BoA3 | Discussion

[OGN]

I don't agree with the speeches that tournaments are asking more and more of the players.

Look at what is being done on the much more popular gaming scene. If we want to evolve in the right direction, everyone has to make an effort, organizers, players, casters...

Today there is not a tournament where a player does not give up without reason, arrive late, or try to renegotiate rules already established from the beginning.

Someone above said that there should be a union for the players? I say we need more rigor from everyone to keep moving forward and start being taken seriously, maybe someone other than RedBull?

We're not lucky enough to have a big enough scene to afford the whims of stars (I'm not aiming at Daniel by saying this).

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

He shouldve told the admin if that was the case. Why wouldnt he?

Idk, ask him

 

[JayGould]

I don't agree with the speeches that tournaments are asking more and more of the players.

Look at what is being done on the much more popular gaming scene. If we want to evolve in the right direction, everyone has to make an effort, organizers, players, casters...

Today there is not a tournament where a player does not give up without reason, arrive late, or try to renegotiate rules already established from the beginning.

Someone above said that there should be a union for the players? I say we need more rigor from everyone to keep moving forward and start being taken seriously, maybe not someone other than RedBull?

We're not lucky enough to have a big enough scene to afford the whims of stars (I'm not aiming at Daniel by saying this).

Yes. Also nobody forces you as a player to play tournaments. If you think you are being asked too much, just don't sign up in the first place. Or organize your own tournament and put your own money down for the prize pool.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

I don't agree with the speeches that tournaments are asking more and more of the players.

Look at what is being done on the much more popular gaming scene. If we want to evolve in the right direction, everyone has to make an effort, organizers, players, casters...

Today there is not a tournament where a player does not give up without reason, arrive late, or try to renegotiate rules already established from the beginning.

Someone above said that there should be a union for the players? I say we need more rigor from everyone to keep moving forward and start being taken seriously, maybe not someone other than RedBull?

We're not lucky enough to have a big enough scene to afford the whims of stars (I'm not aiming at Daniel by saying this).

Our beloved pros clearly miss the times when they were allowed to arrive 1 hour late

 

[Tarsiz]

I don't agree with the speeches that tournaments are asking more and more of the players.

Look at what is being done on the much more popular gaming scene. If we want to evolve in the right direction, everyone has to make an effort, organizers, players, casters...

Today there is not a tournament where a player does not give up without reason, arrive late, or try to renegotiate rules already established from the beginning.

Someone above said that there should be a union for the players? I say we need more rigor from everyone to keep moving forward and start being taken seriously, maybe someone other than RedBull?

We're not lucky enough to have a big enough scene to afford the whims of stars (I'm not aiming at Daniel by saying this).

While that's true, I think it is also fair to consider the players' point of view: since our game isn't big enough to sustain a true professional scene yet, there are many of them who cannot afford to play Age of Empires full time because they need to work (especially considering the fact that many pros tend to be 30+ and have families to take care of as well).

In BoA the players are expected to play at times that might not suit all time zones, and during weekdays. It's not necessarily unreasonable to expect they will make an effort, but at the same time, nobody wins if the players cannot cope with the admins' demands.

 

[paradox303]

I don't agree with the speeches that tournaments are asking more and more of the players.

Look at what is being done on the much more popular gaming scene. If we want to evolve in the right direction, everyone has to make an effort, organizers, players, casters...

Today there is not a tournament where a player does not give up without reason, arrive late, or try to renegotiate rules already established from the beginning.

Someone above said that there should be a union for the players? I say we need more rigor from everyone to keep moving forward and start being taken seriously, maybe someone other than RedBull?

We're not lucky enough to have a big enough scene to afford the whims of stars (I'm not aiming at Daniel by saying this).

People talking about player welfare, people need to start thinking about admin welfare.

 

[TheCapybara]

Ultimately there's going to have to be some give and take from both players and tournament organisers. Some things which stand out:

• Players need to improve their organisation and commitment in terms of respecting schedules they've agreed to (no more whinging about 'but I was only three minutes late' after turning up beyond the 20-minute grace period or whatever). Stop starting ranked games 10 minutes before a tournament set.
• Players also need to start reading handbooks before the start of tournaments and raising concerns about settings before an issue occurs (and also to not be pausing to check the laming rules on the day). I have a lot of sympathy with admins for the number of times they receive pressing questions mid-way through a tournament about something which was in the handbook and clear from the very beginning.
• Players need to respect decisions made within the bounds of the rules laid out for a tournament. Giving admins and other players crap for acting within the tournament rules is tiresome and reflects poorly on those who do it. Too often the pages of AoEZone or Discord channels are filled with players flaming admins/opponents for stuff they were responsible for themselves. If they don't like the rules, raise it ahead of time or feed it back constructively.

On the flip side, organisers need to show more respect for the livelihood which many players rely on outside of the game. Very few players are supported by the game full time, and especially not just by tournament money alone.

• Expecting players to work around the streamer's schedule beyond maybe finals and (possibly) semi-finals is, generally speaking, too much, especially for team games where the talent pool is dipping even further into the non-professional player base. This works for games like CS:GO or LoL because the players are full-time. Start paying players thousands of dollars and/or give them weeks of notice and they can be expected more to revolve their schedule around tournaments, otherwise players have to be given flexibility to manage things themselves.
• Move away from the Eurocentric schedules. Asian, American and Oceanic players frequently get shafted by schedules revolving around the European 11am to 9pm period (give or take a couple of hours). Whether it's the weekend qualifiers or live tournament sets, I really pity the damage done to many people's sleep schedules (and health) if they're to have any hope of participating.
• If there are settings or requirements which are potentially controversial, highlight them, put a big circle around them and make these clear to tournament entrants. Enter dialogue with them so that people can navigate issues early and openly. Leaving them in small print in the handbook and then being surprised when people take issue is asking for trouble.

 

[akku]

Our beloved pros clearly miss the times when they were allowed to arrive 1 hour late

I wonder if Vietnam match could've happened if there was some flexibility in timings...
IMO, if it was really urgent for Bact, if all parties agreed the match could've been postposed. At least Bact gave a reason here.

Also, what's the work schedule in Vietnam lol?
The match would've started after 8PM in India, and Vietnam is east to India.

 

[Dusk2Dawn]

Ultimately there's going to have to be some give and take from both players and tournament organisers. Some things which stand out:

• Players need to improve their organisation and commitment in terms of respecting schedules they've agreed to (no more whinging about 'but I was only three minutes late' after turning up beyond the 20-minute grace period or whatever). Stop starting ranked games 10 minutes before a tournament set.
• Players also need to start reading handbooks before the start of tournaments and raising concerns about settings before an issue occurs (and also to not be pausing to check the laming rules on the day). I have a lot of sympathy with admins for the number of times they receive pressing questions mid-way through a tournament about something which was in the handbook and clear from the very beginning.
• Players need to respect decisions made within the bounds of the rules laid out for a tournament. Giving admins and other players crap for acting within the tournament rules is tiresome and reflects poorly on those who do it. Too often the pages of AoEZone or Discord channels are filled with players flaming admins/opponents for stuff they were responsible for themselves. If they don't like the rules, raise it ahead of time or feed it back constructively.

On the flip side, organisers need to show more respect for the livelihood which many players rely on outside of the game. Very few players are supported by the game full time, and especially not just by tournament money alone.

• Expecting players to work around the streamer's schedule beyond maybe finals and (possibly) semi-finals is, generally speaking, too much, especially for team games where the talent pool is dipping even further into the non-professional player base. This works for games like CS:GO or LoL because the players are full-time. Start paying players thousands of dollars and/or give them weeks of notice and they can be expected more to revolve their schedule around tournaments, otherwise players have to be given flexibility to manage things themselves.
• Move away from the Eurocentric schedules. Asian, American and Oceanic players frequently get shafted by schedules revolving around the European 11am to 9pm period (give or take a couple of hours). Whether it's the weekend qualifiers or live tournament sets, I really pity the damage done to many people's sleep schedules (and health) if they're to have any hope of participating.
• If there are settings or requirements which are potentially controversial, highlight them, put a big circle around them and make these clear to tournament entrants. Enter dialogue with them so that people can navigate issues early and openly. Leaving them in small print in the handbook and then being surprised when people take issue is asking for trouble.

many replies have already show that there is no discussion: "don't like it, don't sign up!"

 

[Paulad]

On the flip side, organisers need to show more respect for the livelihood which many players rely on outside of the game. Very few players are supported by the game full time, and especially not just by tournament money alone.

• Expecting players to work around the streamer's schedule beyond maybe finals and (possibly) semi-finals is, generally speaking, too much, especially for team games where the talent pool is dipping even further into the non-professional player base. This works for games like CS:GO or LoL because the players are full-time. Start paying players thousands of dollars and/or give them weeks of notice and they can be expected more to revolve their schedule around tournaments, otherwise players have to be given flexibility to manage things themselves.
• Move away from the Eurocentric schedules. Asian, American and Oceanic players frequently get shafted by schedules revolving around the European 11am to 9pm period (give or take a couple of hours). Whether it's the weekend qualifiers or live tournament sets, I really pity the damage done to many people's sleep schedules (and health) if they're to have any hope of participating.
• If there are settings or requirements which are potentially controversial, highlight them, put a big circle around them and make these clear to tournament entrants. Enter dialogue with them so that people can navigate issues early and openly. Leaving them in small print in the handbook and then being surprised when people take issue is asking for trouble.

I totally disagree on this.
S tier tourney are realy rewarding nowadays. Top 16 kotd earned more than 1000$ and semi finalist 5k. Boa 3 is a bit different (TG) but prizepool is still huge. In this case, players HAVE TO manage their time/schedule if they want to earn 1-5k$ in semi-final to fit well with the host/admins who organized the tourney.

Honestly, you realy think that its to much asked to play at a set time to potentially earn 1k$ or even 500?

Some players mention here that they have to do more and more to play a tourney, but for me, they also forget that prizepool become bigger and bigger and organizers works hardrr than they did in the past to provide the most professional tourney they can and to allow player winning more money.

 

[Degaussed]

I totally disagree on this.
S tier tourney are realy rewarding nowadays. Top 16 kotd earned more than 1000$ and semi finalist 5k. Boa 3 is a bit different (TG) but prizepool is still huge. In this case, players HAVE TO manage their time/schedule if they want to earn 1-5k$ in semi-final to fit well with the host/admins who organized the tourney.

Honestly, you realy think that its to much asked to play at a set time to potentially earn 1k$ or even 500?

Some players mention here that they have to do more and more to play a tourney, but for me, they also forget that prizepool become bigger and bigger and organizers works hardrr than they did in the past to provide the most professional tourney they can and to allow player winning more money.

A team gets $1,250 for getting to the quarter finals of this tournament. If you have four people in your team and it's split four ways, that's $312.50 each. In terms of prize money, yes that's a lot compared to what we were getting several years ago, but given the huge cost of living crisis that currently exists it's simply not enough to expect players to *not* have full times jobs which they have to work around.

 

[TheCapybara]

Honestly, you realy think that its to much asked to play at a set time to potentially earn 1k$ or even 500?

Plain and simple, yes, for many parts of the world. Not unless you're providing plenty of notice that someone is definitely playing at that time (meaning at minimum two weeks, more reasonably four or more). A lot of people don't have generous annual leave from work, many more have requirements where they have to give a certain amount of notice for annual leave. Forcing people to play at set times (especially week days, doubly especially typical work hours on week days) is a way to exclude non-professionals from the game and shrink the player base.

 

[Paulad]

Plain and simple, yes, for many parts of the world. Not unless you're providing plenty of notice that someone is definitely playing at that time (meaning at minimum two weeks, more reasonably four or more). A lot of people don't have generous annual leave from work, many more have requirements where they have to give a certain amount of notice for annual leave. Forcing people to play at set times (especially week days, doubly especially typical work hours on week days) is a way to exclude non-professionals from the game and shrink the player base.

So the question is, for you, how much a player should earn to play at a set time?

When you organize a tourney, it's a pain to provide the best schedule which fit for everyone. If players can not manage to be there to earn money, they should consider not playing the tourney.

And it's the same for every games, some mentioned LOL, CS etc, but before getting pro contract, players are "forced" to do a lot of sacrifice to play in minor tourney/lan event etc, and they often earn less than aoe2 players.

Also, every good players have a chance to shine on Aoe2 tourneys, if they are good. It's always free to subscribe and if you have the right level to play, you are allowed to.

Also, I want to add that if sponsors donate money, that's for visibility in return. I'm not sure of that cause I'm not a streamer, but I think recorded games doesn't give the same viewers number and as a viewer myself, it's realy not the same taste to watch a recorded game instead of live.
So, my point is that organizers and players have to do their part. And for me, for the organizer side, they already do this by providing so much big tourney nowadays. Those tourney need months of work.

If all we can ask for a player is to play, the balance is wrong.

 

[TheCapybara]

I'll look to answer things in order here.

So the question is, for you, how much a player should earn to play at a set time?

When you organize a tourney, it's a pain to provide the best schedule which fit for everyone. If players can not manage to be there to earn money, they should consider not playing the tourney.

Hard to give a specific answer to this, but broadly speaking if you want players to dance to your tune as an organiser, you've got to remunerate them as if it's a full-time job. Expecting players to move their entire life around for weeks and use leave at short notice for $100 or $500 or whatever is not reasonable for a lot of people who work full-time or study full-time. Yes, of course players have to balance their commitments and decide whether they can make time to play these events, but organisers can make it easier by not putting strict requirements on the schedule.

And it's the same for every games, some mentioned LOL, CS etc, but before getting pro contract, players are "forced" to do a lot of sacrifice to play in minor tourney/lan event etc, and they often earn less than aoe2 players.

Also, every good players have a chance to shine on Aoe2 tourneys, if they are good. It's always free to subscribe and if you have the right level to play, you are allowed to.

I'm not denying people have to make decisions and potential sacrifices in order to reach the top level of something. It happens in sports where people pay for the privilege at amateur level until they get 'discovered' and can start to earn. But an amateur or semi-professional sports league would seriously struggle if it starting putting fixtures in the middle of the working day for vast numbers of people. That's why most play at the weekend or in the evenings.

Also, I want to add that if sponsors donate money, that's for visibility in return. I'm not sure of that cause I'm not a streamer, but I think recorded games doesn't give the same viewers number and as a viewer myself, it's realy not the same taste to watch a recorded game instead of live.
So, my point is that organizers and players have to do their part. And for me, for the organizer side, they already do this by providing so much big tourney nowadays. Those tourney need months of work.

If all we can ask for a player is to play, the balance is wrong.

The live vs recorded games debate has been covered many times before. There are benefits and drawbacks to both. I completely understand and respect why live games generate more enthusiasm for a lot of viewers - there are times when they do for me, too. At the same time, it's about what is reasonable. Playing from recs offers more flexibility and scope for the players to play under ideal conditions (i.e. not in the middle of the night or two minutes after finishing work), and can provide a significantly better viewing experience (e.g. not having to wait for technical issues from a player or admin restarts interfering).

Overall, my big point is that it's unreasonable to expect players (especially non-professional players) to shift their lives around the schedule of a tournament organiser's whims, especially on short notice. In the case of BoA, players were given about 3/4/5 days' notice ahead of which day they were playing. That is completely inadequate for arranging annual leave from a lot of jobs, it could cause problems with arranging child care for those with families. I hope it's a requirement which is not repeated for future tournaments. The trade off of added features like the webcams and live PoV seems completely inadequate for the disruption to the players.

 

[Paulad]

I'll look to answer things in order here.


Hard to give a specific answer to this, but broadly speaking if you want players to dance to your tune as an organiser, you've got to remunerate them as if it's a full-time job. Expecting players to move their entire life around for weeks and use leave at short notice for $100 or $500 or whatever is not reasonable for a lot of people who work full-time or study full-time. Yes, of course players have to balance their commitments and decide whether they can make time to play these events, but organisers can make it easier by not putting strict requirements on the schedule.


I'm not denying people have to make decisions and potential sacrifices in order to reach the top level of something. It happens in sports where people pay for the privilege at amateur level until they get 'discovered' and can start to earn. But an amateur or semi-professional sports league would seriously struggle if it starting putting fixtures in the middle of the working day for vast numbers of people. That's why most play at the weekend or in the evenings.


The live vs recorded games debate has been covered many times before. There are benefits and drawbacks to both. I completely understand and respect why live games generate more enthusiasm for a lot of viewers - there are times when they do for me, too. At the same time, it's about what is reasonable. Playing from recs offers more flexibility and scope for the players to play under ideal conditions (i.e. not in the middle of the night or two minutes after finishing work), and can provide a significantly better viewing experience (e.g. not having to wait for technical issues from a player or admin restarts interfering).

Overall, my big point is that it's unreasonable to expect players (especially non-professional players) to shift their lives around the schedule of a tournament organiser's whims, especially on short notice. In the case of BoA, players were given about 3/4/5 days' notice ahead of which day they were playing. That is completely inadequate for arranging annual leave from a lot of jobs, it could cause problems with arranging child care for those with families. I hope it's a requirement which is not repeated for future tournaments. The trade off of added features like the webcams and live PoV seems completely inadequate for the disruption to the players.

You are totaly right about BOA3. When I wrote this, I had in my head most of the tourneys that occurs during week-ends since we digressed. If players can't play on a set time during week days, recorded game has to be an option. But for week-ends, If you can't block time in your calendar to earn money by playing, just don't sign-up.

 

[oozkan]

I missed Danielgate drama, feeling a bit bad about it. But it is interesting too see that players are supporting each other while streamers are also supporting each other on the other hand. We might see first player union and lockout of AOE soon, let's sign a CBA.

About the matter, rules are rules, don't sign up if you are not gonna follow them. Since Daniel didn't even gave a reason about why he is not using his webcam, Chrazini is the last person to blame here. Every time you signup to a tournament, you sign a contract with organizer actually, after that point it is up to organizers to be lenient or not, cannot be blamed for chosing both direction.

 

[The_ChinChilla]

Did Jordan say "north hand side" during co-cast?!
Geez, how many hands do pro AOE players have?!

 

[TheCapybara]

You are totaly right about BOA3. When I wrote this, I had in my head most of the tourneys that occurs during week-ends since we digressed. If players can't play on a set time during week days, recorded game has to be an option. But for week-ends, If you can't block time in your calendar to earn money by playing, just don't sign-up.

I would say even here there's a balance to be had, depending on the type of tournament. We've had a few of those weekend, hectic events with back-to-back games. They offer their own excitement through the sheer volume of games and constant action and, yeah, obviously you don't sign up to those if you can't commit to those weekends, of course not.

At the same time, if you have only those types of tournaments and/or force players to play only at set times on weekends, you risk excluding people who might have jobs which require weekend shifts. Plus the times of these events continually screw over players from certain parts of the world (particularly East Asia and Oceania).

Again, the fundamental issue at hand is giving players flexibility as often as possible (let them schedule themselves within a set week timeframe, as is standard for lots of events), or provide lots of notice so that it's more reasonable for players to make arrangements for leave/childcare/rearranging social events.

 

[dataidiot]

Also, what's the work schedule in Vietnam lol?
The match would've started after 8PM in India, and Vietnam is east to India.

"Would you prefer to play at your favorite time and play for potentially earning x or stay up late and earn 2x just for showing up(possibly earning much more if you win)?" - I bet most players would choose the second option, especially considering how much a few dollars can buy at some countries.

 

[Pevio]

I just want to put it out there that the Saturday quarterfinals were absolutely amazing. I'm sad for the teams that lost, but the teams that won played really well and deserved to move on. I've been enjoying the entire tournament, but these sets really proved how good the maps are and how crazy some games can get. Even Savannah (reskinned Arabia) had two good matches on it today. GL and aM are the favorites still, but I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them miss the finals.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

roly ****, I'm watching the VOD now and Dave really had an epic entrance, what a chad

 

[Faultier321]

I just want to put it out there that the Saturday quarterfinals were absolutely amazing. I'm sad for the teams that lost, but the teams that won played really well and deserved to move on. I've been enjoying the entire tournament, but these sets really proved how good the maps are and how crazy some games can get. Even Savannah (reskinned Arabia) had two good matches on it today. GL and aM are the favorites still, but I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them miss the finals.

Just finished watching. Still cant believe the series was decided by loom kicking in 10 seconds too late. I feel a bit sad for Modri

 

[RobChang]

Did Jordan say "north hand side" during co-cast?!
Geez, how many hands do pro AOE players have?!

four

 

[akku]

"Would you prefer to play at your favorite time and play for potentially earning x or stay up late and earn 2x just for showing up(possibly earning much more if you win)?" - I bet most players would choose the second option, especially considering how much a few dollars can buy at some countries.

Not sure what your point is here.

My point was that Bact apparently couldn't play because of "work related" issues. Well, interesting....cause he would be working at like 10-11PM Vietnam time, on a Friday?

 

[akku]

Amazing Quarterfinals between Amigos and Los Machos.

I'm a big Slam fanboy, and like Amigos as a whole as well.

Sad to see Amigos go
I will miss the Valas interviews 11