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Current Situation on Aoe4 and Aoe2
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OctavianAoe
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Why would they hate it lol? It's a lot of money!
I don't follow much of what's going on in aoe4, but honestly seems like the issue that some here have pointed out. The group stage is simply taking too long and the viewership got hit.
Saying this because IIRC an earlier stage of the tournament got higher viewership (10K-11K?).
If my hunch is right, then the semis and finals of the golden league will peak at around 13-15K
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HongeyKong
NextLever
LokaloHow long average game takes? As far as I remember aoe4 fans kept braging aoe4 is very fast game
Ok maybe its me hating it because I want Viper back @ the ladder but there were QA after one of the redbulls how they prefered tournaments and they all said they prefer short (2-3 weeks), this been lasting what 3 months? with group stage 3 weeks.
And yea I would think the same even if it was AoE2 tournament (exept hidden cup & KOTD)
It is possible to cast two games the same time, but I do understand the sponsor wants to max out the hours on stream.
Glad the semi and final atleast going on the same weekend, think this is better both for viewers and for players
Well, yeah. Could we make it shorter? Of course we could. But also i don't understand why is bad having the top 8 players playing Bo7 between each other. I don't think anyone will complain about having top 8 of Aoe II playing against each other during 3 weeks
11 both are my games, you simple troll
The problem for me is that it is too few games happening per weekend, and with that the tournament feels like it is progressing very slowly. I definitely would have preferred shorter series but more of them during a day
The elite stage of this tournament does run relatively long (4 weekends), but my philosophy was to make sure that while it creates a lot of content for our audience, the burden on each player is relatively low. I wanted a design whereby the top players could continue streaming a regular schedule and with only one match per weekend they can do that. Going forward this will likely remain our philosophy. We want there to be regular e-sports content and we like taking on the challenge of providing that.
It's worth considering that we base our decisions on making events for AOE4 players, and it's not realistic that we also take into consideration whether players want to participate in other games. I obviously understand why that would be frustrating for those waiting for players to come back and play AOE2, but that can't be part of our decision making process. That's not to say I don't sympathise, obviously TheViper in particular is someone that anyone would want to be playing their game, and I'm sure you'll be glad to see him playing AOE2 again soon.
On viewership, a few points:
1. We obviously knew when doing a longer drawn out format that the average viewership would be much lower than a shorter event. We knowingly sacrificed peak viewership for overall time watched. It's a new game and we're trying to grow an ecosystem. I think continuous e-sports content does that more than a short event followed by months without any major event, but you're entitled to disagree.
2. I do find this obsession with comparing AOE2 and AOE4 viewership over here a little bizarre. If you support AOE2 and want it to succeed then surely it should be about just wanting the numbers to be as high as possible irrespective of how many people are watching AOE4 events. I'd rather we got 10k and AOE2 got 15k than we got 5k and AOE2 for 2k. I feel that a lot (not all) of the people here care more to see bad numbers for AOE4 than good for AOE2, which is a little sad.
3. One the main reasons that the AOE2 audience is high for e-sports events is that you have personalities that bring their own audiences after years of cultivation (which is fantastic). Clearly AOE4 isn't there yet, but I think it will get there. But obviously having the personalities round AOE2 that have been there for years growing with the game is a huge difference maker.
4. Part of this process is also seeing new names on the competitive side which brings new audiences. Yesterday we saw a similar peak viewership (around 5k) during Beastyqt vs Wam as TheViper vs DeMusliM. As more new players break through we hope and expect they'll bring audiences with them too.
Anyway just some small thoughts.
It's worth considering that we base our decisions on making events for AOE4 players, and it's not realistic that we also take into consideration whether players want to participate in other games. I obviously understand why that would be frustrating for those waiting for players to come back and play AOE2, but that can't be part of our decision making process. That's not to say I don't sympathise, obviously TheViper in particular is someone that anyone would want to be playing their game, and I'm sure you'll be glad to see him playing AOE2 again soon.
On viewership, a few points:
1. We obviously knew when doing a longer drawn out format that the average viewership would be much lower than a shorter event. We knowingly sacrificed peak viewership for overall time watched. It's a new game and we're trying to grow an ecosystem. I think continuous e-sports content does that more than a short event followed by months without any major event, but you're entitled to disagree.
2. I do find this obsession with comparing AOE2 and AOE4 viewership over here a little bizarre. If you support AOE2 and want it to succeed then surely it should be about just wanting the numbers to be as high as possible irrespective of how many people are watching AOE4 events. I'd rather we got 10k and AOE2 got 15k than we got 5k and AOE2 for 2k. I feel that a lot (not all) of the people here care more to see bad numbers for AOE4 than good for AOE2, which is a little sad.
3. One the main reasons that the AOE2 audience is high for e-sports events is that you have personalities that bring their own audiences after years of cultivation (which is fantastic). Clearly AOE4 isn't there yet, but I think it will get there. But obviously having the personalities round AOE2 that have been there for years growing with the game is a huge difference maker.
4. Part of this process is also seeing new names on the competitive side which brings new audiences. Yesterday we saw a similar peak viewership (around 5k) during Beastyqt vs Wam as TheViper vs DeMusliM. As more new players break through we hope and expect they'll bring audiences with them too.
Anyway just some small thoughts.
EGC doesnt have a second channel, plus as you said they gotta squeze every single bit of views.
A) 2 BO7 * 2 days * 3 weeks = 12 sets
B) 3 BO5 * 2 days * 2 weeks = 12 sets
C) 4 BO5 * 2 days * 1.5 weeks = 12 sets
(B) could be unfair in some sense
(C) might be too much
Sums up my thoughts entirely, I feel as if the aoe4 community wants the franchise as a whole to be successful, more than "our" part of the franchise.
Of course there's certainly always the outlier and nasty person within the aoe4 community as well! But I think the above is such a good mindset to have, so that in future we get an aoe5, 6, 7 and 8!
If you want to make the burden on the players low, make the tournament half the length or even less.
Players prefer shorter tournaments (with concentrated engagement) rather than something that drags on forever.
I, too, prefer working less for more $.
That would be pretty good viewership IMO. That's about what N4C had and it was a LAN. Given general decline in both viewership and player count since N4C, matching or exceeding those numbers would be a big accomplishment and show some stability in the fan base
Except there is nothing to indicate that isn't the case already. Both can be true at the same time. People want as high numbers as possible for aoe2 and at the same time take some pleasure knowing it brings in more viewers than the other game despite, in their eyes, being screwed over by Microsoft and tournament coordinator in favor of said game.
I'd like to pretend we're one big "family" and want all the best for the entire franchise but honestly, I couldn't care less what happens to aoe4 or aoe3.
The Civilisation series is not a good comparison, and certainly not Civ 5 vs Civ 6 as compared to AoE2 vs AoE4. I remember playing Civ 2 and AoE2 interchangeably back in the late 90s. AoE2 is literally still alive and kicking; Civ 2 while still magic, idk! Each further Civ game seemed a faithful continuation and expansion of the series, keeping the core mechanics and turn-based empire-building. I played them all with decreasing commitment all the way to Civ 6 due to age, not because I enjoyed them less. Whereas AoE3 I also tried at the time and found it boring, and AoE4 I honestly tried to watch, but found it off-putting for various reasons. The Civ series seems to have really succeeded where the AoE series has failed, in transitioning through the sequels. But, I think the 'AoE2 franchise' specifically has managed what the Civ series has, keeping true to the core mechanics and RTS empire-building with each new 'release', HD, Voobly UPs, DE, etc. Although I don't know how faithful infinite DLCs will be!
Don't worry for the future of the franchise, as long as MS can milk AoE2 with 20 New DLCs through 10 years they are going to develop AoE games, they released AoEO after the not so popular AoE3(Even thought the sales were not bad), and AoE4 after the failure of AoEO, and they will released AoE5 after...., Do you see the pattern?, AoE2 is the anchor of this franchise so far, while it has a stable playerbase MS is going for new games, no doubt about it.
Informal poll of the wise heads of AoEZone.
In each of the following situations how do you think AoE2 would be affected? (Worse off, the same, better off)
Feel free to explain why.
1) AoE4 was never announced, and therefore never created and released.
2) AoE4 was released in the same state but a few years earlier (say 2018/19).
3) AoE4 is released in the same state but a few years later (2023/24).
4) AoE4 is released in a better state but a few years later (2023/24).
In each of the following situations how do you think AoE2 would be affected? (Worse off, the same, better off)
Feel free to explain why.
1) AoE4 was never announced, and therefore never created and released.
2) AoE4 was released in the same state but a few years earlier (say 2018/19).
3) AoE4 is released in the same state but a few years later (2023/24).
4) AoE4 is released in a better state but a few years later (2023/24).
1) Kind of the same as today, maybe a few more LANs, but I think overall if the strategy was still the same (long-term care for AoE titles) then it would keep going until a new exec at MS thought of making a new entry on a franchise with a lot of goodwill. Basically, a matter of time before an AoE 4 would be made.
2) Things would probably be way more heated around here. I can imagine some of the up and comer casters at that time jumping to AoE IV as we've seen with others and that creating a lot of heated discussions. Given that they had a few years to create rock-solid income in terms of subscribers, and deals, that was never at risk. I think 2 would have been the worst outcome by far.
3) AoE IV would flop, it would be an utter total and horrible flop. Frost Giant is in pre-production and will have likely shown some demo before AoE IV's release, Immortals is getting there, they actually have a beta going, and in 2 years we might see an indie game rocking the RTS boat as we've seen with many other genres that were niche or dead. On the AoE 2 side, who knows, I would figure those competitors would just be magnitudes bigger than anything in AoE, especially if Riot is not just an investor for Frost Giant's project but actually decides to head its esports side.
4) Maybe AoE IV would be fine. Considering points in 3, if AoE IV released better and could ride a hype wave for a new-gen RTS cycle then it could be pretty good. For AoE II I think just having the AoE brand could do a lot of good for it.
_________
Reading back I think it might come off as thinking AoE 2 is dead anyway. I don't. I've read too much about the scene to think it could be snuffed out by anything short of aliens at this point.
What I do think is that any scenario in which an equal or better RTS or multiple ones exists slowly chips away players from AoE II. Right now you have high-end competitors in most esports titles that were not alive when AoE II came out. Nostalgia comebacks can only help for so long and AoE doesn't really have influencers that would die on the AoE II hill like other would-be dead scenes have, like Melee (Ludwig/Hbox).
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Not sure. But for example saturday and sunday, the livestream went on from like 12 GMT to 22 GMT, just for two sets of BO7.
I'd say each set takes like 4 hours.
Did each set get the full 7 games? If we (generously) assume so, but w/o intermissions, then the games were going over 34 minutes each, which is equivalent to 58 AoE2 minutes. In other words, AoE4 games are similar or slightly longer than AoE2 games.
Yeah maybe. I personally never stopped to think about the avg game length compared to AOE2.
The early game in AOE4 is definitely faster than in AOE2, but the late game tends to slow down because of the siege dominance. So maybe it makes sense that the avg game length is overall similar across both games.
I would guess just from watching that the average high-level tournament AoE4 game is slightly longer than an equivalent high level AoE2 game.
AoE2 has plenty of games that are effectively over late feudal or early castle, and AoE4 has a big late-game stall point because siege is so strong at the moment.
I'm sure so data wonk could answer this empirically using the past few tournaments from both games
AoE2 has plenty of games that are effectively over late feudal or early castle, and AoE4 has a big late-game stall point because siege is so strong at the moment.
I'm sure so data wonk could answer this empirically using the past few tournaments from both games
Frost Giant's game will probably be like Immortals aka Starcraft 2 clones so I don't see them competiting with AoE. Premade maps with 0 eco gameplay doesn't have any appeal to me. Also graphics will probably be weird alien stuff unlike AoE games.
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