Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike "Captn" Kidd)

Mar 13, 2010
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#1


Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1
(by Mike "Captn" Kidd, AI-Designer at Ensemble Studios)

Mike Kidd: "I love playing random civs. But pretty much everyone gets into this situation once in a while: You draw a civilization that you don't play often, say Persians. You try their strong suit and use a small boat boom to launch an early castle age Knight attack. Your opponent has Pikemen waiting, so you shift to plan B, and invest heavily in Swordsmen. You start your attack, upgrade to imperial, and...what's this? No two-handed swordsmen or champs? Argh!

I hate it when that happens.

What I needed was a single-page quick reference, that I could check in a matter of seconds while a random civilization game was in progress. I wanted to know which lines were good for each civilization, without checking for all thirteen technologies that upgrade Cavalry Archers. So I made my first attempt at a scorecard, rating each unit line for each civilization with an A-B-C-D-F grade. I implemented it as a spreadsheet, by assigning values to all the unit upgrades, technologies and civilization bonuses that affect each line. Then I asked for help around the studios.

Karen Swanson (UI designer) pointed out that the ABCDF - system isn't universal, a 1-10 numbering system might be more universal. Kevin Holme and Alex Quintana pointed out some very questionable weightings I had used in the first draft, and completely re-did the numbering system. Kevin also had the suggestion of making "10" mean "all the upgrades and no special bonuses". This allows units that are "better than perfect" to score higher than 10, like those Saracen Camels or Turk Hand Cannoneers. And Greg Street and Kevin Holme also helped out catching several errors and omissions in round 2.

Civilisations Cavalry Archery Infantry Siege Naval Civilisations
Knight Scout Camel Archer Cav. Archer Hand Cannoneer Skirmisher Swordsman Spearman Monk Scorpion Ram Mangonel Bombard Cannon Trebuchet Galley Cannon Galleon Fire Ship Demo Ship
Aztecs [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/aztecs.gif[/img2] -- -- -- 8 -- -- 9 13 9 11 7 10 10 -- 10 6 -- 10 7 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/aztecs.gif[/img2] Aztecs
Britons [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/britons.gif[/img2] 7 7 -- 10 8 -- 11 10 10 8 7 7 8 -- 10 10 -- 10 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/britons.gif[/img2] Britons
Byzantines [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/byzantines.gif[/img2] 8 7 9 10 8 10 11 8 10 11 5 8 7 7 8 10 10 12 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/byzantines.gif[/img2] Byzantines
Celts [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/celts.gif[/img2] 8 7 -- 5 5 -- 7 11 11 6 13 12 12 -- 11 8 8 7 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/celts.gif[/img2] Celts
Chinese [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/chinese.gif[/img2] 8 9 10 10 9 -- 10 10 10 9 11 8 7 -- 8 10 8 7 12 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/chinese.gif[/img2] Chinese
Franks [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/franks.gif[/img2] 11 7 -- 5 5 10 7 9 7 8 10 7 8 10 10 8 8 10 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/franks.gif[/img2] Franks
Goths [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/goths.gif[/img2] 7 9 -- 7 8 10 10 13 12 8 8 5 7 7 8 9 7 8 8 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/goths.gif[/img2] Goths
Huns [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/huns.gif[/img2] 11 10 -- 8 11 -- 9 4 9 8 5 8 5 -- 10 10 8 7 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/huns.gif[/img2] Huns
Japanese [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/japanese.gif[/img2] 6 6 -- 10 9 10 10 13 12 10 10 7 8 -- 13 10 10 10 7 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/japanese.gif[/img2] Japanese
Koreans [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/koreans.gif[/img2] 5 6 -- 10 8 10 10 8 8 8 7 7 13 10 10 10 8 10 -- [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/koreans.gif[/img2] Koreans
Mayans [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/mayans.gif[/img2] -- -- -- 11 -- -- 10 6 10 8 8 8 7 -- 8 10 -- 10 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/mayans.gif[/img2] Mayans
Mongols [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/mongols.gif[/img2] 7 10 9 9 11 -- 9 10 7 4 11 11 11 -- 10 9 9 8 8 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/mongols.gif[/img2] Mongols
Persians [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/persians.gif[/img2] 11 10 10 8 9 10 8 4 10 5 8 8 7 7 8 8 10 10 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/persians.gif[/img2] Persians
Saracens [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/saracens.gif[/img2] 6 10 12 10 11 10 10 10 7 10 7 10 10 10 10 12 10 7 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/saracens.gif[/img2] Saracens
Spanish [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/spanish.gif[/img2] 10 10 -- 7 9 10 10 10 10 10 5 8 7 7 8 10 12 10 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/spanish.gif[/img2] Spanish
Teutons [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/teutons.gif[/img2] 9 6 -- 6 5 10 8 10 10 10 10 7 10 10 10 7 7 8 8 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/teutons.gif[/img2] Teutons
Turks [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/turks.gif[/img2] 8 10 10 9 10 14 7 10 3 8 8 8 5 12 8 10 12 7 10 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/turks.gif[/img2] Turks
Vikings [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/vikings.gif[/img2] 5 5 -- 10 6 -- 10 13 9 5 10 10 8 -- 10 13 11 -- 11 [img2=post_img_ico]http://www.aoczone.net/images/civs.bak/0/vikings.gif[/img2] Vikings
Here's how to use it: Let's say you get Persians in a random civilization game, and your Knight attack isn't working. Looking across the Persian line on the chart, you'll see that their Swordsmen line gets only a 4, so that would be a really bad choice. They get a 10 for all stable units, and also a 10 for Hand Cannoneers. (Dang! That would have been great against those Pikemen!) They also score well in Bombard Cannons and all non-Galleon naval units, and their Archer line is decent enough to use as a complement to whatever I choose. Or suppose you draw Celts. OK, don't bother building an archery range, go for infantry and siege.

Now, the disclaimers. First, this chart is based on post-imperial strength for simplicity. Many units that are rated low here are just fine during castle age, but they run out of steam later. Second, the spread (the range from 10 to the lowest score) is completely arbitrary. The worst Camel line gets a 9, because everyone gets the heavy camel upgrade and the range of effectiveness (excluding Saracens at 12) is pretty minor. Archers, on the other hand, have a huge range, from 5 for the Franks and Celts to 6 for the Spanish, up to 11 for the Mayans. Mayan archers are so dominant over the other three that I felt this spread was justified. Third, the weightings of technologies and bonuses are subjective as well, I believe this summary is pretty accurate (Spanish Archers really do beat Celt Crossbows in imperial), but I'm sure there will be quite a few numbers that not everyone will agree with. Finally, this chart takes into account price discounts and build speed bonuses, but ignores economic bonuses and unique units, again for simplicity, and because economic and UU- bonuses get into "apples-and-oranges" situations pretty quickly. So, the Huns DO get credit for their lower-cost Cavalry Archers, but the Celts don't get any extra credit for their more efficient woodcutting.

I hope you find this chart useful, especially if it encourages you to explore the wonderful world of random civs. Good luck, and good gaming!"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Mar 29, 2010
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#2
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

Man, nice utility ^^ I believe this can be useful for player under 2k. Maybe for 2+k because it can give some ideas :D

Wow, this gave me right now an awesome idea, we can make a calculator for counting enemy. For example u put in calculator u civ and civ of opponent. Then u put amount of his units: archers, knts, spears... Amount of ur resourses+ numbers of willagers on each resourses... And the calculator gives u information what is best answer of units u can make to count opponent... Hehe, yeah I know it sounds like imposible SF, there is many other parameters, but once day maybe we make something like that :smile:
 
Jun 10, 2010
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#3
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

eh too bad whoever made this was a noob...i think it could be done alot better...i see some flaws..but i guess it could be helpful to someone, im sure id be amazed at how many players dont know tech tree
 
Mar 29, 2010
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#4
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

hehe, yeah, maybe Mongs could get higher mark in cav archers than huns and sara.

I reccomend:
cav archers:
Mongs=13
huns =12
sara=11

and some people wouldnt agree about koreans and celts onagers, I think should be equal, dunno :smile: Also, sometimes Mong's onagers can overcount Korean's onagers cuz ability to move faster(if there is good micro of player)


I reccomend:
onagers:
Celts=12
Korean=12
Mongs=12

Also, its noticeable, there are not Elite castle units included... Well in this concept doesn't fit to include Castle units, but it has huge effect on civ abilities.

Anyways, I think this was nice job, and great idea^^, can improve ofc, but this first table as idea was very nice
 
Jun 10, 2010
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#5
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

actually if we are considering post imp only, saracen >> huns in ca, saracen CA have full archer armor in Blacksmith AND have parthenian tactics, there are many other things id disagree with but i wont go into all of it.
 

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Jun 10, 2010
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Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

the fact you focused on 1 line of my post makes you the noob, and im sure it was a noob who came up with that quote you have there :smile:
 
Mar 13, 2010
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#8
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

^^ With all due respect to your gaming experience and knowledge, if you read carefully what the man who wrote the article said, you`d understand better :wink:

For your CA example - the only advantage of Saracen CA is that they have full archer armor (Huns miss ring archer armor), while both do have Parthian Tactics. But, Huns have the advantage of cheaper CA, and they said it`s counted in the grade, too. About Mongols, they miss ring archer armor, too, but they have CA that fire 20% faster - so I guess the equal grades are fair enough for all of them :wink:

Of course there are many things to be considered, and that top players will count on their experience rather than some table stats, but it clearly says what is that table meant for - to provide quick help when you don`t have experience in playing certain civs (which means you`re not a top player, at least not with that civ). For that use, I think it`s very, very good :wink:
 
Jun 10, 2010
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#9
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

HOLY SHIT IM SAYING ID MAKE SOME TWEEKS TO IT, BUT I ALSO SAID ITS VERY HELPFUL FOR PPL WHO DONT KNOW ALL CIVS TECH TREES, HOWEVER I DO SO MAYBE IM COMING OFF DICKISH. BUT TO SAY THE PERSON WHO WROTE THIS ISNT A NOOB IS BEING IGNORANT

"Let's say you get Persians in a random civilization game, and your Knight attack isn't working. Looking across the Persian line on the chart, you'll see that their Swordsmen line gets only a 4, so that would be a really bad choice. They get a 10 for all stable units, and also a 10 for Hand Cannoneers. (Dang! That would have been great against those Pikemen!) They also score well in Bombard Cannons and all non-Galleon naval units, and their Archer line is decent enough to use as a complement to whatever I choose. Or suppose you draw Celts. OK, don't bother building an archery range, go for infantry and siege."

-- CASE AND POINT.

GOOD TO KNOW THE SITE ADMIN IS THE BIGGEST FLAMER ON THE SITE....and a backstabber
 
Mar 13, 2010
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#10
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

I wasn`t talking just to you, but to [EIF]BokiSergy, too, and I don`t know why did you get upset (if it was because of my post) - I just tried to explain what was the man`s main idea - he said what he said - that he had problems playing with certain civs he didn`t know so well -> so he was not an expert player at that time (or maybe he just wanted to create this for those that aren`t experts yet, having in mind how he felt before? :wink: ). If he`s a noob, that`s pretty arguable... unless everyone that isn`t 2k is a noob :wink: He also said that the grade spread is completely arbitrary, while some people might not agree with some of the numbers - as we had here.

For those that didn`t quite understand from the first post - the table was created by the people from "Ensemble Studios", those same people that created the game in the first place. Maybe they didn`t play it so long as some of expert players we know, but we can`t deny their knowledge of the game itself. The quote you gave is what the original idea was to create it - but that table was updated over, and over again - and it doesn`t mean it`s created by a beginner, but for beginners :wink:

The point is that while the table is probably not perfect (if such table can be made at all, and to satisfy everyone, because even I - you may call me a noob :wink: - showed you why CA`s could get the same grade), its value for players that don`t have the complete tech tree in their heads (and those certainly make a majority) is enormous.

With your first sentences you made all that look worthless, you said - "eh too bad whoever made this was a noob...i think it could be done alot better...i see some flaws..". What you said after can`t improve the bad impression of those first words. If a beginner reads your post, and sees your rating, he`ll think that table is worthless indeed - and that is just not true.

As I said - maybe expert players would made some corrections to it (and it`s pretty questionable if they could 100% agree among themselves), but this table is not meant for experts. It`s made for regular (or even casual) players, for those that enjoy playing random civs even if they don`t know all their strengths/weaknesses - yet.

I don`t know if your last sentence was meant for me, but I didn`t understand it.

While some of your posts seem pretty immature, I greatly appreciate your thoughts regarding AoC, and as you would probably say yourself after some of your posts - chill out, we`re here to have fun :wink:
 
Mar 13, 2010
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#12
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

Wow, this gave me right now an awesome idea, we can make a calculator for counting enemy. For example u put in calculator u civ and civ of opponent. Then u put amount of his units: archers, knts, spears... Amount of ur resourses+ numbers of willagers on each resourses... And the calculator gives u information what is best answer of units u can make to count opponent... Hehe, yeah I know it sounds like imposible SF, there is many other parameters, but once day maybe we make something like that :smile:
Sounds as a nice idea... too bad that your opponent will probably gg you while you enter all the variables needed for calculations :D I imagine someone typing all the data while his villagers die screaming in the meantime. Or you can use the force of "Pause" key 8-)

But for those that still don`t have such a calculator in their head (as myself), it would be a very neat tool, if possible :smile: If data would be used directly from the game (rather then manually typing it in) it might work, but I guess it would be almost as a hack then, ruining the point of playing for fun and experience :P

I agree with Buga and Pkz, even the first step to make such a table isn't perfect, there is no reason to reject the idea. It might evolute, and with some upgrades, might be useful even for pro player.
I`m afraid that such a table can`t be created for pro players :frown: Just because everyone will argue about the system used to value things, like why did you chose this over that. You may try, it will surely be a great and nice work and I support it, but be prepared on negative comments and long discussions, too :frown:

Maybe pro players don`t need such tables after all...? :wink:
 
Mar 13, 2010
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#14

UnknownCondoM

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#16
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

eh too bad whoever made this was a noob...i think it could be done alot better...i see some flaws..but i guess it could be helpful to someone, im sure id be amazed at how many players dont know tech tree
It was made waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in early aoc. He was captn_kidd or something, good aoe/ror player then begun working for ES during the development of aok. Not sure if he was ever good at aok though.
 
Jul 3, 2008
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#17
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

HOLY SHIT IM SAYING ID MAKE SOME TWEEKS TO IT, BUT I ALSO SAID ITS VERY HELPFUL FOR PPL WHO DONT KNOW ALL CIVS TECH TREES, HOWEVER I DO SO MAYBE IM COMING OFF DICKISH. BUT TO SAY THE PERSON WHO WROTE THIS ISNT A NOOB IS BEING IGNORANT

"Let's say you get Persians in a random civilization game, and your Knight attack isn't working. Looking across the Persian line on the chart, you'll see that their Swordsmen line gets only a 4, so that would be a really bad choice. They get a 10 for all stable units, and also a 10 for Hand Cannoneers. (Dang! That would have been great against those Pikemen!) They also score well in Bombard Cannons and all non-Galleon naval units, and their Archer line is decent enough to use as a complement to whatever I choose. Or suppose you draw Celts. OK, don't bother building an archery range, go for infantry and siege."

-- CASE AND POINT.

GOOD TO KNOW THE SITE ADMIN IS THE BIGGEST FLAMER ON THE SITE....and a backstabber
or, just maybe, this was designed in the early days of AoC when things were much different (such as the differences in 1.0c and vanilla AoC)
 
Jul 3, 2008
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#19
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

wtf, i swear when i made my post i didn't see condom's lol
 
Mar 29, 2010
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#20
Re: Civilisation - Scorecard Version 2.1 (by Mike Kidd)

Sounds as a nice idea... too bad that your opponent will probably gg you while you enter all the variables needed for calculations :D I imagine someone typing all the data while his villagers die screaming in the meantime. Or you can use the force of "Pause" key 8-)

But for those that still don`t have such a calculator in their head (as myself), it would be a very neat tool, if possible :smile: If data would be used directly from the game (rather then manually typing it in) it might work, but I guess it would be almost as a hack then, ruining the point of playing for fun and experience :P
1111111111

Well, I also need to have a Daut's chip in head for calculating what to do in game :smile: with an "AOC Accelerator"
LOL man, I didn't mean to use that calculator in real-time of course :D Maybe for some experiments, or simulations :smile:

Well, u are right, any kind of that calculator would be a noob :smile: Tooooo many parameters ^^
 

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