies?

How exactly do you define the 9-vill start?

Removing food from the standard starting resources like if you played through the first 6 villagers, or simply giving extra vills to start with?

Do you explore around the same extra tiles you would during the first few villagers, or simply place some sheep/etc. below your TC?

Do you force-spawn boars/deer in LoS to give the illusion of scouting instead?

Depending on the goal of a tournament/map, you will get different mix of changes (f.e. the different scouting-needs on arabia vs arena or the impact of "extra food" for FCs), and that impacts what strategies are buffed/nerfed, if at all.

 

[kalpit00]

My general outtake from NAC4
People still pushed deers almost every game (provided the map allowed for it)
We saw barely any boar lames in the entire tourney, except for that liereyy boar lame on Viper in Kawasan Aztecs vs Byz.

Overall idea of 9 vil start : Love it.
As a viewer, does not really make any difference
As a caster, saves them some time at the beginning of the game which they have to fill in with random topics (they talk about the map gen and civs for a bit but unless there's laming going on, not much else to talk about)
As a player, probably the most impactful, because it still changes dark age on land maps where the possibility of laming is almost non-existent. You have to start pushing those deers as you are on a timer, and if you don't, opponent gets free eco boost.

On a more wider scope, good format. even for players, this is not a bad change. It does impact the flow of the game, with 9 vils, we don't see drush FCs as often or we don't see lames (laming ofc has the luck factor and can work in either player's favor, usually favoring underdogs who have nothing to lose and gamble)

On standard maps like Arena, Islands, even Arabia, it's a no-brainer to not go for 9 vil start. It should be the norm/standard if possible

For certain maps (like socotra, hippopotamus) where there is dark age action, lame fiesta, vil rushes, militia plays etc, 3 vil would be ideal as it allows for dark age plays

 

[Zbyszek]

@Potkeny I mean settings used in Deep waters league, warlords and NAC4

 

[Lokalo]

Whats your take on that format, now that you have watched and maybe played it for some time?

I only noticed in the finals when Hera restarted that it is explored to some degree. Doesnt that take away from the early game? (auto auto everything) Thats obviously just the players perspective.
How big is the conflict of interest between viewer and player perspective?

Is it more of an equalizer in terms of civ strenght or the opposite?

How does it change the viability of strategies? Or does it allow for interesting new strategies?

I played like 10 games on it. Personally felt like I have bit less time to adjust and push deers etc, but I guess takes time to adapt a bit, but wasn't too much different. It has to be explored some, otherwise makes no sense, you have to see your woodline, else you don't know where to go for wood. Strategy wise didn't feel much of a difference, but was a bit less smooth to play, which makes sense knowing how many times I have played 3vill start.

How exactly do you define the 9-vill start?

Well currently there is mainly only DWL(NAC4 used it DWL) or Warlods start, however I preffer DWL mainly because of more explored area, makes game smoother. I guess keeping res more as per 3vill start just having +6 vill is good too, as need less to adapt.

 

[Potkeny]

I mean settings used in Deep waters league, warlords and NAC4

But they are not exactly the same, that's my point.

 

[YoungPanda95]

But they are not exactly the same, that's my point.

The subtle differences between all the 9 villager starts we've had so far, if anyone was ever wondering or haven't noticed it.

 

[otw_Da]

Ah good to see the difference. Didn't knew that. I enjoyed Warlords alot. Was a great tournament.
There are some maps I like 9 vill start and others I dislike hard.
What do the profis say about arena 9 vill start as meta? I think its fit arena pretty well.
On nomad i didn't enjoy it myself - way to much with the yellow border, food everywhere and the ally view. Informationen overload.

 

[Alicat]

I really enjoy the 9 vil start tourneys, it feels like a really good middle ground between standard RM and Empire wars. The community is never going to move on from a 20 year tradition of 3 vil RM start but having these slightly faster starts helps with streaming and esports if that's the way the game is going to continue to push.

 

[Potkeny]

What do the profis say about arena 9 vill start as meta? I think its fit arena pretty well.

You could see gameplay of one version of 9-vill start on closed maps in Wallhalla (https://liquipedia.net/ageofempires/Wallhalla), though for arena the HP of walls is an important factor too.

 

[AlBundy95]

9 vills start would matter much more for non-pro players with lower skills, where it all matters.
For pros dark age almost always looks the same and it's perfect execution, so the start with more vills was great introduction.

 

[Zbyszek]

What I dont understand is the gain from this. in term of vill production you save 1 minute 28 seconds. Is that really something worth switching for?

 

[King_Boo]

What I dont understand is the gain from this. in term of vill production you save 1 minute 28 seconds. Is that really something worth switching for?

for 88s real time, removing any strategic options seems like a dreadful decision. It is most evident on water/hybrid maps where stronger builds can give bigger leads. More choices in scouting / pushing deer is also taken away with the 9 vill start.
Ultimately if you want to change the start, you will sacrifice the strategic value - which as this is an RTS, to me makes no sense at all

 

[LeoMontero]

The subtle differences between all the 9 villager starts we've had so far, if anyone was ever wondering or haven't noticed it.

View attachment 204823

in NAC4 they started with 200 stone if im correct, the other two tournaments i dont remember

 

[YoungPanda95]

in NAC4 they started with 200 stone if im correct, the other two tournaments i dont remember

Whoops, that's my mistake. It is the normal 200 stone for them all I just mistyped

 

[LowEloNobody]

What I dont understand is the gain from this. in term of vill production you save 1 minute 28 seconds. Is that really something worth switching for?

For content creation, yes.
It has been consistently shown in other RTS scenes that faster starts / less "no action" time is better for viewer retention.
For example, StarCraft 2 increased it's starting worker count from 6 ->12 to reduce "no action" times, and this is a game where the average game length is < 10 minutes.
Even with this change, many content creators skip the first ~60 seconds of game time because there isn't much happening, and viewer retention is better if they go straight from the intro -> action on the map
It's also not just 90 seconds, you have more vils working earlier, so the games tend to be about 1-2 vils faster on build orders etc. We saw this quite a bit with the AM bois who perfected 9-vil start builds. I would go look at the series between Hera and Yo where Hera was consistently up to feudal at least 1 vil faster.
For tourney hosts like Nili, who just LOVE to have insanely long sets, the 9-vil start can cut 30-40 minutes of low-value game time from a 10-12 hour casting day.

 

[LeoMontero]

Im a classic guy, long live the standard start, the one that is the game created for, the 3 vil start

 

[Hunyadi_]

What I dont understand is the gain from this. in term of vill production you save 1 minute 28 seconds. Is that really something worth switching for?

This is exactly my thinking as well. It's literally nothing being saved and changing the game for the sake of changing the game.

When I was younger I always played the game on fast speed and when I discovered Twitch and AoE2 streamers I was shocked they're playing on slow speed.

Maybe the solution to speed the game up and make it more "watchable" is literally to speed the game up. I'd love to see that personally. I still feel sometimes that units move way too slow in the game.

 

[malamadre]

I don't think viewers care. Game has been popular and successful without being some seconds faster. I even think slow start builds more hype.