BoA3 | Discussion

[Liamsmalley7]

I didn't catch the game and this is the first I've heard of this situation but surely there was a good reason why he didn't turn on his webcam, right? Like Nicov mentioned, nobody is going to just decide not to use their webcam with all the stakes on the line like in mYinsanity's situation.

And like some others have mentioned, I don't particularly care much for the webcams. It's cool and all but if it starts getting to the point where the necessary inclusion of the webcams is taking something away from the actual gameplay, I'd rather just not have them.

 

[Michaerbse]

As a viewer, I couldn't care less about the players webcam.

While you as a pro player don't care, the average viewer may very well care for the webcam. I for my part love to see the players' reactions regularly, not necessarily during the entire game but at least for important situations and gg calls.

Regarding the suggestion on applying a fine: Rule violations are not service offerings that you can purchase whenver you feel like it. Like "today I'm having a bad day so I'm gonna buy 'not putting webcam on' for 20 bucks, 'late arrival' for 50 bucks, 'insulting my opponent' for 80 bucks and lastly 'picking a civ that was not drafted' for 120 bucks."
Fines are applied after the fact when nothing can be changed anymore. If admins have the option to prevent rule violations in first place, they will always go for that and rightfully so.

 

[RobChang]

It's based on current seeding. If first vs fourth or second vs third is not possible ( they played already) its first vs third and second vs fourth (talking among the 4 teams in the deciders).

But why is it in group A then seed 1 vs seed 2 and seed 3 vs seed 4?

Ok, clarified after reading @dodageka s reply

 

[chicklet]

You seem to ignore the fact that he could, in fact, stream with a webcam, but chose not to. It's a fine line. Once we allow one person to not use the webcam, just because, what stops the next person? No one really wants to be on webcam, so how is that fair to the rest of the players? You don't need to be a full-time Age of Empires player to show yourself on a webcam.

Feeling bad for someone that actively does not want to follow rules that they have agreed to is beyond me. We're not forcing anyone to do anything. You may or may not agree with the terms of the tournament, but they've been clear from the beginning and should not come as a surprise to anyone. Players that sign up for the tournament agree to these terms, and they will be expected to follow the rules stated - who would have thought? I know, baffling.

If these requirements are so absolutely outrageous, there's the option of not registering for the event.

The sentiments in this reply don't sit well with me.

Recent signs indicate that tournament organiser and admin requirements - in the name of putting on a 'good show' - are taking precedence over player welfare.

The line of 'you know the rules... If you don't like them, don't sign-up', is disingenuous. The allure of thousands of $'s can force people to do things they are uncomfortable with, meaning players can effectively be held to ransom by the rules.

"If you want prize money then show us your face at all times, let us access your PoV, we need to listen to all your conversations and if the game goes long (no time limit) you must p*ss in a bucket because pausing for the toilet is strictly forbidden".

All these rules aren't even enhancing the experience for this viewer. I've enjoyed BoA3, but while it hasn't gotten to the business end yet, I don't prefer it to BoA2. Face-cam has a payoff once in a series (maybe), PoV offers nothing (by the time the view is switched the action has moved), I haven't heard any team conversation and I prefer recs, so pausing doesn't matter.

I understand the need for rules and how frustrating it could be for an organiser if players don't follow (or even read them), but feels like it's heading too far in the wrong direction. I'm not surprised players are pushing back and I hope more stand-up.

 

[Rorarimbo]

But why is it in group A then seed 1 vs seed 2 and seed 3 vs seed 4?

Ok, clarified after reading @dodageka s reply

Yeah. He phrased it better.

 

[Tendo]

Always dislike it when Tournament-Rules are discussed while a Tournament is ongoing.

Like everyone knew more then long enough before to start a discussion and share theyre thoughts with the Organizers, I guess that's also why we can't hear the Players even though it was announced, because it was proly discussed before the Tournament started.

You can also easily wait for ~2 weeks to start this discussion after the Tournament finished if you want to share you're thoughts in terms of improving future Tournaments, because then Tournament Organizer/Admins have time to think about future Tournaments.

 

[Potkeny]

Always dislike it when Tournament-Rules are discussed while a Tournament is ongoing.

I also dislike when rules (including exact map version) are changed mid-tournament, but considering that happens, I don't see why discussing those rules hoping that they might be changed for "better" is much worse.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

I didn't catch the game and this is the first I've heard of this situation but surely there was a good reason why he didn't turn on his webcam, right?

YEah, probably a bad hair day, we've all been there.

 

[Memeluke]

Pressuring people who clearly don't want to show their face to stream their webcam is kinda ****ed up. Also it's not like I absolutely need to see Daniel looking at a screen for 2 hours to appreciate some good tournament games.

 

[Lokalo]

Well so far reason why he didn't want to put cam was not given. And as I understand from Chrazini that reason was not enough. If i'm correct in previous tournament Memb did let Jordan to not have cam, due he had covid and felt bad, so I imagine this would be possible if something serious like that happened, but again, is really hard to say much without having any reason given.

As for future, I kind of disagree with Nicov's statement. I would predict the opposite result actually, the more non streamers play with cam, the less they will care to put it on. First times always are hardest, many might dislike it, but people get used to stuff, so I would think this cam thing will be smoother in future.

People are fast on changing rules, so far we heard about one player not agreein to put cam out of many without even having a reason why. There always are someone who is not happy with something, here might be not a case if he actually did have a good reason, but if some stuff would be changed because one person doesnt like something, nothing ever would be changed.

 

[Proctologist]

Pressuring people who clearly don't want to show their face to stream their webcam is kinda ****ed up. Also it's not like I absolutely need to see Daniel looking at a screen for 2 hours to appreciate some good tournament games.

Pressure? Didnt that thing sign itself up for this tournament in which it was clearly stated that a webcam is required while playing?
The only pressure here is to the admins that are blamed for organizing a tournament with conditions that they, and apparently a lot of the viewers, enjoy.

 

[Memeluke]

Calling a player "that thing" really shows how much you care about his reasons

 

[paradox303]

Pressuring people who clearly don't want to show their face to stream their webcam is kinda ****ed up. Also it's not like I absolutely need to see Daniel looking at a screen for 2 hours to appreciate some good tournament games.

This view point is kinda ****ed up. He was not pressured and is not a victim here.

Player signs up and agrees to rules.

Player CHOOSES not to stream cam.

Player can not play.

You may not feel like you don’t need to see Daniel for two hours, but the fact is Memb put this rule in place. It’s his tourney and he clearly wants to do something that’s not been done before. Not everyone is going to like it. It’s unfamiliar. I’m not going to get into a debate whether it’s good or not.

But as a tournament organiser he has absolutely every right to insert this rule into sign ups, and admins have every right to enforce a ruling if a player chooses not to adhere to the rules.

 

[TheViper]

I think most players are trying to help put on a good show for these big events we take part in. The better the event, the higher the chance for more future events. However, my first thought is that Daniel was on camera previously in the tourney while playing, did the pre-game interviews, on camera, so if he for whatever reason he doesn't want to disclose, doesn't feel comfortable being on camera this week, I think it's not hard for admins to be a bit lenient for such an important round.

And I do understand that it is tricky, because if you allow this one to slip, others might try to take advantage of it as well. We also don't know if admins were given a reason and decided it was not good enough, so we're still just speculating as to if it was justified or not. I just think that noone would bat an eye if people saw Daniel play without a camera, with the reasoning simply that the admins allowed it. Noone would demand an answer, because they got to see mYi field their best team and play the series as they had prepared, whilst assuming Daniel had provided a fair reason to the admin.

In general players are being asked to do more and more for every event, besides just training and doing their best in the actual tournament. It is fine that we are asked to contribute to the development of the scene on top of providing the high level games, but there should also be a line drawn on where the show takes preference over the actual competition.

 

[Degaussed]

am i the only one who thinks the webcams detract from the stream during the games and offer little outside of them

No, they are just in the way for me. They add nothing to the "show" for me.

 

[Lokalo]

Calling a player "that thing" really shows how much you care about his reasons

Are you trolling or have trouble reading? I didn't call any player anything. Said "this cam thing" meaning anything related to cam, including from connection stuff to players like/dislike having cam on. Are you are Dani fan boy or what's the issue with you?

As for caring about his reasons. Well I'm interested, but I don't see anyone mentioning them and pretty much everything depends on context. If for example he has covid and feels bad, then sure, I would say they should let him play without cam, however if he feels bad team might be better without him, but that's another assumption. If he just feel he is better playing without cam, then that's trash reason and he should have thought about it when signing up.

@TheViper you of course know much more on this topic. Is there much more apart making video/interview and using cam? I mean I know there is stuff like you have to be in discord room with admin or something like that, so admin would be able to pause/restart game. But that's also for players benefit. Curious what else apart that. I understand some players might dislike doing interview quite a lot, but not sure if that's a big deal either. And I understand someone saying cams doesnt give much, but at same time I think pretty much every bigger game nowadays on esport scene have those things, so seems logical people like memb want to try/to move to higher level even if some disagree it is higher level. I feel like people should appretiate more of what memb is trying to do. Maybe those POVs or cams doesn't give much, especially to someone, but at same time if he wouldn't try to push tournaments into higher level we wouldn't have many things yet, well not just memb, but overall.

I feel like POV and cam thing overall is pretty much at starting point in aoe2, so hopefully in future we might have better use of it. For example would be amazing to see some compilation of stuff like for example recently Jordan if im not mistaken against Vinchester noticing he had no balistics for like 50 minutes of the game, that reaction was amazing. Or even seeing Vinchester in recent match losing all xbow to mangonels(maybe 2 of them) and his sad face when he noticed. Basically seeing players for all game might be not as important as they are focused anyway, but being able to see their reactions on such moments is really nice

 

[robo]

Didnt that thing sign itself up for this tournament

He wasnt talking about you @Lokalo

 

[Lokalo]

He wasnt talking about you @Lokalo

Well my bad then, but feel like that happens quite a bit, people should be more specific when directing messages specifically to someone or maybe is just me, idk

 

[robo]

Well my bad then, but feel like that happens quite a bit, people should be more specific when directing messages specifically to someone or maybe is just me, idk

It was the post immediately before his? Not sure why you would assume that he is responding to you

 

[Lokalo]

It was the post immediately before his? Not sure why you would assume that he is responding to you

Well that might look weird if you are reading those messages in a row, but I posted, then saw/read newer post and then he replied and this way is much easier to get into position that i got into as I don't remember fully every word in posts and it kind of did fit my previous message too lol.

 

[SuperskinnyBLS]

literally everyone else put up the camera, whats the big deal for daniel to not do it?

is he really too much of a "I'm too cool for this' hipster kid that doesn't want to do what he's told to?

Pretty much what happened it seems:d even the Finns didn't have a problem with activating their cameras xD

 

[akku]

I love the POV, but don't want it to be an extremely strict rule. And it isn't, which is good.
I've noticed in the tournament stream itself that rarely the POV isn't turned on due to some issue. And Chrazini also said here that the rule is flexible, provided the reasoning is good enough.

Which means either Daniel didn't give a reason; or he did give Chrazini a reason privately and he didn't think it was good enough to bypass the rule.
Was it a good enough reason? Maybe......I can't judge for myself until I hear the reason mysellf.

 

[Influenza]

Needless to say, voice communication, as well as the player's point of view and player cameras, is not going to be on at all times. Small snippets may be shown here and there and not even sure to appear every game.

Just gonna leave this pre-event quote related to this issue here, all the players got jebaited by the admins LUL

 

[Daniel]

And I do understand that it is tricky, because if you allow this one to slip, others might try to take advantage of it as well. We also don't know if admins were given a reason and decided it was not good enough, so we're still just speculating as to if it was justified or not. I just think that noone would bat an eye if people saw Daniel play without a camera, with the reasoning simply that the admins allowed it. Noone would demand an answer, because they got to see mYi field their best team and play the series as they had prepared, whilst assuming Daniel had provided a fair reason to the admin.

I will clarify - I did not provide a reason to Chrazini on DMs as I had a private reason that I do not want to disclose.
I do understand that the decision made was entirely based on the rulebook. I understand that because I did not provide a reason, it is fair for admins to make that call. However, my argument is that games should take priority over cams. Even though the draft of the map pool I was probably only going to play 1-2 games, I would've still liked to participate in the tournament, and therefore asked for a one-time exception, which was denied.
I hope that this clarifies things - guess the discussion should be about whether certain rules could be bypassed due to the importance of the match (and because I have previously complied in kotd/round1 vs AI) if the reasoning wasn't clear (which I did not provide a proper reason).

 

[Chrazini]

Just gonna leave this pre-event quote related to this issue here, all the players got jebaited by the admins LUL

That's true; this was the original plan. Memb found a way to incorporate everything into the stream to be shown at once, which we ended up using instead. Even if we did not plan to show all the webcams at the same time, players would still have to be constantly streaming it, so we had the possibility to show it at any time. This would have changed nothing in this scenario, but I do apologise for the misinformation.